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Recurring issues with this team

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Old
10-09-2013, 12:09 PM
  #51
Raspewtin
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You're not really offering anything up if that's your keep list.
Callahan, Girardi, Nash, Del Zotto, Brassard, all worth something. I do assume if this were to happen though Hank wouldn't stick around.

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10-09-2013, 12:14 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
Callahan, Girardi, Nash, Del Zotto, Brassard, all worth something. I do assume if this were to happen though Hank wouldn't stick around.
Callahan and Girardi are UFAs to be.

Nash is a high price item.


Del Zotto and Brassard are talented player whose careers have been wrought with inconsistent play.

It's the Stepans and McDs that are going to return the packages that jump-stary a rebuild.

And personally, I keep Callahan over Dorsett and/or Zuccarello.

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10-09-2013, 12:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
since a rebuild is being discussed, dear lord please no more rebuilds under Sather. I just, when does it stop? When does Sather FINALLY step down? And just for fun, here are the players I'd keep in a rebuild if we're doing one.

-McDonagh
-Stepan
-Hagelin
-Staal
-Dorsett
-Lundqvist (if he's willing to go through that.)
-Zucca

I wonder if it ever gets to this point.
If you're rebuilding, Lundqvist's time is done here. Zucca can stay through the rebuild, but he's not a building block. Dorsett, I couldn't care either way. He's good for what he is.

I'd keep Staal and McD. They're the towers you can build a D around and Staal is only 26 (if I'm moving one, it's Staal I guess). I'd keep Hagelin and Stepan too I guess. I'd probably keep Callahan to oversee the rebuild a bit, and because he's more valuable to us than in a trade. In the end though, I'm not sure you have to keep anyone, specifically. Those are just the guys I would consider keeping around.

You offer Nash, Girardi, Brass (unless he really picks it up), Lundqvist, DZ, Boyle and everything else and you stock pile picks and actual prospects. Imagine having a guy like Hertl in our system? The two young pillars on defense become the team leaders and, the most important thing from then on, is to develop a culture and philosophy starting with who you're drafting, extending down into being drilled into the young guys in Hartford and finally being followed to the letter by players and staff with the big club. In about 4-5 years, Staal is barely over 30, McD is about 29 and the rest of the club is under 30 and, if the rebuild was successful, ready to rock and roll.

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Old
10-09-2013, 12:17 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
They still look like a team unfamiliar with their new system.

When some players are playing positionally the way it's been ingrained for the last 3 years and other players play positionally the way they're being asked to right now, you end up being a turnover factory as a group. Once everyone is on the same page, we won't see this happen. They aren't yet.
Convenient excuse now - but Tortorella was supposed to turn around the system they'd been playing on a dime during the lockout shortened season. Do I have that right?

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10-09-2013, 12:18 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Callahan and Girardi are UFAs to be.

Nash is a high price item.


Del Zotto and Brassard are talented player whose careers have been wrought with inconsistent play.

It's the Stepans and McDs that are going to return the packages that jump-stary a rebuild.

And personally, I keep Callahan over Dorsett and/or Zuccarello.
I only like the idea of keeping those two because of Zucc's dedication to the organization and how well he's upped his game, and Dorsett because I like the idea of having a really good fourth liner sticking with this team for once. Kind of like Shawn Thornton for the Bruins.

And last season we saw what UFAs to be got teams at the trade deadline, Girardi can fetch a high touted prospect + 1st, same with Callahan. PMD are incredibly overvalued in this league, don't be surprised at the return Del Zotto could get.

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10-09-2013, 12:20 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
I only like the idea of keeping those two because of Zucc's dedication to the organization and how well he's upped his game, and Dorsett because I like the idea of having a really good fourth liner sticking with this team for once. Kind of like Shawn Thornton for the Bruins.

And last season we saw what UFAs to be got teams at the trade deadline, Girardi can fetch a high touted prospect + 1st, same with Callahan. PMD are incredibly overvalued in this league, don't be surprised at the return Del Zotto could get.
I honestly have been amazingly unimpressed/disappointed by Dorsett. When the Gaborik trade happened, everyone on the CBJ board were really upset that Dorsett was included. I haven't seen the guy they were talking about.

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10-09-2013, 12:20 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Convenient excuse now - but Tortorella was supposed to turn around the system they'd been playing on a dime during the lockout shortened season. Do I have that right?
No, you don't. Tortorella needed to adjust his course, not change it. AV is a different coach.

And it isn't an excuse, it's an observation. Also, it's the same observation as has been able to be made about countless other teams working with a vastly different coach from their last one. See Adam Oates last year, to name the most recent example I can think of. I'm not even saying it happens with every coach, but it does happen. From what I've seen, it looks like it's happening here.

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10-09-2013, 12:22 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by PK Pilot 76 View Post
If you're rebuilding, Lundqvist's time is done here. Zucca can stay through the rebuild, but he's not a building block. Dorsett, I couldn't care either way. He's good for what he is.

I'd keep Staal and McD. They're the towers you can build a D around and Staal is only 26 (if I'm moving one, it's Staal I guess). I'd keep Hagelin and Stepan too I guess. I'd probably keep Callahan to oversee the rebuild a bit, and because he's more valuable to us than in a trade. In the end though, I'm not sure you have to keep anyone, specifically. Those are just the guys I would consider keeping around.

You offer Nash, Girardi, Brass (unless he really picks it up), Lundqvist, Cally, Boyle and everything else and you stock pile picks and actual prospects. Imagine having a guy like Hertl in our system? The two young pillars on defense become the team leaders and, the most important thing from then on, is to develop a culture and philosophy starting with who you're drafting, extending down into being drilled into the young guys in Hartford and finally being followed to the letter by players and staff with the big club. In about 4-5 years, Staal is barely over 30, McD is about 29 and the rest of the club is under 30 and, if the rebuild was successful, ready to rock and roll.
Staal and McD are the only Rangers D I would REALLY hate to lose. I'd maybe throw Johnny in there too if he takes strides in his development this season. Like I said to SBOB, I would love for this team to FINALLY have a 4th line guy that sticks to the team and loves being here, instead of a ****** mercenary, so I'd like to keep Dorsett. I also mentioned Lundqvist is conditional, I'd keep him but I have serious doubts he stays. I'd really not like to turn to a rebuild, though

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10-09-2013, 12:24 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I honestly have been amazingly unimpressed/disappointed by Dorsett. When the Gaborik trade happened, everyone on the CBJ board were really upset that Dorsett was included. I haven't seen the guy they were talking about.
I agree with the bolded. I haven't been impressed, but I haven't been terribly disappointed either. Well, I have been disappointed, but only compared to the expectations I had from him coming out of Columbus. His play has been fine. Not impressive, just "fine". He's a good soldier who does what you'd expect from a fourth liner. He skates a bit better and has a bit more offensive than maybe the "average" fourth liner, but otherwise he is exactly what you'd expect of a "good" fourth liner. Not the revelation of a team player, invaluable, fourth liner that CBJ fans advertised. Just good. Certainly not great.

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10-09-2013, 12:30 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I honestly have been amazingly unimpressed/disappointed by Dorsett. When the Gaborik trade happened, everyone on the CBJ board were really upset that Dorsett was included. I haven't seen the guy they were talking about.
Agreed - so far from Dorsett I've seen an uncontrolled player who takes way too many penalties, or a guy thats invisible. He needs to find a happy median between these 2 things.

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10-09-2013, 12:31 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
Staal and McD are the only Rangers D I would REALLY hate to lose. I'd maybe throw Johnny in there too if he takes strides in his development this season. Like I said to SBOB, I would love for this team to FINALLY have a 4th line guy that sticks to the team and loves being here, instead of a ****** mercenary, so I'd like to keep Dorsett. I also mentioned Lundqvist is conditional, I'd keep him but I have serious doubts he stays. I'd really not like to turn to a rebuild, though
I can agree on Dorsett. He certainly doesn't make or break a rebuild so I have no problem keeping him. I don't think he's been great, but he's a good fourth liner with a wee-bit of upside. Staal and McD are really the only Rangers, period, I would hate to lose. I mean, Cally and Lundqvist as well, but with Lundy it's a kind of bitter sweet, he deserves better kind of feeling. With Cally, I love the guy; I kind of wish he'd never gotten the C. Not because he's bad, but because if he could just do his thing and be Cally without the C... I don't know, I feel like it taints him somehow. Let someone else be the guy who has to speak up and "lead" in a visible fashion. Let Cally just be the guy who goes out and does it regardless of having a letter. He just goes out and plays and is a leader through his play. I don't think he's a verbal leader. I liked him better with an A, at best. But yeah, I'd keep Cally if he could be the vet to oversee the rebuild. It would hurt to lose him.

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10-09-2013, 12:32 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Agreed - so far from Dorsett I've seen an uncontrolled player who takes way too many penalties, or a guy thats invisible. He needs to find a happy median between these 2 things.
I'm not going to pretend that I remember all of Dorsetts penalties, but it seems to me as they weren't even "good" penalties meaning they were hooking/holding/interference instead message penalties like roughing.

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10-09-2013, 02:13 PM
  #63
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And somehow we keep managing to make the playoffs year after year
The Rangers do not make the playoffs in any year without Lundqvist and are a bottom-five team in several of those years as well.

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10-09-2013, 02:18 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
No, you don't. Tortorella needed to adjust his course, not change it. AV is a different coach.

And it isn't an excuse, it's an observation. Also, it's the same observation as has been able to be made about countless other teams working with a vastly different coach from their last one. See Adam Oates last year, to name the most recent example I can think of. I'm not even saying it happens with every coach, but it does happen. From what I've seen, it looks like it's happening here.
I'd love to see the list of teams that have lost a game by 7 goals within the first week of having a new coach.

My point is, the outcome last night was so lopsided, it cannot be attributed solely to implementing a new system. They quit. Thats usually something reserved for the end of a coach's tenure.

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10-09-2013, 02:52 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I'd love to see the list of teams that have lost a game by 7 goals within the first week of having a new coach.
There are probably a few.

Scotty Bowman's Red Wings lost by 7 in his 3rd game as their coach. His Penguins lost by 8 in his 11th game as their coach. They were decent teams. He was a decent coach.

I maybe might get the horror of a "no passion new coach blowout" if it was midseason and Torts was fired yesterday and AV just showed up. But the team has been together through training camp. They are in the middle of working a lot of stuff out.

We'll see how the team responds over the next 2-3 weeks.

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10-09-2013, 02:56 PM
  #66
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Are we really talking about which players to keep/trade for a rebuild?

Really?

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10-09-2013, 03:14 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I honestly have been amazingly unimpressed/disappointed by Dorsett. When the Gaborik trade happened, everyone on the CBJ board were really upset that Dorsett was included. I haven't seen the guy they were talking about.
Twigy ain't much of a deterrent. Not too many guys are afraid of a scrappy fella that's smaller than them. With the way the game is being played today, there's a reason why the 16th and 17th overall picks from 2012 are wooing.

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10-09-2013, 03:25 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
since a rebuild is being discussed, dear lord please no more rebuilds under Sather. I just, when does it stop? When does Sather FINALLY step down? And just for fun, here are the players I'd keep in a rebuild if we're doing one.

-McDonagh
-Stepan
-Hagelin
-Staal
-Dorsett
-Lundqvist (if he's willing to go through that.)
-Zucca

I wonder if it ever gets to this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You're not really offering anything up if that's your keep list.
Staal, Callahan, Girardi, MDZ, Moore (On defense) are all something...oh yea and that lundqvist guy

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10-09-2013, 03:25 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I honestly have been amazingly unimpressed/disappointed by Dorsett. When the Gaborik trade happened, everyone on the CBJ board were really upset that Dorsett was included. I haven't seen the guy they were talking about.
Yea since he's been here I think he's been one of the worst players on the team. Last season especially, he took a lot of dumb penalties at bad times. He is supposed to be an enforcer, but I don't remember him sticking up for anyone on this team or starting any well-timed fights to gain momentum.

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10-09-2013, 03:33 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Doctor King Schultz View Post
Yea since he's been here I think he's been one of the worst players on the team. Last season especially, he took a lot of dumb penalties at bad times. He is supposed to be an enforcer, but I don't remember him sticking up for anyone on this team or starting any well-timed fights to gain momentum.
No, Dorsett is not an enforcer, never was and he wasn't brought here to be an enforcer. He is always known as a guy that has shown he has the fortitude to match up against any body, have ability to pot around 8 goals a season and actually has enough skill to not be a liability out there....

unfortunately he does still take some really stupid penalties, he hasn't learned to pick his spots real well yet.... Any ranger fan expecting him to play the strict enforcer role are going to be very disappointed.

His goal last night actually was a pretty one that not many guys in the fourth line role can pull off.

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10-09-2013, 03:41 PM
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The problem is the roster. Just not talented enough. Not enough skill, speed or size up front. No PP QB or size on D to move people out from the crease. So you have the same problems as last year. Not enough scoring, weak PP and deflected/screened goals with the opponent camped out in front.

What changes were made from last year?:

Pouliot
Dorsett for a full year
Moore
Fast

That's not going to cut it. We'll be fighting for the 8th spot again. To quote Dennis Miller when he used to be funny: "I hope I'm wrong, but I'm just not getting that vibe man."

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10-09-2013, 03:42 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by shinchanyo View Post
Staal, Callahan, Girardi, MDZ, Moore (On defense) are all something...oh yea and that lundqvist guy
Uh, Staal and Lundqvist are on his keep list. I would keep Callahan (but he's a UFA to be). Girardi is a UFA to be. MDZ is inconsistent. Moore is unproven.

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10-09-2013, 03:52 PM
  #73
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So are we committed to a full rebuild as a fan-base? I have to know what line to toe around here to remain hip.

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10-09-2013, 03:57 PM
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The recurring issue is the lack of offensively gifted players combined with a defense that offers little offensively. I didn't like the personality of Torts but I believe he played the smartest system for his personnel.

I believe that AV will come to the same conclusion.

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10-09-2013, 03:58 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
Are we really talking about which players to keep/trade for a rebuild?

Really?
Well, it's hypothetical for a start, but i guess it comes down to expectation. Unless you see this team, as constructed, as a serious cup contender (and I don't), then you need to have a different plan. As it stands I believe the Rangers are a team that is fighting for the 6-8th place for the finals (or however the hell they work now) and would be lucky to get out the 2nd round. Making the playoffs is great, especially after missing them for so long, but eventually you have to to either be in with a real shot or re-tool and start again.

I see nothing in the org that will put us 'over-the-top' and into a cup window (there are some good pieces there, but not game-breakers) so something else has to be done. It doesn't have to be a rebuild but it has to be something.

If we did go the hypothetical rebuild route, trading out Lundy, Girardi, MDZ, Cally, Boyle should net you a pretty good swag of picks/prospects (as well as a higher pick of our own), add that to Richards contract coming off the books and you've got the $$ to make a change. I'm not advocating a rebuild, but if it's an option, this season with all the contracts running out makes as much sense as any.

Also, Singin', loved your post, excellent summary of what is needed

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