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A very porous blueline!

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Old
10-10-2013, 10:58 AM
  #51
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
It's not "sitting back" it's putting in the time to develop them.

You complain about McDonagh but then you're almost proposing a similar knee jerk reaction...tradeing a couple young guys to plug a hole(see Gomez trade).
? I'm proposing to sit back, actually. And yes, it is to develop young guys properly. And not make any knee jerk trades. Are you responding to the right poster here?

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10-10-2013, 10:58 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
I totally agree with you here.

So what would you do? Would you speed things up and play the young d-men in the hope of accelerating the phasing, or would you ease their NHL debut and try to trade/sign real NHL d-men?

I would personnaly do both. I would play Tinordi and Beaulieu right away, living with their mistakes, then I would maybe wait half a season to start playing whoever is the closest in Hamilton. Then I would consider what's coming in the next Free Agent season and evaluate things from there. If nothing's available in the FA season, then I would strongly consider trading a good prospect and a high pick for a real efficient #2 d-man.
The problem with "living with the mistakes" is that after awhile young players start playing to survive instead of trying to thrive. That's why it's good to insulate them and limit their minutes/matchups.

#2 d-men cost a lot to acquire as usually teams that have them are not looking to trade them unless they will be UFA's or have asked for a trade. Not always a realistic option unless you're prepared to make a huge offer.

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10-10-2013, 11:02 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
It's not "sitting back" it's putting in the time to develop them.

You complain about McDonagh but then you're almost proposing a similar knee jerk reaction...tradeing a couple young guys to plug a hole(see Gomez trade).
Personnaly, I don't think that finding a true #2 d-man is plugging a hole. I don't see any of the kids listed here that may become as complete as McDonaugh. And this discussion doesn't necessarily mean that I want to trade a Beaulieu. But it could be necessary to trade assets or dept to find this elusive #2 d-man.

The point is that waiting for a youngster to developp into a real #2 d-man may be too long to win the cup with the actual core of the team (given the fact that we're in a cap era)

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10-10-2013, 11:04 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Words of wisdom. Makes sense.

But unfortunatly, I don't think, these days, that a GM can always be that patient. At one point, even if it's risky, every good GM does a bold move that make a difference. Ciarreli made some, Lombardi made some. Quinn made some when he traded to have both Sedins. He did it again with Kessel that turned out to be a fair trade, and did good also with Phaneuf. Bergevin has no choice, I believe. Only "drafting and waiting" never works. He'll have to make the difference-maker move sooner rather than later. And I bet it will hurt as I'm pretty sure a good young prospect/player will have to be trade.
I think Bergevin has a pretty good amount of slack to be patient with right now. The organization is assembling a strong group of prospects atm, and a more diverse group, and it's only as those assets start to evolve and emerge that he'll have the ammunition to make bold moves on the trade front. He's not there yet. He should save his bold moves for free agents for now.

I mean, always assuming there isn't some situation that comes out of the blue like a player elsewhere demanding a trade, or a cap situation, or something that makes a good player available at a more attractive price than might otherwise be the case. But you can't really count on that happening. So the generalization would still be wait and build with the draft and free agents. Bergevin has time for that.

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10-10-2013, 11:10 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I think Bergevin has a pretty good amount of slack to be patient with right now. The organization is assembling a strong group of prospects atm, and a more diverse group, and it's only as those assets start to evolve and emerge that he'll have the ammunition to make bold moves on the trade front. He's not there yet. He should save his bold moves for free agents for now.

I mean, always assuming there isn't some situation that comes out of the blue like a player elsewhere demanding a trade, or a cap situation, or something that makes a good player available at a more attractive price than might otherwise be the case. But you can't really count on that happening. So the generalization would still be wait and build with the draft and free agents. Bergevin has time for that.
Really, I gree with everything you said here...

But I don't think that Bergevin has so much time. Not with a cap. Subban and Eller will have HUGE raises pretty soon. Then it will be Max Pac and Price to start negociating new contracts again, then He'll have to replace a lot of vets going out and not all of them will be replaced by kids, therefore it'll cost more. My bet is Bergevin has no more than 12-18 months to find that elusive #2 d-man and sign him for multiple years, even if it's overpayment.

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10-10-2013, 12:32 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't know exactly what the solution would be. I have doubts that Beaulieu could handle the NHL yet, so I'm leery about even trying to live with his mistakes... I would rather take the time to develop a defenseman carefully. Not every player can be "ruined" by being rushed to the NHL, but some players can have their development hindered, and I just would generally not take the chance. Live with our current D as-is. Even consider sending Tinordi back at times if everybody else is healthy.

I don't like the odds of trading for an established "real efficient #2 d-man"... it would be nice to identify somebody who isn't there yet but who emerges as that. Or to take advantage of somebody's cap situation or internal budget (e.g. Cowen RFA try), *something* that doesn't involving trading a full-up painful price for a guy who obviously fits the need. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see who becomes available, when. At least as long as the need is there and a priority is set to address it, then you can evaluate the opportunities as they emerge.
This is exactly why Briere was such a mistake. If we had an additional 4m in cap space we would be in a much better position to trade for what we need.

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10-10-2013, 12:59 PM
  #57
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The blueline, a 4th line center/PKer was the issue going into the season.. and another scoring winger with size.

We will see what Murray does for us and if Bournival gets the time to address the 2nd need. Briere was a mess.

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10-10-2013, 02:37 PM
  #58
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With Maatta's impressive performance the Pens may soon consider moving Després. Would the Habs go after the kid? Big, local, versatile.

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10-10-2013, 03:16 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't know exactly what the solution would be. I have doubts that Beaulieu could handle the NHL yet, so I'm leery about even trying to live with his mistakes... I would rather take the time to develop a defenseman carefully. Not every player can be "ruined" by being rushed to the NHL, but some players can have their development hindered, and I just would generally not take the chance. Live with our current D as-is. Even consider sending Tinordi back at times if everybody else is healthy.

I don't like the odds of trading for an established "real efficient #2 d-man"... it would be nice to identify somebody who isn't there yet but who emerges as that. Or to take advantage of somebody's cap situation or internal budget (e.g. Cowen RFA try), *something* that doesn't involving trading a full-up painful price for a guy who obviously fits the need. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see who becomes available, when. At least as long as the need is there and a priority is set to address it, then you can evaluate the opportunities as they emerge.
At this point... how could we?

Really, we used the cap space on Briere and there's not much we can do unless a team is in need of a scorer and willing to take a smaller player. We're really kind of stuck with what we've got now.
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
Words of wisdom. Makes sense.

But unfortunatly, I don't think, these days, that a GM can always be that patient. At one point, even if it's risky, every good GM does a bold move that make a difference. Ciarreli made some, Lombardi made some. Quinn made some when he traded to have both Sedins. He did it again with Kessel that turned out to be a fair trade, and did good also with Phaneuf. Bergevin has no choice, I believe. Only "drafting and waiting" never works. He'll have to make the difference-maker move sooner rather than later. And I bet it will hurt as I'm pretty sure a good young prospect/player will have to be trade.
Here's the other problem... Subban is in his prime (and we've wasted years where we've had him cheap) Price is in his prime, Max is in his prime... we're starting to waste years of good performances by these players. Not saying the window is anywhere close to shutting but why waste these years?

I truly believe that with a shutdown guy and a big Power forward we'd have been in great shape this year. But we missed that opportunity and saddled ourselves with a small player. To me it's two years of wasted opportunity to at least try to win.
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I think Bergevin has a pretty good amount of slack to be patient with right now. The organization is assembling a strong group of prospects atm, and a more diverse group, and it's only as those assets start to evolve and emerge that he'll have the ammunition to make bold moves on the trade front. He's not there yet. He should save his bold moves for free agents for now.

I mean, always assuming there isn't some situation that comes out of the blue like a player elsewhere demanding a trade, or a cap situation, or something that makes a good player available at a more attractive price than might otherwise be the case. But you can't really count on that happening. So the generalization would still be wait and build with the draft and free agents. Bergevin has time for that.
Not sure what else we really can do.

Problem is that we aren't going to be able to shelter guys like Tinordi and Beaulieu because we don't have the steady blueliners to log the harder minutes here. We've got Subban (great all around) and then Diaz and Markov. Blueline is very one dimensional and with Tinordi we're basically going to lean on this guy more than we should. It also exposes Price and drives down his numbers as well.

It's not a good situation right now but I don't see what we can do about it. The logical choice would be to deal Markov but nobody is going to give us real value for him. So we're kind of stuck where we are now.

And that's not even addressing the size issue up front.
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This is exactly why Briere was such a mistake. If we had an additional 4m in cap space we would be in a much better position to trade for what we need.
Yup.
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
The blueline, a 4th line center/PKer was the issue going into the season.. and another scoring winger with size.

We will see what Murray does for us and if Bournival gets the time to address the 2nd need. Briere was a mess.
As usual, we are on the same page.

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10-10-2013, 03:17 PM
  #60
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With Maatta's impressive performance the Pens may soon consider moving Després. Would the Habs go after the kid? Big, local, versatile.
...the cost would be probably more than the Habs could manage right now...

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10-10-2013, 03:22 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Disagree completely.

Dietz, Thrower, Beaulieu and possibly Nygren could all be top four blueliners in the NHL.
ouch! Complete disagreement, they're all very overrated. Beaulieu has some potential though.


BTW, we've said for a while that our defense sucks. MB thought that his money was better spent on DD and Brière. **** him.

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10-10-2013, 03:30 PM
  #62
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I didn't see the game but did see those goals. The first goal is a two on one. Price makes the save that's what the guy is supposed to do. His D is responsible for the rebound. On a play like that all you can ask for is for you goalie to stop the puck.
Maybe you should have watched the game and seen how Macdonald outplayed Price. His defence gave up as many if not more scoring chances. And this is a scrub goaltender.

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10-10-2013, 03:32 PM
  #63
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Maybe you should have watched the game and seen how Macdonald outplayed Price. His defence gave up as many if not more scoring chances. And this is a scrub goaltender.
Then blame the scorers. THEY are the ones who didn't beat a scrub goaltender.

If he's a scrub then we should score more than two goals.

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10-10-2013, 04:22 PM
  #64
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Maybe you should have watched the game and seen how Macdonald outplayed Price. His defence gave up as many if not more scoring chances. And this is a scrub goaltender.
The only goalie to get beat clean by a shot was MacDonald on the Subban blast. Apart from that one, you have 3 empty-net tap-ins and one massive redirect. I wouldn't blame either goalie on any of the goals scored. Both goalies made some clutch saves on chances that could have been blameless goals too. The Habs got more total shots, though. More straight onto MacDonald's pads and into his chest, basically. And missed the net more. I don't think you can claim either goalie "outplayed" the other just on the results of this particular game.

Price still looks more "skilled" than MacDonald, though, if you judge things on "artistic merit" in terms of his movements, his puckhandling ability, his overall quickness, footwork, etc. Those are about the only things you can dig into in judging the goalies from more of a scouting/technical basis, and trying to decide who is more the "scrub" and who the "thoroughbred". In that sense, the distinction is obvious.

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10-10-2013, 04:26 PM
  #65
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Josh Gorges is absolutely a top-4 defenceman. He's a great +20min defenceman who can kill penalties, block shots, and can be relied upon to play big minutes without much hassle. He's low maintenance and can play just about anywhere. However, he's not a #2 defenceman and not currently a good compliment to PK Subban. He should be playing on the second pairing, no question.

XXXX-Subban
Gorges-Emelin
Tinordi-Nygren/Diaz/Beaulieu
(Pateryn/Drewiskie)

*XXXX does not stand for Markov.
You're being kind to Gorges. Are you related to him?

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10-10-2013, 04:27 PM
  #66
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ouch! Complete disagreement, they're all very overrated. Beaulieu has some potential though.


BTW, we've said for a while that our defense sucks. MB thought that his money was better spent on DD and Brière. **** him.
What? Who the hell could Bergevin have signed. Scuderi only wanted to go to Pittsburgh or LA. The UFA pool was garbage for defense this year. Anyone we would be acquiring would be getting demoted as soon as Emelin returned too. Murray getting injured in training camp isn't Bergevin's fault.

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10-10-2013, 05:13 PM
  #67
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I think its pretty evident what type of player we will be drafting in THIS years draft, and it wont be a PMD either.

especially after hearing about how they possibly wanted morin last june too

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10-10-2013, 05:38 PM
  #68
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We have one of the best blueline groups in the league... don't you know this?
Yes. I'm sure I read this in this board. Still trying to figure out which team they were talking about....

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10-11-2013, 09:59 AM
  #69
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Way too much short-term negativity in this thread. We're the "Build-Through-The-Draft" team, so let them build.

This season will be about taking one step back to move two steps forward. Tinordi and Beaulieu will make plenty of rookie mistakes, Emelin will take time to shake the rust off when he returns, as will Murray, and expect the occasional glimpses of Pateryn or Dietz to be bumpy. That translates to frustrating missed coverages and stupid goals and more threads like this.

But on balance I think our D is becoming... well... if not great, then at least much more solid. Most of our D is on an upward trend as they gain experience and regain health. Emelin -- assuming he's 100% -- is very good overall, and I say that as someone who was a fan throughout last season and didn't just jump on his bandwagon post-injury. His skating and positioning really improved, and he was fast on his feet and with his stick. Good reflexes and instincts. I'm not sure about Diaz -- he's looked weak -- but there's reason to think he can regain the stronger, more confident style he had last season. Then there are the Learning-Curve Kids -- Tinordi and Beaulieu, plus the prospect pool players. JT and NB have strong NHL potential and will be much stronger and smarter with another season of playing within the system. Same with the other prospects, who are being developed with much more attention than in previous administrations. It's fair to say that Pateryn, Nygren, Dietz may not be anything more than bottom-pairing guys, but don't underestimate a development philosophy that schools these players and lets them grow together!

I'd love to trade or buy an established top-four D, but history tells us the chances of getting that guy are slim. Chances are we already have our top-six defensemen on the team and in the queue. We just need to hope our young prospects have as much potential as some people think. Beaulieu and Tinordi are 1st-rounders who are looking good, the rest are crapshoots, but expect at least one prospect to become a legit player. Overall, the Habs are on their way to becoming a fast, offensive team from the back end out.

The only concern continues to be taking forwards out of the play in our zone and around our own net. Too many sticks flailing for the puck, too few bodies interposing themselves between forward and puck, too many lost battles. This is exactly the hole that Murray fills, but we need our more talented, quicker defensemen to pick up that slack. Can Beaulieu add more defensive responsibility to his skill-set? I think so. He looked focused last night.

But be optimistic. All of our key defensemen are young, the oldest being Gorges at 29, and half of next year's core is learning and improving. Unfortunately, the cost of next year's benefit is more losses this year.

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10-11-2013, 10:15 AM
  #70
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Way too much short-term negativity in this thread. We're the "Build-Through-The-Draft" team, so let them build.

This season will be about taking one step back to move two steps forward. Tinordi and Beaulieu will make plenty of rookie mistakes, Emelin will take time to shake the rust off when he returns, as will Murray, and expect the occasional glimpses of Pateryn or Dietz to be bumpy. That translates to frustrating missed coverages and stupid goals and more threads like this.

But on balance I think our D is becoming... well... if not great, then at least much more solid. Most of our D is on an upward trend as they gain experience and regain health. Emelin -- assuming he's 100% -- is very good overall, and I say that as someone who was a fan throughout last season and didn't just jump on his bandwagon post-injury. His skating and positioning really improved, and he was fast on his feet and with his stick. Good reflexes and instincts. I'm not sure about Diaz -- he's looked weak -- but there's reason to think he can regain the stronger, more confident style he had last season. Then there are the Learning-Curve Kids -- Tinordi and Beaulieu, plus the prospect pool players. JT and NB have strong NHL potential and will be much stronger and smarter with another season of playing within the system. Same with the other prospects, who are being developed with much more attention than in previous administrations. It's fair to say that Pateryn, Nygren, Dietz may not be anything more than bottom-pairing guys, but don't underestimate a development philosophy that schools these players and lets them grow together!

I'd love to trade or buy an established top-four D, but history tells us the chances of getting that guy are slim. Chances are we already have our top-six defensemen on the team and in the queue. We just need to hope our young prospects have as much potential as some people think. Beaulieu and Tinordi are 1st-rounders who are looking good, the rest are crapshoots, but expect at least one prospect to become a legit player. Overall, the Habs are on their way to becoming a fast, offensive team from the back end out.

The only concern continues to be taking forwards out of the play in our zone and around our own net. Too many sticks flailing for the puck, too few bodies interposing themselves between forward and puck, too many lost battles. This is exactly the hole that Murray fills, but we need our more talented, quicker defensemen to pick up that slack. Can Beaulieu add more defensive responsibility to his skill-set? I think so. He looked focused last night.

But be optimistic. All of our key defensemen are young, the oldest being Gorges at 29, and half of next year's core is learning and improving. Unfortunately, the cost of next year's benefit is more losses this year.
"Drafting-and-waiting" only never works. A GM have to make the complementary moves to phase the devlopment logically.

Now you may very well be right and I may very well be wrong, but my view is that d-men take way longer to developp than forwards. So giving the age of our forwards' core, I think it could be too late when the young d-men will be ready (too late in a cap reality). Now I'm not saying to trade or to give up on most young d-man, I'm just saying that Bergevin will have to trade for a real #2 d-man, not very old.

Markov and Gorges will be dangerously past their prime when the forwards will be ready to win, and no young d-man will be ready to take the role of a real #2.

That's why I think that bergevin will have to make a bold move as a #2 d-man cost a lot. And it could be the same for a true power forward.

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10-11-2013, 10:17 AM
  #71
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Price still looks more "skilled" than MacDonald, though, if you judge things on "artistic merit" in terms of his movements, his puckhandling ability, his overall quickness, footwork, etc.
C'mon, Blind Gardien, really? We're basing judgements on "looks" & "artistic merits"?

How good did Hasek, Tim Thomas or even Brodeur look when they were in top form?

This is not Olympic diving or figure skating. Looks & artistic merits don't win games and quite honestly I thought & still think Price has all the skills to be an elite goalie but it looks to me like he's missing an element that elite goalies with less talent have. I want to call it drive, desire but those words don't really explain it. Maybe it's an ego thing. They're not happy it'll they're the best. I don't see that in Price. It might make him a better human being but it sure doesn't help with his goaltending.

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10-11-2013, 10:25 AM
  #72
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Personnaly, I don't think that finding a true #2 d-man is plugging a hole. I don't see any of the kids listed here that may become as complete as McDonaugh. And this discussion doesn't necessarily mean that I want to trade a Beaulieu. But it could be necessary to trade assets or dept to find this elusive #2 d-man.

The point is that waiting for a youngster to developp into a real #2 d-man may be too long to win the cup with the actual core of the team (given the fact that we're in a cap era)
You don't wait indefinitely.

The cup window with this team should be in 2 years from, say 2015-2016 to 2019-2020.

That gives a GM 2 years to develop his kids and evaluate the players in place, then if a big deal is needed during the 15-16 season or 2015 summer, at that point maybe you trade a pick and a top prospect for a guy that fills a need. If you make the deal now the problem is that player's contract might be almost up by the time your window opens plus a young player may be filling that hole(or on the way to).

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10-11-2013, 10:25 AM
  #73
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Way too much short-term negativity in this thread. We're the "Build-Through-The-Draft" team, so let them build.

This season will be about taking one step back to move two steps forward. Tinordi and Beaulieu will make plenty of rookie mistakes, Emelin will take time to shake the rust off when he returns, as will Murray, and expect the occasional glimpses of Pateryn or Dietz to be bumpy. That translates to frustrating missed coverages and stupid goals and more threads like this.

But on balance I think our D is becoming... well... if not great, then at least much more solid. Most of our D is on an upward trend as they gain experience and regain health. Emelin -- assuming he's 100% -- is very good overall, and I say that as someone who was a fan throughout last season and didn't just jump on his bandwagon post-injury. His skating and positioning really improved, and he was fast on his feet and with his stick. Good reflexes and instincts. I'm not sure about Diaz -- he's looked weak -- but there's reason to think he can regain the stronger, more confident style he had last season. Then there are the Learning-Curve Kids -- Tinordi and Beaulieu, plus the prospect pool players. JT and NB have strong NHL potential and will be much stronger and smarter with another season of playing within the system. Same with the other prospects, who are being developed with much more attention than in previous administrations. It's fair to say that Pateryn, Nygren, Dietz may not be anything more than bottom-pairing guys, but don't underestimate a development philosophy that schools these players and lets them grow together!

I'd love to trade or buy an established top-four D, but history tells us the chances of getting that guy are slim. Chances are we already have our top-six defensemen on the team and in the queue. We just need to hope our young prospects have as much potential as some people think. Beaulieu and Tinordi are 1st-rounders who are looking good, the rest are crapshoots, but expect at least one prospect to become a legit player. Overall, the Habs are on their way to becoming a fast, offensive team from the back end out.

The only concern continues to be taking forwards out of the play in our zone and around our own net. Too many sticks flailing for the puck, too few bodies interposing themselves between forward and puck, too many lost battles. This is exactly the hole that Murray fills, but we need our more talented, quicker defensemen to pick up that slack. Can Beaulieu add more defensive responsibility to his skill-set? I think so. He looked focused last night.

But be optimistic. All of our key defensemen are young, the oldest being Gorges at 29, and half of next year's core is learning and improving. Unfortunately, the cost of next year's benefit is more losses this year.
The future looks bright for sure. And I'm all for playing the kids, but they're going to take longer than one year to develop. That means this year and next our D is going to be pretty shaky unless we get some stability there. Hence why a steady guy was really in order this offseason.

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10-11-2013, 10:34 AM
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Emelin and Murray will be back and then it becomes complicated. Beaulieu is not ready in my opinion. He's full of athletic talent but not NHL ready. Tinordi is almost ready but might benefit more by playing 20+ minutes in Hamilton.

I'd go with :

Subban-Murray
Diaz-Emelin
Gorges-Markov
Bouillon

One offensive D and one stay at home on each pairing.

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10-11-2013, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezpz View Post
What? Who the hell could Bergevin have signed. Scuderi only wanted to go to Pittsburgh or LA. The UFA pool was garbage for defense this year. Anyone we would be acquiring would be getting demoted as soon as Emelin returned too. Murray getting injured in training camp isn't Bergevin's fault.
Plus, Scuderi is a reach as #2. He was #2 by default in LA but like Gorges he is more of a #3-4 guy. I would have loved for us to sign Scuderi, but he would have been more of a patch, not a long term solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
"Drafting-and-waiting" only never works. A GM have to make the complementary moves to phase the devlopment logically.

Now you may very well be right and I may very well be wrong, but my view is that d-men take way longer to developp than forwards. So giving the age of our forwards' core, I think it could be too late when the young d-men will be ready (too late in a cap reality). Now I'm not saying to trade or to give up on most young d-man, I'm just saying that Bergevin will have to trade for a real #2 d-man, not very old.

Markov and Gorges will be dangerously past their prime when the forwards will be ready to win, and no young d-man will be ready to take the role of a real #2.

That's why I think that bergevin will have to make a bold move as a #2 d-man cost a lot. And it could be the same for a true power forward.

Nobody is suggesting to use the draft and develop ONLY.

However, the Habs are currently in the "building" phase, adding more building blocks(Gallagher Eller Galchenyuk Tinordi Beaulieu) to the building blocks already in place(Price Subban Plekanec Paciretty).

The UFA and trading aspect is best left until later in the process unless you can make a deal that helps now and in the future. I would be disapointed if we traded guys like Beaulieu Nygren McCarron Collberg De la Rose. Give them a couple years to increase their value and potentially join the current core. Trading for a #2 d-man would no doubt touch those guys, that's why I'm against it. That and the fact that a #2 that would be available would probably be either getting up there in age or nearing free agency so it defeats the purpose of building towards 2-3 years down the road.

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