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Rangers season at crossroads--already

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Old
10-10-2013, 02:34 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by tjs252 View Post
I disagree with the premise of the article.

The Rangers are not at a crossroads now. The Rangers were at a crossroads last season at the deadline with a team ostensibly built for offense being asked to play defense under a coach that would not change a system to fit the players on the roster all while having significant choices to make about players and the looming cap problem. The Rangers made a change that, with the benefit of hindsight, probably was unwise, but that's a different story.
Its a shame they didn't keep that top heavy Richards/Nash/Gaborik roster together, then fired Torts, so you could've seen exactly how wrong you are.

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10-10-2013, 02:35 PM
  #177
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I wouldn't go that far. He had 5 goals and 7 points in 18 games. He just played well against the Devils when most of our team wasn't playing too great. Him being fresh and everyone else tired made him stand out even more.
I was attempting to make a point. A poor one apparently. I was trying to get across that it looked like we at least had a top 6 winger in the making.

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10-10-2013, 02:39 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
I always laugh when I hear build a team the right way. There is no one right way to build a team. If there was then every team would be doing it. Teams like the Oilers have had great draft position after great draft position. You have to build a team through the draft, trades, and FA. There is no 1 way to do it. Even then it takes some luck and good fortune. Look at the champions. Was LA built the same way as Pitt? Was Chicago built the same way as NJ?
I would say yes. Yes they were.

the core players for each of those championship teams were acquired via the draft.

LA - Drafted Quick, Brown, Kopitar, Doughty. They used drafted players in Schenn, Simmonds for Richards.

Pitt - Drafted Letang, Fleury, Staal, Sid, Malkin and used a drafted player in goligoski to acquire Neal

Chicago - drafted Kane, Towes, Keith, Seabrook, Big Buff, Brouwer, Niemi (FA signing out of EUR)

NJ - Their core were also mainly home grown guys.

The key to successful franchises, based on the above teams that you provided a list of, is to build through the draft and have THOSE players be your best players and then sprinkle FA's and smart trades throughout the roster.

To me, the path is clear.

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10-10-2013, 02:39 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You were suggesting that moving pieces of the core was a major problem, and went on to suggest Dubinsky and Anisimov were parts of it, which is a dubious assertation at best
Thanks, that's how I took it too. I was just trying to say that when all your homegrown players are basically the same one dimensional type of 2nd-3rd liners then you have no voice but to trade them for skill and scoring ability or you have to overpay in FA. I would generally agree that trading core pieces isn't a great move but sometimes the core just isn't that good or good enough and that's when you have to reevaluate where your team is at and what their true ceiling is. You can't draft Dubi's and Cally's all the time and then put pressure on them to be more than what they are capable of.

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10-10-2013, 02:51 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I would say yes. Yes they were.

the core players for each of those championship teams were acquired via the draft.

LA - Drafted Quick, Brown, Kopitar, Doughty. They used drafted players in Schenn, Simmonds for Richards.

Pitt - Drafted Letang, Fleury, Staal, Sid, Malkin and used a drafted player in goligoski to acquire Neal

Chicago - drafted Kane, Towes, Keith, Seabrook, Big Buff, Brouwer, Niemi (FA signing out of EUR)

NJ - Their core were also mainly home grown guys.

The key to successful franchises, based on the above teams that you provided a list of, is to build through the draft and have THOSE players be your best players and then sprinkle FA's and smart trades throughout the roster.

To me, the path is clear.
Good post. I'd argue that NJ doesn't belong in the equation because they were pre-lockout 1.0.

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10-10-2013, 03:13 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Hertl, the guy that just smoked us? 17th overall pick.

I think its time we put to rest the inflated prowess of Gordie Clark and company.
In Gordie we trust! Lol.

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10-10-2013, 03:15 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I would say yes. Yes they were.

the core players for each of those championship teams were acquired via the draft.

LA - Drafted Quick, Brown, Kopitar, Doughty. They used drafted players in Schenn, Simmonds for Richards.

Pitt - Drafted Letang, Fleury, Staal, Sid, Malkin and used a drafted player in goligoski to acquire Neal

Chicago - drafted Kane, Towes, Keith, Seabrook, Big Buff, Brouwer, Niemi (FA signing out of EUR)

NJ - Their core were also mainly home grown guys.

The key to successful franchises, based on the above teams that you provided a list of, is to build through the draft and have THOSE players be your best players and then sprinkle FA's and smart trades throughout the roster.

To me, the path is clear.
The path is clear, but here we are again staring at the fundamental difference between all of these teams, and the Rangers, which is, they are not the Rangers. In no way shape or form during the ownership of the Dolans and tenure of Glen Sather will this team ever be built from the ground up through the draft at the risk of being in the bottom tier of teams, and not making the playoffs. The goal of this franchise, despite all their PR claims, is not to win a cup, it's just to make the playoffs where anything can happen. By anything I mean selling out tickets at outrageous prices for a couple of rounds if they're lucky. Mediocrity still sells.

You cannot point to teams like Pitt, Chicago, and LA especially and say, "look how they did it!" because that's just never going to happen in New York.

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10-10-2013, 03:21 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I would say yes. Yes they were.

the core players for each of those championship teams were acquired via the draft.

LA - Drafted Quick, Brown, Kopitar, Doughty. They used drafted players in Schenn, Simmonds for Richards.

Pitt - Drafted Letang, Fleury, Staal, Sid, Malkin and used a drafted player in goligoski to acquire Neal

Chicago - drafted Kane, Towes, Keith, Seabrook, Big Buff, Brouwer, Niemi (FA signing out of EUR)

NJ - Their core were also mainly home grown guys.

The key to successful franchises, based on the above teams that you provided a list of, is to build through the draft and have THOSE players be your best players and then sprinkle FA's and smart trades throughout the roster.

To me, the path is clear.
You just described pretty much how most teams try to build including us. Step, Staal, Hank drafted. Nash and Mcd added via trade. Girardi via FA. The bad teams and good teams all try to build through the draft, trades, and FA. You just described how many bad teams have been built as well as good. If you had a guaranteed way to build a champion you would be doing it.

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10-10-2013, 03:22 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Hertl, the guy that just smoked us? 17th overall pick.

I think its time we put to rest the inflated prowess of Gordie Clark and company.
One game

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10-10-2013, 03:22 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
The path is clear, but here we are again staring at the fundamental difference between all of these teams, and the Rangers, which is, they are not the Rangers. In no way shape or form during the ownership of the Dolans and tenure of Glen Sather will this team ever be built from the ground up through the draft at the risk of being in the bottom tier of teams, and not making the playoffs. The goal of this franchise, despite all their PR claims, is not to win a cup, it's just to make the playoffs where anything can happen. By anything I mean selling out tickets at outrageous prices for a couple of rounds if they're lucky. Mediocrity still sells.

You cannot point to teams like Pitt, Chicago, and LA especially and say, "look how they did it!" because that's just never going to happen in New York.
So basically we have to wait for the owner to die like Chicago did? Then people wonder why this place is all doom and gloom and why everyone is so pessimistic

I'm not even disagreeing with you, you're 100% right, it won't happen here which means we get what we have now and the only chance at success is on a wing and a prayer. If the path to building a contending team is clear but we choose to ignore it then we get what we deserve and we all just have to accept mediocrity!

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10-10-2013, 03:23 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
The path is clear, but here we are again staring at the fundamental difference between all of these teams, and the Rangers, which is, they are not the Rangers. In no way shape or form during the ownership of the Dolans and tenure of Glen Sather will this team ever be built from the ground up through the draft at the risk of being in the bottom tier of teams, and not making the playoffs. The goal of this franchise, despite all their PR claims, is not to win a cup, it's just to make the playoffs where anything can happen. By anything I mean selling out tickets at outrageous prices for a couple of rounds if they're lucky. Mediocrity still sells.

You cannot point to teams like Pitt, Chicago, and LA especially and say, "look how they did it!" because that's just never going to happen in New York.
Great post. Depressing but great. It's not going to change until people stop filling Dolan's pockets.

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10-10-2013, 03:28 PM
  #187
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While I agree Dolan/Sather will never allow this team to be bad enough to have consecutive years of top 10 or so picks, it's extremely ingenuous to act like PIT/CHI/LA were "purposely bad" for a number of years.

Were they extremely mediocre? Yes. Did they essentially tank like you could perhaps argue EDM/COL/NYI(maybe) have done in recent years? Not at all.

People always ***** that the Rangers refuse to be a bottom 10 team in exchange for being a 7/8 seed and lose in the first round, but if this team missed the playoffs 9/10 years like Chicago did, there wouldn't be a fan base for this team. This team's business model is built on band wagoners.

I'd even go as far as saying that probably a 1/3 of the people that wish this team would fail now for future successes wouldn't give a **** until they won the cup anyways.

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10-10-2013, 03:30 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
Sort of, they all made way more good moves than bad ones. Whether through the draft, trades, signings, they all took their resources at hand and made championship teams.

However it's difficult to find too many championship teams that did not have at least two or three really good drafts in the years prior leading up to their cup year(s) Not too many of them spent their cap money on players who ended up not performing to at least an adequate level. Not too many won by renting or signing UFAs as their top end players.
I agree that most championship teams had some good draft years but don't all teams try to have draft success? Edmonton has had super high picks for years. Aren't they trying to pick well? Teams often will mix in top end players wherever they can get them. Did we draft Messier? Did Dallas draft Hull, Nyendyk, or their goalie? Did Tampa draft Marty? Did Chicago draft Hossa? Did LA draft Richards or Carter? All teams look to improve every way they can be it the draft, trades, or FA. If a 90 point scorer is available in a trade do we say no because we didn't draft him?

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10-10-2013, 03:31 PM
  #189
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Chicago made a great trade for Patrick Sharp.

Quote:
"I remember that when he had the puck, he was a great player, but the rest of his game he still had to work on," former Flyers GM Bob Clarke told ESPN.com on Tuesday. "We brought him up with the Flyers. Again, he was really terrific with the puck, but without it he still had to learn the rest of the game.

"And we were a good team; he wasn't getting any ice time to speak of. He wasn't playing regularly. So you start running out of time with these young players. If they can't get regular ice time, they can't develop.

"Obviously it's a trade we would regret. A third-round pick for Patrick is nothing."

In December 2005, a few weeks before his 24th birthday, Sharp was sent to Chicago along with Eric Meloche in exchange for Matt Ellison and Chicago's third-round choice (later traded to the Montreal Canadiens, who selected Ryan White) in the 2006 draft.

Sharp, taken by the Flyers in the third round of the 2001 draft and traded to Chicago in 2005, has established himself at all three forward positions.

Clarke made some great trades during his time as Flyers GM, keeping the team nearly always in contention, but he's the first to admit where this one ranks.

"It was a lousy trade on our part," he said. "But give credit to [former Hawks GM] Dale Tallon. No other team was lining up for him. Only the Blackhawks with Dale.

"Patrick's a great player now. But when he got to Chicago, they were a lousy team, and they were putting in young players his age and just played them. They weren't trying to win; they were just developing players. It worked great for Patrick. He became the player that he would have become with us had we had the patience and time to develop him.
http://espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs/2013...t-anyone-hawks

Amazing that more teams weren't in on Sharp. Tallon also made a nice deal for Versteeg from Boston.
Ruutu for Ladd gave both players a change of scenery. Barker for Johnsson and Leddy. Bowman traded Versteeg to Toronto for Stalberg. Bowman traded Skille to Tallon for Frolik. The trade for Oduya was huge.

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10-10-2013, 03:33 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by LeetchisGod View Post
Great post. Depressing but great. It's not going to change until people stop filling Dolan's pockets.
Well there was a very long time in recent memory where the rangers missed the playoffs.

1997-1998 - 2004-2005

so what was the excuse then ?

First Round Picks:

1994: Dan Cloutier (26th overall)
1995: none
1996: Jeff Brown (22nd overall)
1997: Stefan Cherneski (19th overall)
1998: Manny Malhotra (seventh overall)
1999: Pavel Brendl (fourth overall) & Jamie Lundmark (ninth)
2000: none
2001: Dan Blackburn (10th overall)
2002: none
2003: Hugh Jessiman (12th overall)
2004: Al Montoya (6th overall) & Lauri Korpikoski (19th)
2005: Marc Staal (12th overall)

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10-10-2013, 03:34 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
You just described pretty much how most teams try to build including us. Step, Staal, Hank drafted. Nash and Mcd added via trade. Girardi via FA. The bad teams and good teams all try to build through the draft, trades, and FA. You just described how many bad teams have been built as well as good. If you had a guaranteed way to build a champion you would be doing it.
Well of course everyone uses the same methods to build a team, they are the only ways to acquire players. The difference is in how you use those methods. Every team gets players through the draft but what you're not mentioning is that the talent level of the player in most cases is higher the higher the pick is made. Picking in the middle of the pack has gotten us exactly where we are, middle of the pack in this league.

The best thing to happen to this team and franchise is to bottom out instead of artificially inflating its position every year to just get by, make the playoffs and generate revenue but it won't happen here

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10-10-2013, 03:38 PM
  #192
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Um

We have built this team thru the draft

Stepan Staal Lundqvist Callahan Our 4 best players

Developed Girardi and mcdonagh pretty much home grown

Traded for a superstar rick Nash by trading drafted players

And have only ONE big ticket UFA in brad Richards

We never bottomed out to get our Crosby or Malkin

But neither has Detroit or LA or Boston really

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10-10-2013, 03:38 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
This team's business model is built on band wagoners.
No, you're confusing New York with Pittsburgh.

Team like Chicago, New York, Toronto, et al. have the dedicated true hockey fan base to get through a poor stretch of bottom feeder teams long enough to bounce back and not be much worse for wear. Pittsburgh was going to lose their team if they didn't get Crosby and Malkin. Now a large majority of their current fan base exists on the success of their lottery draft pick star players.

The problem is not the Rangers surviving a few years of bottom 5 teams, it's why the hell would Dolan ever do that when he is currently making a killing and renovating his arena? I'm sure he'd like to continue filling that new arena and its egregiously overpriced seats for as long as possible, and raising ticket prices along the way. You cannot justify a ticket price hike if your team is ranking 25-30.

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10-10-2013, 03:39 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by NYRKindms View Post
Well there was a very long time in recent memory where the rangers missed the playoffs.

1997-1998 - 2004-2005

so what was the excuse then ?

First Round Picks:

1994: Dan Cloutier (26th overall)
1995: none
1996: Jeff Brown (22nd overall)
1997: Stefan Cherneski (19th overall)
1998: Manny Malhotra (seventh overall)
1999: Pavel Brendl (fourth overall) & Jamie Lundmark (ninth)
2000: none
2001: Dan Blackburn (10th overall)
2002: none
2003: Hugh Jessiman (12th overall)
2004: Al Montoya (6th overall) & Lauri Korpikoski (19th)
2005: Marc Staal (12th overall)
Bad luck on when the Rangers decided to be absolute crap, combined with bad scouting.

A bunch of historically bad draft years (96 & 99), terrible injuries (Blackburn & Cherneski) and big time misses in the biggest spots (Jessiman & Montoya).

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10-10-2013, 03:43 PM
  #195
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People always ***** that the Rangers refuse to be a bottom 10 team in exchange for being a 7/8 seed and lose in the first round, but if this team missed the playoffs 9/10 years like Chicago did, there wouldn't be a fan base for this team. This team's business model is built on band wagoners.

I'd even go as far as saying that probably a 1/3 of the people that wish this team would fail now for future successes wouldn't give a **** until they won the cup anyways.
That just complete BS, sorry but it is. We missed the playoffs 7 straight years and nobody went anywhere and if we would have spent those years truly rebuilding instead of just missing the playoffs we probably would have more homegrown players with skill instead of just plugs and grinders mixed with some good dmen.

As far as people not caring until they won the cup, I doubt anyone who has chosen to root for this team and spend time on this website feels that way and neither do the real fans who aren't just at MSG to kiss corporate butt and "network"

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10-10-2013, 03:45 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by NYRKindms View Post
Well there was a very long time in recent memory where the rangers missed the playoffs.

1997-1998 - 2004-2005

so what was the excuse then ?

First Round Picks:

1994: Dan Cloutier (26th overall)
1995: none
1996: Jeff Brown (22nd overall)
1997: Stefan Cherneski (19th overall)
1998: Manny Malhotra (seventh overall)
1999: Pavel Brendl (fourth overall) & Jamie Lundmark (ninth)
2000: none
2001: Dan Blackburn (10th overall)
2002: none
2003: Hugh Jessiman (12th overall)
2004: Al Montoya (6th overall) & Lauri Korpikoski (19th)
2005: Marc Staal (12th overall)
The scouting has improved significantly since that period of time, and back then people still thought Cups could be bought, rather than cultured. Even though the scouts NYR employ currently are not best in show, if they had the reigns of this team during that time period, I have a feeling that list would look a lot different.

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10-10-2013, 03:51 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
Well of course everyone uses the same methods to build a team, they are the only ways to acquire players. The difference is in how you use those methods. Every team gets players through the draft but what you're not mentioning is that the talent level of the player in most cases is higher the higher the pick is made. Picking in the middle of the pack has gotten us exactly where we are, middle of the pack in this league.

The best thing to happen to this team and franchise is to bottom out instead of artificially inflating its position every year to just get by, make the playoffs and generate revenue but it won't happen here

How many years is your surefire way to build a team try to lose games plan to be in effect? If this is the key to success why don't all teams do it? Why dont they hire you as a GM to win the cup? Looks like Florida, Edmonton, Nashville, etc have had high draft picks for almost a decade. Maybe it is not as sure a thing as you think?

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10-10-2013, 03:59 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
How many years is your surefire way to build a team try to lose games plan to be in effect? If this is the key to success why don't all teams do it? Why dont they hire you as a GM to win the cup? Looks like Florida, Edmonton, Nashville, etc have had high draft picks for almost a decade. Maybe it is not as sure a thing as you think?
I never said try to lose games on purpose or to tank and I definitely didn't say it was surefire. I said play to the natural talent level you have until the talent reaches a level where making smart UFA signings and trades allows you to build a contender by supporting the talent you acquired drafting high. If that means you end up the worst team in the league then so be it, its better than trying to fill holes with players who are overpaid and can't deliver more than just enough to carry a team to a 7th/8th seed. The reason those teams have failed is because they have historically had really poor people in charge of making decisions along with not having high operating budgets to help acquire talent to support those picks. I know one thing though, I would much rather be drafting Hall, Weber, Huberdeau type players instead of forwards and dmen all cut from the same cloth like we have and whose talent level isn't enough to get us where we want and need to be.

The real problem though is that as long as Dolan only cares about selling tickets and Sather is still the one make decisions it's all for not. We had our 7 year window to bottom out and rebuild properly but we didn't. What some may have to realize and accept, as hard as it may be, is that we most likely will have to suffer though another period like that at some point and time. The question is how long will we prolong the inevitable!

Just because I express my opinion doesn't mean I think I should be GM! I thought that's why we are here on a message board and quite frankly you didn't really offer up anyone solutions of your own so why don't you to tell me what you would do instead of being smug!


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10-10-2013, 04:19 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
How many years is your surefire way to build a team try to lose games plan to be in effect? If this is the key to success why don't all teams do it? Why dont they hire you as a GM to win the cup? Looks like Florida, Edmonton, Nashville, etc have had high draft picks for almost a decade. Maybe it is not as sure a thing as you think?
Florida and Nashville are not big market, cap teams. Neither team has picked 1st overall in a long time, And I dont think Nashville ever has. Edmonton's drafting strategy has neglected key pieces on D. McKenzie confirmed that the majority of Edmonton's scouts wanted Ryan Murray, but the call for Yakupov came from up on high. They are also poorly managed (constant coaching changes, owner butting in to hockey decisions, ect).

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10-10-2013, 04:25 PM
  #200
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I think the answer is clear boys, we need Avery!

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