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Old
10-10-2013, 07:12 AM
  #26
Agnostic
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
If this is in reference to last night's game, you are partly right. The defence played badly especially in the first period.

But I ask you did Calgary's defence play any better? An argument can be made that their defence played as badly if not worse yet Calgary won.

I don't blame Price for the loss but he sure as hell was one of the reasons the team lost. The first goal it was bad rebound management. The third goal he was just too slow to react.

Gorges, DD, Briere, Tinordi playing like a chicken with his head cut off, Boullion on in the last minutes, the coaching staff, those were other reasons.

Last night was a perfect example of what some of the Price detractors have been saying. Both defence sucked yet Calgary won the game because their goalie outplayed ours. That's twice in three games that the opposing goaltender outplays Price. If he is going to live up to his elite goalie status that has to stop.

He is being paid to outplay opposing goal tenders. That's what an elite goal does, Except for Markov no one on the defence is being paid to outplay the opposing defence.

You want a defence that consistently outplays the opposing defence well you better go find the cap space to make that happen.
I know you are right, you know you are right , unfortunately the bar has been lowered so much for Price that rational discussion is prevented . There exists no middle ground to critique his performance. Mistake free defense does not exist . Again last night Halak was first star and stopped a breakaway in the 3rd to seal victory from the Cup champs. Breakaways don't occur in St. Louis right? Last night 2 glaring mistakes hit the back of the net against Montreal , still that game was very winnable. Seems the montreal mistakes always turn the red light on.

Mike Johnson discussed Prices very real problem of sliding around last night . Mike must be a hater now and unworthy of TV employment. He's an ex-Leaf what does he know?

I will tell you what he knows , a $39M goalie should be better than a work in progress.

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10-10-2013, 07:15 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I know you are right, you know you are right , unfortunately the bar has been lowered so much for Price that rational discussion is prevented . There exists no middle ground to critique his performance. Mistake free defense does not exist . Again last night Halak was first star and stopped a breakaway in the 3rd to seal victory from the Cup champs. Breakaways don't occur in St. Louis right? Last night 2 glaring mistakes hit the back of the net against Montreal , still that game was very winnable. Seems the montreal mistakes always turn the red light on.

Mike Johnson discussed Prices very real problem of sliding around last night . Mike must be a hater now and unworthy of TV employment. He's an ex-Leaf what does he know?

I will tell you what he knows , a $39M goalie should be better than a work in progress.
when every goal against is "analyzed" in a way to make Price look bad, it is prevented a'right...

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10-10-2013, 07:17 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I know you are right, you know you are right , unfortunately the bar has been lowered so much for Price that rational discussion is prevented . There exists no middle ground to critique his performance. Mistake free defense does not exist . Again last night Halak was first star and stopped a breakaway in the 3rd to seal victory from the Cup champs. Breakaways don't occur in St. Louis right? Last night 2 glaring mistakes hit the back of the net against Montreal , still that game was very winnable. Seems the montreal mistakes always turn the red light on.

Mike Johnson discussed Prices very real problem of sliding around last night . Mike must be a hater now and unworthy of TV employment. He's an ex-Leaf what does he know?

I will tell you what he knows , a $39M goalie should be better than a work in progress.
Well he is a work in progress, believe it or not. His technique is an absolute mess right now for whatever reason. You are stuck with him so why argue about it.

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10-10-2013, 08:03 AM
  #29
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When the personnel on D are a little weak, it might help to play a somewhat more conservative style and get the forwards back/keep them back a bit more often. But that would bore us. TBH, I'm not expecting the team to win the Cup playing either style, so I guess I'll take a higher tempo riskier style of play, even if it leaves our D scrambling and looking porous at times, and puts extra pressure on Price to keep making those incredible saves to keep us in the games.

I think some people are also building up a little too much hope in Emelin. Having him back *would* help. But not as much as people seem to be saying, IMHO. He has never been very good in his zone, and while he's entertaining when he's hitting, he's not going to be some sort of saviour to this D either. I'm frankly expecting Murray to provide more of the stability we need than Emelin can. But they will both help. Until then, however, we just have to keep hanging in there, getting those big saves from Price and maybe hoping our forwards can convert a little better.

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10-10-2013, 08:08 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by bdawg1989 View Post
What is even more scary is we have no potential top4 D in our prospect pool...
Yeah except Tinordi and Beaulieu. Oh and half a dozen pretty good defense prospect.

Fire Bergevin!

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10-10-2013, 08:18 AM
  #31
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I was flamed on this board when I said during training camp that Habs' defense is not really good. A lot of fans overestimate Habs' defensemen.

To be able to compete with the conference's top 1/3 teams, Habs would need Emelin back + a real #2 d-man who can play in any situation + an experienced Tinordi + another physical d-man.

That's where I think Bergevin will have to move in the upcoming years as I don't think the actual D prospect will be ready before another 3-4 years (it takes longer to polish a d-man like, say, Tinordi). So if Bergevin wants to make his defense and offense ready to win a cup at the same time, he'll soon have to trade some assets to add at leat one "ready" d-man to the group.

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10-10-2013, 08:31 AM
  #32
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The whole team is a work in progress. Let's be honest.

The D needs work, but we have some young guys that can grow into important roles.

Tinordi
Subban
Emelin
Beaulieu

are all good young D with size.


Then you have

Bennett
Nygren
Dietz
Pateryn
Ellis

These guys will need more time, but if we are patient one of two of these guys may become contributors...one could even surprise.

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10-10-2013, 08:34 AM
  #33
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If we continue playing like this, maybe Ekblad would look sexy in a habs uniform.

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10-10-2013, 08:34 AM
  #34
Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
I was flamed on this board when I said during training camp that Habs' defense is not really good. A lot of fans overestimate Habs' defensemen.

To be able to compete with the conference's top 1/3 teams, Habs would need Emelin back + a real #2 d-man who can play in any situation + an experienced Tinordi + another physical d-man.

That's where I think Bergevin will have to move in the upcoming years as I don't think the actual D prospect will be ready before another 3-4 years (it takes longer to polish a d-man like, say, Tinordi). So if Bergevin wants to make his defense and offense ready to win a cup at the same time, he'll soon have to trade some assets to add at leat one "ready" d-man to the group.
People shouldn't overestimate how quickly the likes of Beaulieu, Pateryn, or Dietz can ever contribute to the solution. Sitting back waiting for those guys isn't going to be the solution. If one or two prospects can be phased in over the next 3-5 years, great, but the heavy lifting we need is still going to have to come from somewhere else. (And, again, the loss of McDonagh has been such a crippling blow, alas).

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10-10-2013, 08:46 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I know you are right, you know you are right , unfortunately the bar has been lowered so much for Price that rational discussion is prevented . There exists no middle ground to critique his performance. Mistake free defense does not exist . Again last night Halak was first star and stopped a breakaway in the 3rd to seal victory from the Cup champs. Breakaways don't occur in St. Louis right? Last night 2 glaring mistakes hit the back of the net against Montreal , still that game was very winnable. Seems the montreal mistakes always turn the red light on.

Mike Johnson discussed Prices very real problem of sliding around last night . Mike must be a hater now and unworthy of TV employment. He's an ex-Leaf what does he know?

I will tell you what he knows , a $39M goalie should be better than a work in progress.
Say what you want about Price, you don't win very many hockey games by only scoring 2 goals.

Also just because others on this forum over rate/hype Price doesn't mean he can't be allowed to let one get by him every now and then, like every other goalie in the league does.

What's your point exactly, because Halak made some good saves and won the game, Price isn't allowed to lose one? Next time Price has a shutout and Halak puts up a stinker where are you going to be?

I understand you despise the guy, but it's a team sport. Go look at St. Louis top 4 dmen and look at ours. Just because Halak bails his team out when they make mistakes doesn't suddenly mean Price is to blame regardless of the mistakes his teammates make.

Did he steal the game? No. It isn't his job to steal the game every single night though. He played well enough for us to win and guess what, we scored two goals while playing poorly at both ends. But of course, this is Price's fault and all star Halak is the second coming.

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10-10-2013, 08:57 AM
  #36
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Ha - I called this during pre-season. I was told to be quiet because, well, it was only pre-season. I was told we have a playoff bound team. I mean: "Did you see what they did last year?".

I need to correct my initial observations of this team, we're looking worse than I thought. Mark my words, Toronto will be in, we'll be out and playing gold.

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10-10-2013, 08:58 AM
  #37
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So...huh...how good would McDonaugh look on our top4 right now? Can we say we are still feeling the effects of the screw job Gainey pulled on this team after all these years. Habs did the Rangers a favor by taking that huge ridiculous contract off their hands. There was no need to throw in McDo on top of that!


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10-10-2013, 09:00 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Alot of teams have marginal prospects like Dietz Nygren Thrower Pateryn.. in their prospects pool, no one of these guys showed anything concrete at the AHL level or at the main camp, outside Beaulieu, to elevate their status to serious top 4 potential..
I disagree, I think Dietz showed some very good potential in training camp. I think he could be a #3-4 defenceman. He's also got some underrated offensive skills.

Also, I know you didn't mention Beaulieu, so this is not directed at you, but I love his skill set and think he can be a #2 or #3 and powerplay specialist.

The others are hit and miss...some won't pan out, but i'm sure a few more will as I think our prospect depth is there.

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10-10-2013, 09:02 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
So...huh...how good would McDonaugh look on our top4 right now? Can we say we are still feeling the effects of the screw job Gainey pulled on this team after all these years.
Yup, we're the aftershocks are going to be felt for some time. Unfortunately, last year, a new coach, combined with an odd season gave fans some hope that the tide was turning. Well, here we are... a bunch of smurfs who can't score, and brutes who are all injured. Yippppeeee.....

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10-10-2013, 09:02 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Devourers View Post
Say what you want about Price, you don't win very many hockey games by only scoring 2 goals.

Also just because others on this forum over rate/hype Price doesn't mean he can't be allowed to let one get by him every now and then, like every other goalie in the league does.

What's your point exactly, because Halak made some good saves and won the game, Price isn't allowed to lose one? Next time Price has a shutout and Halak puts up a stinker where are you going to be?

I understand you despise the guy, but it's a team sport. Go look at St. Louis top 4 dmen and look at ours. Just because Halak bails his team out when they make mistakes doesn't suddenly mean Price is to blame regardless of the mistakes his teammates make.

Did he steal the game? No. It isn't his job to steal the game every single night though. He played well enough for us to win and guess what, we scored two goals while playing poorly at both ends. But of course, this is Price's fault and all star Halak is the second coming.
The 2 goal problem was covered on another thread . A one line team is a losing team nobody would dispute that.

The issue on this thread is the convenient falsehood that Montreals defense is so much worse than every other team. Just as every night produces goaltending across a broad spectrum there are some large defensive gaffs ans breakdowns every night. Even in st.Louis. All this is conveniently packaged to show that Price is a victim. Which he can be on Occasion but generally he's not , he's just failing to meet the reasonable standards expected of him.

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10-10-2013, 09:05 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
People shouldn't overestimate how quickly the likes of Beaulieu, Pateryn, or Dietz can ever contribute to the solution. Sitting back waiting for those guys isn't going to be the solution. If one or two prospects can be phased in over the next 3-5 years, great, but the heavy lifting we need is still going to have to come from somewhere else. (And, again, the loss of McDonagh has been such a crippling blow, alas).
I totally agree with you here.

So what would you do? Would you speed things up and play the young d-men in the hope of accelerating the phasing, or would you ease their NHL debut and try to trade/sign real NHL d-men?

I would personnaly do both. I would play Tinordi and Beaulieu right away, living with their mistakes, then I would maybe wait half a season to start playing whoever is the closest in Hamilton. Then I would consider what's coming in the next Free Agent season and evaluate things from there. If nothing's available in the FA season, then I would strongly consider trading a good prospect and a high pick for a real efficient #2 d-man.

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10-10-2013, 09:06 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
The 2 goal problem was covered on another thread . A one line team is a losing team nobody would dispute that.

The issue on this thread is the convenient falsehood that Montreals defense is so much worse than every other team. Just as every night produces goaltending across a broad spectrum there are some large defensive gaffs ans breakdowns every night. Even in st.Louis. All this is conveniently packaged to show that Price is a victim. Which he can be on Occasion but generally he's not , he's just failing to meet the reasonable standards expected of him.
So every time we lose a game we're going to blame Price? The third goal was the worst given up, and it was a deflection. Our breakdowns on defence are quite bad. The lames only had 5 shots in the first period, but they had a few other glorious chances that missed the net. The defence is completely lost sometimes. How many times did we see Flames players by themselves beside the net and just miss cross crease passes?

I'm not gonna say Price was amazing, but he played well enough to win a normal game IMO. I know you'd love him to steal more games, and I would as well, but as long as he gives his team a chance to win every night, it's good enough for me.

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10-10-2013, 09:08 AM
  #43
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I think this is our biggest problem. We have a PK & Markov but Diaz can't do anything except rush the puck, Bouillon isn't bad but he's lost a step, Gorges is best suited as a #4-5 & Tinordi is still very young.

We need another anchor on D to become competitve IMO but it'll be hard to acquire by trade.

edit: Hopefully Emelin comes back soon and continues to be a rock on defence. Maybe he'll even find a spot on the PP ahead of Bouillon/Gorges.

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10-10-2013, 09:11 AM
  #44
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Defence is obviously our weakest link right now (other than Desharnais), but i don't think big changes are needed. With Murray and Emelin to replace Bouillon and Diaz the Habs will have a decent D:

Georges - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Murray - Tinordi

with Diaz, Drewiskie and Bouillon as replacement which is what they should be, not regular (Diaz is horrible btw). Please don't bring me the "2nd power play pair" argument to insert Diaz in the lineup, he's useless.

What concern me right now is the fact that with injuries to our d-corp, Therrien is not giving a chance to Beaulieu or Pateryn (or Nygren) to get some ice time with the pro, instead going with useless veteran like Bouillon and Diaz as regular. When injured players return it should be better. Not perfect, but better. Use this time to play some kids MT. (and i consider Tinordi a regular now)

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10-10-2013, 09:13 AM
  #45
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We can point the loss on price or the defense but I think right now the biggest problem is the lack of cohesion.


First period was horrible, The D and the forward was not able to connect any pass. The entire team was a turnover machine. For sure when you loose the puck in the neutral more than half of the time your defense and your goaltender will look weak because it's harder to play the system you put in place. Your playing more of a reaction game.

In the third period it was already alot better, we'll see in the next few games if there's some progress. I guess it's ''Normal'' it can happen to some clubs in the beginning of the season.

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10-10-2013, 09:18 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by FuriousBob View Post
We can point the loss on price or the defense but I think right now the biggest problem is the lack of cohesion.


First period was horrible, The D and the forward was not able to connect any pass. The entire team was a turnover machine. For sure when you loose the puck in the neutral more than half of the time your defense and your goaltender will look weak because it's harder to play the system you put in place. Your playing more of a reaction game.

In the third period it was already alot better, we'll see in the next few games if there's some progress. I guess it's ''Normal'' it can happen to some clubs in the beginning of the season.
The team has had 4 day breaks before each of its 3 games, I don't think they can possibly be in a mid season rhythm that would provide consistency.

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10-10-2013, 09:25 AM
  #47
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If this is in reference to last night's game, you are partly right. The defence played badly especially in the first period.

But I ask you did Calgary's defence play any better? An argument can be made that their defence played as badly if not worse yet Calgary won.

I don't blame Price for the loss but he sure as hell was one of the reasons the team lost. The first goal it was bad rebound management. The third goal he was just too slow to react.
I didn't see the game but did see those goals. The first goal is a two on one. Price makes the save that's what the guy is supposed to do. His D is responsible for the rebound. On a play like that all you can ask for is for you goalie to stop the puck.

THAT's the difference between our team and the Bruins. When Crawford or Rask make that save the play is over because their team covers up and all the posters sit here and say... LOOK their goalie can make a key save! Why can't ours?

Our goalie makes key saves all the time but our guys suck at clearing the crease and down low we are overmatched.

And the third goal... how is Price supposed to even see it? Again, there's a guy having a coffee in front of him. Nobody bothering him and he's right in our goalie's face.

I don't understand how you can't see this...
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Gorges, DD, Briere, Tinordi playing like a chicken with his head cut off, Boullion on in the last minutes, the coaching staff, those were other reasons.

Last night was a perfect example of what some of the Price detractors have been saying. Both defence sucked yet Calgary won the game because their goalie outplayed ours. That's twice in three games that the opposing goaltender outplays Price. If he is going to live up to his elite goalie status that has to stop.
I can't comment on the game as I didn't see most of it but your general statement here is also misplaced.

Their goalie outplayed our offense dude. Price isn't out there trying to score. That's on the skaters. If we can't score, that's on the forwards and D. You can't blame Price for us only managing to put two past a backup of a backup....
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He is being paid to outplay opposing goal tenders. That's what an elite goal does, Except for Markov no one on the defence is being paid to outplay the opposing defence.

You want a defence that consistently outplays the opposing defence well you better go find the cap space to make that happen.
I'd be happy with a defense that simply does its job. Normally we've had this. Scoring goals was always the problem... now we've got scorers but a D that's swiss cheese.

Good luck to ANY goalie with this group.
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
When the personnel on D are a little weak, it might help to play a somewhat more conservative style and get the forwards back/keep them back a bit more often. But that would bore us. TBH, I'm not expecting the team to win the Cup playing either style, so I guess I'll take a higher tempo riskier style of play, even if it leaves our D scrambling and looking porous at times, and puts extra pressure on Price to keep making those incredible saves to keep us in the games.
I agree, I think we should play a more open style. It suits our team game which is speed. No problem with this but we need some guys who are more steady on the backend that's all.
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I think some people are also building up a little too much hope in Emelin. Having him back *would* help. But not as much as people seem to be saying, IMHO. He has never been very good in his zone, and while he's entertaining when he's hitting, he's not going to be some sort of saviour to this D either. I'm frankly expecting Murray to provide more of the stability we need than Emelin can. But they will both help. Until then, however, we just have to keep hanging in there, getting those big saves from Price and maybe hoping our forwards can convert a little better.
Emelin is not going to save this D. And we don't even know how healthy he's going to be.

But we got Briere instead of a stay at home so it's all good.

Actually, I'm hoping that Murray can step in and provide some stability. Even if he just replaces Bouillion we'd be much further ahead.
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I was flamed on this board when I said during training camp that Habs' defense is not really good. A lot of fans overestimate Habs' defensemen.
You were posting in the wrong threads. Most folks could see this wasn't a good group.
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
To be able to compete with the conference's top 1/3 teams, Habs would need Emelin back + a real #2 d-man who can play in any situation + an experienced Tinordi + another physical d-man.

That's where I think Bergevin will have to move in the upcoming years as I don't think the actual D prospect will be ready before another 3-4 years (it takes longer to polish a d-man like, say, Tinordi). So if Bergevin wants to make his defense and offense ready to win a cup at the same time, he'll soon have to trade some assets to add at leat one "ready" d-man to the group.
Too bad we didn't do this in the offseason when we had loads of cap space to take advantage of.
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
People shouldn't overestimate how quickly the likes of Beaulieu, Pateryn, or Dietz can ever contribute to the solution. Sitting back waiting for those guys isn't going to be the solution. If one or two prospects can be phased in over the next 3-5 years, great, but the heavy lifting we need is still going to have to come from somewhere else.
How could MB have not seen this? It was so obvious.
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(And, again, the loss of McDonagh has been such a crippling blow, alas).
Don't go there please.

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10-10-2013, 09:38 AM
  #48
Blind Gardien
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I totally agree with you here.

So what would you do? Would you speed things up and play the young d-men in the hope of accelerating the phasing, or would you ease their NHL debut and try to trade/sign real NHL d-men?

I would personnaly do both. I would play Tinordi and Beaulieu right away, living with their mistakes, then I would maybe wait half a season to start playing whoever is the closest in Hamilton. Then I would consider what's coming in the next Free Agent season and evaluate things from there. If nothing's available in the FA season, then I would strongly consider trading a good prospect and a high pick for a real efficient #2 d-man.
I don't know exactly what the solution would be. I have doubts that Beaulieu could handle the NHL yet, so I'm leery about even trying to live with his mistakes... I would rather take the time to develop a defenseman carefully. Not every player can be "ruined" by being rushed to the NHL, but some players can have their development hindered, and I just would generally not take the chance. Live with our current D as-is. Even consider sending Tinordi back at times if everybody else is healthy.

I don't like the odds of trading for an established "real efficient #2 d-man"... it would be nice to identify somebody who isn't there yet but who emerges as that. Or to take advantage of somebody's cap situation or internal budget (e.g. Cowen RFA try), *something* that doesn't involving trading a full-up painful price for a guy who obviously fits the need. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see who becomes available, when. At least as long as the need is there and a priority is set to address it, then you can evaluate the opportunities as they emerge.

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10-10-2013, 09:51 AM
  #49
LePoche69
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't know exactly what the solution would be. I have doubts that Beaulieu could handle the NHL yet, so I'm leery about even trying to live with his mistakes... I would rather take the time to develop a defenseman carefully. Not every player can be "ruined" by being rushed to the NHL, but some players can have their development hindered, and I just would generally not take the chance. Live with our current D as-is. Even consider sending Tinordi back at times if everybody else is healthy.

I don't like the odds of trading for an established "real efficient #2 d-man"... it would be nice to identify somebody who isn't there yet but who emerges as that. Or to take advantage of somebody's cap situation or internal budget (e.g. Cowen RFA try), *something* that doesn't involving trading a full-up painful price for a guy who obviously fits the need. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see who becomes available, when. At least as long as the need is there and a priority is set to address it, then you can evaluate the opportunities as they emerge.
Words of wisdom. Makes sense.

But unfortunatly, I don't think, these days, that a GM can always be that patient. At one point, even if it's risky, every good GM does a bold move that make a difference. Ciarreli made some, Lombardi made some. Quinn made some when he traded to have both Sedins. He did it again with Kessel that turned out to be a fair trade, and did good also with Phaneuf. Bergevin has no choice, I believe. Only "drafting and waiting" never works. He'll have to make the difference-maker move sooner rather than later. And I bet it will hurt as I'm pretty sure a good young prospect/player will have to be trade.

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10-10-2013, 09:55 AM
  #50
Monctonscout
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People shouldn't overestimate how quickly the likes of Beaulieu, Pateryn, or Dietz can ever contribute to the solution. Sitting back waiting for those guys isn't going to be the solution. If one or two prospects can be phased in over the next 3-5 years, great, but the heavy lifting we need is still going to have to come from somewhere else. (And, again, the loss of McDonagh has been such a crippling blow, alas).
It's not "sitting back" it's putting in the time to develop them.

You complain about McDonagh but then you're almost proposing a similar knee jerk reaction...tradeing a couple young guys to plug a hole(see Gomez trade).

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