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Rangers season at crossroads--already

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Old
10-10-2013, 10:10 AM
  #76
tailgunner
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
What coach have you been watching the past 4 years? Tortorella never "sent messages" on the ice
Are you just another hockey revisionist?

I saw Carkner retaliate in the 1st rd 2 years ago after Boyle tried to get rough with Karlson...
Gave him a concussion?
just answer a simple question...why did VC and the whole tampa team attack anisimov after his goal celebration? because that's what a team does...our soft bunch did nothing..plain and simple, and people around the nhl said the same thing....dave Maloney said that if hertl tried that in 1972 in philly or boston, he would left the rink with one limb missing....that is my point, we stood by like lame idiots and did nothing...it shows a pathetic weakness on our team the captain and coach in particular

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10-10-2013, 10:12 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by tailgunner View Post
just answer a simple question...why did VC and the whole tampa team attack anisimov after his goal celebration? because that's what a team does...our soft bunch did nothing..plain and simple, and people around the nhl said the same thing....dave Maloney said that if hertl tried that in 1972 in philly or boston, he would left the rink with one limb missing....that is my point, we stood by like lame idiots and did nothing...it shows a pathetic weakness on our team the captain and coach in particular
Wait, should the coach have jumped on the ice? This isn't AV's fault.

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10-10-2013, 10:21 AM
  #78
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The Torts firing and hiring of AV with the thought that he would take the shackles off his players is reminiscent of Neil Smith, after Messier left and losing out on Joe Sakic, signing Keane and Skrudland (and LaFontaine) and deciding the Rangers were going to be a defensive, trap team. It comes down to the personnel and creating a system that maximizes their strengths.

Look at where AV was coming from? Do you see that kind of offensive talent on this team? What's also concerning is the big knock on AV's Vancouver teams was that were soft. We've seen a soft team so far (outside of the LA game).

It's this team's mindset and demeanor that has carried over from the pre-season that I was alluding to as being a concern. The results in the preseason don't matter. How you go about your business does.
This post defines perfection.

Many of us were ridiculed for "making these boards un bearable" after the Rangers loss to Phoenix. Even though it was the 1st game of the season, it was not problems with the system or lack of scoring that was the issue. It was the complete lack of heart from start to finish. It was evident in Phoenix, somewhat evident in LA and evident again in SJ.

The problems are not the system or un lucky bounces. The problem is a complete lack of enthusiasm and energy on the ice. No system will fix that.

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10-10-2013, 10:22 AM
  #79
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Maybe some core players need to be removed. Some of these guys are too buddy buddy.

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10-10-2013, 10:24 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by KreiMeARiver View Post
Hey man I'm part of that 90%. I see you're part of the 10%. I was wondering if you could tutor me on how things work, and how to evaluate a team?

You're obviously a very calm, professional hockey analyst.
My post has nothing to do with "how" and everything to do with "when". All I am saying is that it is ridiculous to panic after three games under any circumstances, but particularly these circumstances (new coach, stupid schedule, key injuries, etc.).

All of you in the panic camp might be completely correct, and my hat will be off to your prescience if this team is a bottom feeder come mid-season. Until then, I'll personally ignore the small sample size, high variation results and wait and see how things develop.

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10-10-2013, 10:24 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by tailgunner View Post
just answer a simple question...why did VC and the whole tampa team attack anisimov after his goal celebration? because that's what a team does...our soft bunch did nothing..plain and simple, and people around the nhl said the same thing....dave Maloney said that if hertl tried that in 1972 in philly or boston, he would left the rink with one limb missing....that is my point, we stood by like lame idiots and did nothing...it shows a pathetic weakness on our team the captain and coach in particular
I think this is one you put in the memory bank for another day.
I think next time you see Hertl he gets roughed up a bit and "reminded" of that play.

I don't think you should respond physcially when your team had shown zero physicaltiy all night and had mailed the game in.
The correct response should have been not allowing Hertl to float through the crease when the game was 8-2. If someone wanted to level him when he had the puck I would have been all for it.
The Rangers played the last 25 minutes of that game as if it was a scrimmage, yet you want them to be up in arms because the other team did the same?

Your comment about Dave Maloney and 1972 is right on. Problem is that the game was an absoutle embarrassment in 1972. That's Maloneys frame of reference so I get it, but anything that hakens back to early 70's Flyers hockey I want no part of.

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10-10-2013, 10:26 AM
  #82
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Maybe some core players need to be removed. Some of these guys are too buddy buddy.
And none of them care enough about winning. Something drastic changed in the locker room between the 2011-2012 and 2013 season.

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10-10-2013, 10:26 AM
  #83
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This board is sooooooo schizophrenic.

24 hours ago there are an incredible amount of reactionary posts blaming the team for quitting in the San Jose game. Brooks writes an article saying the exact same thing, and he gets reviled on here.

Bizarre.
The board hears voices and has delusions? I think you mean bipolar or manic depressive, maybe even multiple personality disorder

But I agree it's weird how defensive people get when they were saying the same thing shortly. I think it's a case of "I can criticize my kid, but no stranger can".

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10-10-2013, 10:29 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by KreiMeARiver View Post
Hey man I'm part of that 90%. I see you're part of the 10%. I was wondering if you could tutor me on how things work, and how to evaluate a team?

You're obviously a very calm, professional hockey analyst.
Or maybe it's that he's been watching hockey long enough to see teams have bad starts where they go even worse then 1-2 and still become a very good and competative team.

Realistically, this team has been traveling non stop. They were paraded around the country in the pre-season like some circus act and then they started on the road, with multiple home openers in games that were ending at around 1AM to the time zone they are used to. Add to that, new players, a new coach, a couple injuries and a swap from a defensive to offensive system and you are bound to have some serious bumps to start the year.

Has the team looked good, absolutely not. Is there some reason to be concerned, sure. Does that mean that most people on this site seem logical, or that Larry Brooks does, no. Just because people are of a mass opinion, doesn't make them right.

I've seen teams start way worse then this and end up being good. The Kings fired their coach mid-season because of how bad they were playing and won the cup. I'm sure you were at least a fan when that occured.

I used to be like you and the others, but having watched and "analyzed" hockey for pretty much my whole life I've realized somet higns, including slow starts are generally not a forsight into how the team will be performing come the vital games of the season.

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Old
10-10-2013, 10:35 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailgunner View Post
just answer a simple question...why did VC and the whole tampa team attack anisimov after his goal celebration? because that's what a team does...our soft bunch did nothing..plain and simple, and people around the nhl said the same thing....dave Maloney said that if hertl tried that in 1972 in philly or boston, he would left the rink with one limb missing....that is my point, we stood by like lame idiots and did nothing...it shows a pathetic weakness on our team the captain and coach in particular
Am I the only one that sees a difference between a "show-boaty" goal and a flamboyant celebration that directly targeted an opposition player? Where do you draw the line in the sand (on the ice?) between a nice/pretty goal and a show-boaty one deserving of retribution?

Another question, what else did a player have to do in 1972 to warrant a violent response? If I recall correctly, all you had to do was be better than everyone else:

http://vimeo.com/63041317

Those were the days, eh?

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Old
10-10-2013, 10:40 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Realistically, this team has been traveling non stop. They were paraded around the country in the pre-season like some circus act and then they started on the road, with multiple home openers in games that were ending at around 1AM to the time zone they are used to. Add to that, new players, a new coach, a couple injuries and a swap from a defensive to offensive system and you are bound to have some serious bumps to start the year.
They've been on the West Coast for long enough that they should adapt to the time change. And they've been traveling in the lap of luxury. They're not fly coach with multiple layovers.

Mistakes due to the newness of the system (even mental) ones are bound to happen. To come out flat in every game, save one, and play with little heart, intensity or compete level is never excusable. And while there have been injuries, but there are also guys who are playing for contracts or spots. There seems to be very little urgency across the board. The mistakes can be corrected. The flat play and lack of energy is harder to turn on.

That there was no carryover effect from the LA game is remarkable.

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10-10-2013, 10:42 AM
  #87
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Who is a core player that can be removed?

Callahan? The captain, he's not going anywhere.
Nash? Not likely, he's our best offensive threat.
Stepan? Too young, filling too big a need, tons of upside - he's staying.
McD? Of course not.
Richards? Good start to the season, but recapture and who is taking him anyway?
Brassard? Just got here.
Hagelin? Cheap, provides a ton of speed and some offense, good defensively.
Staal? He's been our best player so far this season.
Moore? Young D man just traded for.

Who is left?
Boyle
MDZ
Zucc
Girardi

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10-10-2013, 10:46 AM
  #88
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This post defines perfection.

Many of us were ridiculed for "making these boards un bearable" after the Rangers loss to Phoenix. Even though it was the 1st game of the season, it was not problems with the system or lack of scoring that was the issue. It was the complete lack of heart from start to finish. It was evident in Phoenix, somewhat evident in LA and evident again in SJ.

The problems are not the system or un lucky bounces. The problem is a complete lack of enthusiasm and energy on the ice. No system will fix that.
Absolutely. It's a personnel problem, right now. AV's coaching style will only compound that problem.

This ain't getting fixed anytime soon. That's the problem I have with all of you eternal optimists; you don't seem to understand all of the factors in play, and the reality of the situation.

No "system" of AV's is going to fix that, as stated above. We put a pretty nice band-aid on a broken leg with Torts...and we've since ripped that band-aid off, and with a few moves and free-agent losses (Prust, etc.), that broken leg has become a compound fracture.

The "it's only 3 games" argument just shows that they don't see the forest through the trees.


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10-10-2013, 10:48 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by KreiMeARiver View Post
Absolutely. It's a personnel problem, right now. AV's coaching style will only compound that problem.

This ain't getting fixed anytime soon. That's the problem I have with all of you eternal optimists; you don't seem to see understand all of the factors in play, and the reality of the situation.
To me, it just felt as though there was a slap-dash nature to the coaching search this summer where the powers that be were saying one thing and doing another.

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10-10-2013, 10:51 AM
  #90
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Vancouver wasn't a soft team when they lost to Boston in the finals. In 11-12,Vancouver played Boston in Boston on a Saturday afternoon. First game since the Cup finals. That was a mean and nasty game. VAN came out on top. 4-3. I liked watching that Canucks team under AV. They were always the best watch late at night before going to sleep. It takes time for a new coach to implement his system and find the right players. Even the 93-94 Rangers got off a brutal start. I remember they were run out of the building by TB. That wasn't pretty. Dropped them to 4-5 and it was their 3rd straight loss. They lost to the Mighty Ducks at home in a game which was worse than the TB game. The Rangers lost an expansion team and a 2nd year team in back to back games. James Patrick and Darren Turcotte were ex-Rangers and Steve Larmer and Nick Kypreos were new Rangers a short time later. Its very rare for a new coach to lead a team to the Cup in the first season unless the team is like the 94 Rangers or 09 Penguins. The Rangers are a work in progress. They won't admit it publicly.


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Old
10-10-2013, 10:51 AM
  #91
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To me, it just felt as though there was a slap-dash nature to the coaching search this summer where the powers that be were saying one thing and doing another.
Serious question not meant to be sarcastic - Who did you want to coach this team?

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10-10-2013, 10:51 AM
  #92
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Brooks is overreacting as usual, Game 3 of the season is not a turning point of the season.

However, I do agree with him that there is no excuse for lack of work ethic. And the onus is the on the players to prove that they can play in this system (not necessarily in Game 3, but hopefully sometime by November-December).
If it takes the Rangers until December to find their stride under the new coach, this won't be a playoff team. You can't throw away 2 months of the season and expect to compete.

They need to start finding their game by the 7-8 game mark. If it's still like this by game 15, 16, 17, etc, it will be an uphill battle the entire season.

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10-10-2013, 10:54 AM
  #93
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Maybe some core players need to be removed. Some of these guys are too buddy buddy.
If there's one thing we can be sure of, buddy buddy, inside joke, grab-assing won't be tolerated by HFNYR so they better shape up.

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10-10-2013, 11:15 AM
  #94
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If it takes the Rangers until December to find their stride under the new coach, this won't be a playoff team. You can't throw away 2 months of the season and expect to compete.

They need to start finding their game by the 7-8 game mark. If it's still like this by game 15, 16, 17, etc, it will be an uphill battle the entire season.
I definitely agree - sooner rather than later is ideal. Unfortunately, the team has been a little slow to adapt to new coaches/systems in the past so I'll be surprised if they get their act together in 2 weeks from now. And I'm not entirely convinced that the team is capable of executing the system, but that's another story altogether.

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10-10-2013, 11:17 AM
  #95
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I definitely agree - sooner rather than later is ideal. Unfortunately, the team has been a little slow to adapt to new coaches/systems in the past so I'll be surprised if they get their act together in 2 weeks from now. And I'm not entirely convinced that the team is capable of executing the system, but that's another story altogether.
They got off to slow start last season and never really "found it."

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10-10-2013, 11:21 AM
  #96
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BBKers, interesting stuff.
It was not interesting. He literally said nothing. It was simply an excuse to boost his own e-ego.

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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Just reading between the lines. And the guy has proven to have some good info in the past.
He has proven little to nothing in my eyes. One of the loudest of the mindless "FIRE TORTS, CAVE MAN HOCKEY UGHGHGH" crowd on these boards. And now 3 games into a new coach - what he wanted - he's hopping off the bandwagon and all but poised to throw him under the bus? Give me a break. Short sightedness at its finest. The definition of these boards.

And for the record, I am not a fan of AV, don't like the approach it seems like he takes to coaching, and didn't want Torts fired. But I'm not going to throw AV under the bus after 3 regular season games. This is on Sather and the personnel, as has been repeated ad nauseum.


But, to keep it on topic: **** Brooksy. Also one of the loudest critics of Torts; now after just three games when the team struggles without him, it might have been the wrong move to fire him and Brooksy is walking it back? Give me a break. Full of hot air.

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10-10-2013, 11:23 AM
  #97
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They've been on the West Coast for long enough that they should adapt to the time change. And they've been traveling in the lap of luxury. They're not fly coach with multiple layovers.

Mistakes due to the newness of the system (even mental) ones are bound to happen. To come out flat in every game, save one, and play with little heart, intensity or compete level is never excusable. And while there have been injuries, but there are also guys who are playing for contracts or spots. There seems to be very little urgency across the board. The mistakes can be corrected. The flat play and lack of energy is harder to turn on.

That there was no carryover effect from the LA game is remarkable.
Just because they travel in luxury doesn't make it easy. You realize they got on a flight after the LA game. It's not like they went home and went to sleep.

They probably got to their hotels at like 1 or 2am.

Look, there's no excuse for losing 9-2. But people are saying blow up the team, we're doomed, etc, is so premature and pathetic.

There are times to be worried and to panic, 3 games into the season is not one of them.

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10-10-2013, 11:26 AM
  #98
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Hopefully all the knee hockey in the hotel hallways brings them close together.
This brought back fond memories of myself at 12 years old in the Can/Am tournament in Lake Placid and doing this with my teammates in the hotel hallways. Good times!

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10-10-2013, 11:29 AM
  #99
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Just because they travel in luxury doesn't make it easy. You realize they got on a flight after the LA game. It's not like they went home and went to sleep.
They got on a bus, was taken directly to their charter flight and flew about two hours. But the fact still remains, they've spent more time on the West Coast than they have the East Coast for the last month or so.

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They probably got to their hotels at like 1 or 2am.
How much earlier than that do you think they get home from home games (especially if they live in Westchester)?

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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Look, there's no excuse for losing 9-2. But people are saying blow up the team, we're doomed, etc, is so premature and pathetic.
I don't see anyone saying blow up the team. I do see questioning how the team was created and if AV the right choice for the team based in personnel. It the very least, I don't the GM to blow up the team correctly.

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There are times to be worried and to panic, 3 games into the season is not one of them.
But see, it's not 3 games. It's 10 games. The lack off effort we saw in the preseason has carrie over.

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10-10-2013, 11:29 AM
  #100
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Brooks is an idiot. Win 2nite and spirits are high after a low last game

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