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Rangers season at crossroads--already

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10-10-2013, 09:41 PM
  #251
NickyFotiu
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Originally Posted by LeetchisGod View Post
People aren't going to want to hear it but trading Lundqvist is a potential strategy for improving this team long term. Particularly if we could get a quality goaltending prospect, a high quality forward prospect and a first round pick in return.
It would have to be if the plan if to lose and hope for a great player. He will not be around long enough for that plan.

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10-10-2013, 09:43 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
Seguin helped them win a cup? Yes. Caused them to win a cup? Not by a long shot. The 2nd round picks, the 3rd round picks, Tim Thomas in goal and Chara cause them to win a cup. Cambell and Horton had nothing to do with Kessel

My plan is the same plan every real GM has. We keep trying to improve our team every chance we get via the draft, trades and FA. Not pretend that we can plan to lose and be guaranteed that we will luck out in to great players for sure and the time to develop them all in to a champion team.

I told you my plan but you seem reluctant to tell us your plan to lose. How are you going to do it? How long will it take? What will you do with all the guys we already drafted and Lundy?
Helped = Caused, they don't do it without him. You can say Campbell and Horton had nothing to do with it all you like, it doesn't make it any less true. They don't win without those 3 players. You have your head in the sand on this one.

What do you want to hear? You know how a tank works.

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10-10-2013, 09:46 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
Seguin helped them win a cup? Yes. Caused them to win a cup? Not by a long shot. The 2nd round picks, the 3rd round picks, Tim Thomas in goal and Chara cause them to win a cup. Cambell and Horton had nothing to do with Kessel

My plan is the same plan every real GM has. We keep trying to improve our team every chance we get via the draft, trades and FA. Not pretend that we can plan to lose and be guaranteed that we will luck out in to great players for sure and the time to develop them all in to a champion team.

I told you my plan but you seem reluctant to tell us your plan to lose. How are you going to do it? How long will it take? What will you do with all the guys we already drafted and Lundy?
Well if your plan is just like every real GM then how come you are here on a message board? Are they not aware of your great talent? Way to go, you don't sound presumptuous at all

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10-10-2013, 09:47 PM
  #254
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Crosby 1 cup
Malkin 1 cup
Stamkos 0 cups
Ovechkin 0 cups
Tavares 0 cups
Kane 2 cups
Toews 2 cups
Bergeron 2nd round pick
E. Staal 1 cup
Nash 0 cups
Perry 0 cups
Karlsson 0 cups drafted 15th not high
Sedins 0 cups
Hall 0 cups
Giroux 0 cups drafted in the teens not high
Datsyuk 6th round pick
Neal 0 cups drafted #33
Zetterberg 7th round pick

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10-10-2013, 09:48 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
Helped = Caused, they don't do it without him. You can say Campbell and Horton had nothing to do with it all you like, it doesn't make it any less true. They don't win without those 3 players. You have your head in the sand on this one.

What do you want to hear? You know how a tank works.
I didnt say they had nothing to do with the cup. All players on the team play a role. I said they had nothing to do with Kessel

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10-10-2013, 09:49 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by LeetchisGod View Post
People aren't going to want to hear it but trading Lundqvist is a potential strategy for improving this team long term. Particularly if we could get a quality goaltending prospect, a high quality forward prospect and a first round pick in return. Play guys like kreider, miller, fasth and lindberg. Without Hank we are a lottery team and perhaps the ping pong balls bounce our way and we end up with reinhart. I would also love to get a first round pick for MDZ. What use is an offensive d-man who can't quarterback a powerplay and can't shoot? I would take my chances with three first round picks in the upcoming draft.
I actually completely agree, particularly in light of his upcoming raise in salary, although I think the team around him is good enough now to not be a lottery team in his absence. I consider trading Henrik not because I plan to tank, but because I think the variance at the goaltender position is small enough that dumping $8M+ there is a mistake.

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10-10-2013, 09:49 PM
  #257
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I didnt say they had nothing to do with the cup. All players on the team play a role. I said they had nothing to do with Kessel
They don't have the freedom to trade their own 1st without also having Toronto's. Fact.

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10-10-2013, 09:50 PM
  #258
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Well if your plan is just like every real GM then how come you are here on a message board? Are they not aware of your great talent? Way to go, you don't sound presumptuous at all
Because I was not the person that claimed he knew how to build a team "the right way". I know what I see which is every GM tries to build his team through the draft, FA, and trades. I do not have any special formula to win a cup. I said I did. If I had the chance I would do exactly what they all do. Some succeed at it. Some do not but they all do it.

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10-10-2013, 09:50 PM
  #259
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We all know who Brook is, BRF. But he is right. It is early. And the team is small and not nearly gritty enough. However, the utter lack of effort and the "quit" that was exhibited is alarming. Couple that with not being prepared to play in Phoenix and the sheer lack of hustle that was exhibited that game, it is not too early to be alarmed.

The team would have NEVER played like this under Torts. The players feared stepping onto the ice and not giving 100%. If they did, they would have been either benched, demoted or scratched.

Now, I do not see the fear. The "feel-good" approach of AV does not have the players fearing not to hustle.

The floating has been evident in preaseason and in 2 out of 3 games. Torts was fired because the players decided that he stifles their creativity. Turns out, they do not have the creativity that they thought they did.
TB, if it were 15 games later, I would totally agree - but as of right now, I think it's early to draw that conclusion. Sometimes games just get away from you, especially under the circumstances involved. If it keeps happening, then yes, I'd totally get behind major changes. As it is, I don't think either the LAK or SJ games should be given more or less emphasis in evaluating this team.

Don't get me wrong, there are parts I would've wanted to change even before the first game - Richards (obviously, but that ship has sailed), Pyatt, MDZ, Boyle (at center anyway), Zucc (intriguing player, but we don't have enough size to support him) and perhaps Girardi. But, major changes - including a coaching change - should be reserved until after mid-November (barring a historic meltdown). I don't even want to see more than one or two callups before November - I really like what I see in HFD, and I want those kids to get a chance to build something before we bring them up to the NHL.




And BTW, if the sky really IS falling (I don't think it is, but let's just say so for argument's sake), can we FINALLY play the kids, let the chips fall where they may and take a top five pick for once? No more of this ******** apply bandaids to get into the playoffs?

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10-10-2013, 09:51 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
Crosby 1 cup
Malkin 1 cup
Stamkos 0 cups
Ovechkin 0 cups
Tavares 0 cups
Kane 2 cups
Toews 2 cups
Bergeron 2nd round pick
E. Staal 1 cup
Nash 0 cups
Perry 0 cups
Karlsson 0 cups drafted 15th not high
Sedins 0 cups
Hall 0 cups
Giroux 0 cups drafted in the teens not high
Datsyuk 6th round pick
Neal 0 cups drafted #33
Zetterberg 7th round pick
Rangers since sather took over 0 cups

But nah, let's just keep doing what we've been doing! And then when he is finally fired you can be GM cause you think just like a real one would right buddy?

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10-10-2013, 09:51 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
They don't have the freedom to trade their own 1st without also having Toronto's. Fact.
Really? There is a law that if they kept Kessel they could not trade their own pick in 2010?

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10-10-2013, 09:51 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
Crosby 1 cup
Malkin 1 cup
Stamkos 0 cups
Ovechkin 0 cups
Tavares 0 cups
Kane 2 cups
Toews 2 cups
Bergeron 2nd round pick
E. Staal 1 cup
Nash 0 cups
Perry 0 cups
Karlsson 0 cups drafted 15th not high
Sedins 0 cups
Hall 0 cups
Giroux 0 cups drafted in the teens not high
Datsyuk 6th round pick
Neal 0 cups drafted #33
Zetterberg 7th round pick
Looks like a lot more cups than the Rangers have had over the last 20 years.

Oh, and Corey Perry won in 2007

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10-10-2013, 09:52 PM
  #263
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Really? There is a law that if they kept Kessel they could not trade their own pick in 2010?
Yes, the law of logic.

The Bruins traded away their 1st round pick in 2011 as well. They also had Torontos 1st rounder that year.

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10-10-2013, 09:52 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
Looks like a lot more cups than the Rangers have had over the last 20 years.

Oh, and Corey Perry won in 2007
That is shocking that a dozen teams would have more cups than 1 team. Where are all the 1-5 draft picks that did little on your list? I bet a lot more of them never won cups.

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10-10-2013, 09:53 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
Yes, the law of logic.

The Bruins traded away their 1st round pick in 2011 as well. They also had Torontos 1st rounder that year.
The law of logic? In other words the law of your own speculation.

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10-10-2013, 09:55 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
The law of logic? In other words the law of your own speculation.
No. Logic dictates you can't prove a negative. But who cares, what happened is known.

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10-10-2013, 09:56 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
The law of logic? In other words the law of your own speculation.
I'm sorry, you do know what logic is, right?
I even provided you with another example of the exact same thing happening.

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10-10-2013, 09:57 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
Helped = Caused, they don't do it without him. You can say Campbell and Horton had nothing to do with it all you like, it doesn't make it any less true. They don't win without those 3 players. You have your head in the sand on this one.

What do you want to hear? You know how a tank works.
I want to hear how you would make sure our team loses enough games to get very high draft picks year after years so you can draft enough great players to develop and get together in time to win a championship before salaries and other factors play a role. You imply you can do it but never say how. I keep asking how and none of you tankers ever give real details.

Do you have a way to avoid injuries and deaths?

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10-10-2013, 09:59 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Championship View Post
I'm sorry, you do know what logic is, right?
I even provided you with another example of the exact same thing happening.
Logic involves reason. Reason involves using facts not theory and speculation. Your 1 plus 1 equals 5 theories are a stretch at best.

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10-10-2013, 10:00 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
I want to hear how you would make sure our team loses enough games to get very high draft picks year after years so you can draft enough great players to develop and get together in time to win a championship before salaries and other factors play a role. You imply you can do it but never say how. I keep asking how and none of you tankers ever give real details.

Do you have a way to avoid injuries and deaths?
Deaths? You've now gone so far into one direction that you've reached the point of complete nonsense.

How do you avoid deaths?

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10-10-2013, 10:01 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
Logic involves reason. Reason involves using facts not theory and speculation. Your 1 plus 1 equals 5 theories are a stretch at best.
I did use facts, you're choosing to ignore them because it doesn't fit with your argument.

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10-10-2013, 10:01 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
No. Logic dictates you can't prove a negative. But who cares, what happened is known.
Correlation does not equal causation. Nice try. That is almost as bad as saying us trading for Nick Kypreos led to us winning the cup. Keep reaching.

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10-10-2013, 10:01 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
Crosby 1 cup
Malkin 1 cup
Stamkos 0 cups
Ovechkin 0 cups
Tavares 0 cups
Kane 2 cups
Toews 2 cups
Bergeron 2nd round pick
E. Staal 1 cup
Nash 0 cups
Perry 0 cups
Karlsson 0 cups drafted 15th not high
Sedins 0 cups
Hall 0 cups
Giroux 0 cups drafted in the teens not high
Datsyuk 6th round pick
Neal 0 cups drafted #33
Zetterberg 7th round pick
I didn't even want to critique that list in this way, but the bottom line to the argument I wanted to make was that there is a crazy amount of luck involved in drafting, let alone winning the Cup. Can't miss prospects like Crosby and Malkin don't come around very often, the Penguins were VERY LUCKY to grab those guys in consecutive drafts, and even so that's landed them 1 Cup in 8 years.

The Rangers have made some mistakes in the draft, and I've been their biggest critic on the clear ones (Jessiman, and yes, McIlrath in my opinion). But, they've also had some pretty ****** luck with some top end guys (Dan Blackburn, Cherepanov). Hell, how about that giant swing and miss on Al Montoya at 6th overall. That was a bad one right? How about looking at the rest of that draft. Bad luck or bad management?

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10-10-2013, 10:02 PM
  #274
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Deaths? You've now gone so far into one direction that you've reached the point of complete nonsense.

How do you avoid deaths?
Well injuries and deaths have played a role in our draft history. I figured in your tanking plan you must have a way to avoid them for future draft choices.

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10-10-2013, 10:02 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
Crosby 1 cup
Malkin 1 cup
Stamkos 0 cups
Ovechkin 0 cups
Tavares 0 cups
Kane 2 cups
Toews 2 cups
Bergeron 2nd round pick
E. Staal 1 cup
Nash 0 cups
Perry 0 cups
Karlsson 0 cups drafted 15th not high
Sedins 0 cups
Hall 0 cups
Giroux 0 cups drafted in the teens not high
Datsyuk 6th round pick
Neal 0 cups drafted #33
Zetterberg 7th round pick
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
Because I was not the person that claimed he knew how to build a team "the right way". I know what I see which is every GM tries to build his team through the draft, FA, and trades. I do not have any special formula to win a cup. I said I did. If I had the chance I would do exactly what they all do. Some succeed at it. Some do not but they all do it.
If you are gonna be so hung up on me saying the right way means I presume I can be a GM you can't turn around and tell me your way is the right way which is what you are doing when you say you think just like all real GM's lmao I don't have a special formula either but I don't think it's a coincidence that the last few cup winners were built in similar fashion on one level or another

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