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Fire AV, Fire Sather. This is a bad hockey team.

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Old
10-11-2013, 09:32 AM
  #126
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Im a card carrying Sather hater, but if theres one place I'd currently place the blame right now, it'd be on the players.

They wanted a new coach, they wanted more freedom...well, they got it, and look what they're doing with it.

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10-11-2013, 09:37 AM
  #127
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Let's fire the coach that got the most out of this team because the players cry like babies.

AV great hire- definitely the right person to coach this squad.

Scott Arniel....yeah let's bring in the one idiot that Brassard hates in this league, when we want him to take the next level. Cuz Arniel did SO well in Columbus.

Let's bring in Ulf...cuz....you know he played here 'n stuff.

Let's trade away all are players that got us where we were.

This is a bad ORGANIZATION right now...from top to bottom.

TOTAL

SYSTEMIC

FAILURE

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10-11-2013, 09:38 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Doctor King Schultz View Post
This is what gets me. Players are supposed to work on their game over the summer and get better for the next year. I don't understand how Del Zotto still can't get a puck to the net from the blue line after years now. There are also so many other players on this team that just can't shoot the puck as well as an average player.

I'm not going to pretend that I know what its like to be in the NHL, but I just don't understand how these fundamental improvements never come.
Execution has always been a major issue with this team, and it's not something a coach can fix. The missed shots, the flubbed passes, poor shot selection, etc. I just think we lack players with hockey IQ. I've been patient with Del Zotto, but it's clear in his 5th year in the league that he's not a very smart hockey player and he may be unable to make the necessary adjustment

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10-11-2013, 09:41 AM
  #129
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No more trades. Compare the roster and locker room from 24/7 with the nightmare we have now.

Zero cohesion. Zero identity. Zero companionship.

This needs to be addressed and the only way to do so is to let the team play together without adding or subtracting anyone else. The constant roster turnover is a problem.

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10-11-2013, 09:48 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
No more trades. Compare the roster and locker room from 24/7 with the nightmare we have now.

Zero cohesion. Zero identity. Zero companionship.

This needs to be addressed and the only way to do so is to let the team play together without adding or subtracting anyone else. The constant roster turnover is a problem.
Here's the problem with your thought.

No matter what, they will still be:

To slow

To small

Not skilled enough

they could play together for years, the above is not going to change.

They are not going to get faster because they know each other.

they are all done growing

and they are all as skilled as they are going to get.

flawed team is flawed regardless of hos long they play together

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Old
10-11-2013, 09:51 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KreiMeARiver View Post
Let's fire the coach that got the most out of this team because the players cry like babies.

AV great hire- definitely the right person to coach this squad.

Scott Arniel....yeah let's bring in the one idiot that Brassard hates in this league, when we want him to take the next level. Cuz Arniel did SO well in Columbus.

Let's bring in Ulf...cuz....you know he played here 'n stuff.

Let's trade away all are players that got us where we were.

This is a bad ORGANIZATION right now...from top to bottom.

TOTAL

SYSTEMIC

FAILURE
Another example of moves being made in a vacuum.

There's an unwillingness to do the hard work. To take a step back and really look at what is here. To allow talent to develop. To build an organizational philosophy that starts with the Rangers and trickles down to Hartford. Something you build around, something you draft players, trade for players and sign players who fit that mold.

I mean, what is the organizations philosophy? If it's to grind and outwork opponents, then why is Taylor Pyatt, Derick Brassard or Benoit Pouliot on this team?

If it's to be uptempo and take the offense to the other team, why does anyone thing you can do that when there's only one legit top offensive player on the roster (who now might be a concussion concern — although I have my own theory on that).

People want to blame Dolan. Well, outside of not firing Sather by now (yes, that's not a small thing), he's the exact owner you want — not really involved and willing to spend money. He built a state-of-the-art training center, has allowed his GM to not only be active in the free agent market but also pay those failed signings 6M to play minor league hockey or pay those failed minor league signings to play for anyone but the Rangers.

For chrissake, somebody in this organization — do the hard work.

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Old
10-11-2013, 09:52 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
No more trades. Compare the roster and locker room from 24/7 with the nightmare we have now.

Zero cohesion. Zero identity. Zero companionship.

This needs to be addressed and the only way to do so is to let the team play together without adding or subtracting anyone else. The constant roster turnover is a problem.
I mean, if we can trade away some of the garbage we have, why not?

It's a piece meal, garbage team who got their SC winning coach fired because he yelled to much. WAAHHHH

I'll always say, in NYC, we need a Torts/Keenan kinda personality to manage the personalities. This city is too much of a playground.

But now we just have a lot of bad hockey players and a pansy coach with a bunch of bad assistants (save for Allaire).

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Old
10-11-2013, 09:55 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
No. They're not extraordinary players. They are, however, pieces the GM never bothered to replace.
Honest question.... what is it about them that wasn't replaced?

By my calculation, by the end of the 201x-2013 season, the current NHL players we had traded in the Nash deal and the Gaborik deal, combined, were

Artem Anisimov
Brandon Dubinski
Marian Gaborik

and we had received NHL players back of

Rick Nash
Derik Brassard
John Moore
Derek Dorsett

Seems to me that we sent out one top line forward and two 2/3 line forwards, and we received back one top line forward, one 2/3 line forward, a bottom line grinder and a defenseman.

I don't get the "we ruined our depth" argument because at worst we lost one 2nd/3rd liner type (plus actually picked up a competent defenseman additional depth there), and that spot should be filled by signings like Poliout or young guys like Miller or Kreider.

So what exactly is it about Anisimov and Dubinski are we missing?

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10-11-2013, 09:56 AM
  #134
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If nothing else, this will be entertaining to watch unfold.

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Old
10-11-2013, 10:01 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by segmentation fault View Post
Not even bad teams play this bad. This is worse than bad. This isnt just "learning a new system." This is learning how to play hockey 101.
And yet you know very well that each of these guys are in the NHL for a reason. For whatever reason they're not up to speed.

Way too early to be jumping off the bridge, a team doesn't go from being a playoff contender to complete horse**** in one offseason. They'll make the necessary adjustments

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Old
10-11-2013, 10:05 AM
  #136
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My question is this... we have a defensive corps and a goalie that should be just about the envy of the league.

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Stralman
Del Zotto-Moore

Lundqvist

or however we align them, should be a great set of defensive players.

How come we can't run an effective defensive system without collapsing our forwards down to block every shot?

Don't other teams run effective defenses with lesser defenseman and still have offensive systems that can put points on the board?

I don't get it.

Defensemen is the strength of our roster. We shouldn't need a system that helps the defensemen out to win.

We should be able to win with an offensive system because the defensemen are good enough on their own.

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10-11-2013, 10:15 AM
  #137
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Except our defensive corps are not "the envy of the league", they just looked good playing in an ultra-defensive system with lots of forward support. With the exception of McDonagh, the defense corps is, on the whole, slow, lacks physicality, has poor hockey IQ, and are poor puck-movers.

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Old
10-11-2013, 10:19 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Another example of moves being made in a vacuum.

here's an unwillingness to do the hard work. To take a step back and really look at what is here. To allow talent to develop. To build an organizational philosophy that starts with the Rangers and trickles down to Hartford. Something you build around, something you draft players, trade for players and sign players who fit that mold.

I mean, what is the organizations philosophy? If it's to grind and outwork opponents, then why is Taylor Pyatt, Derick Brassard or Benoit Pouliot on this team?

If it's to be uptempo and take the offense to the other team, why does anyone thing you can do that when there's only one legit top offensive player on the roster (who now might be a concussion concern although I have my own theory on that).

People want to blame Dolan. Well, outside of not firing Sather by now (yes, that's not a small thing), he's the exact owner you want not really involved and willing to spend money. He built a state-of-the-art training center, has allowed his GM to not only be active in the free agent market but also pay those failed signings 6M to play minor league hockey or pay those failed minor league signings to play for anyone but the Rangers.

For chrissake, somebody in this organization do the hard work.
Great post.

I was hoping Gorton would be that guy. Assuming he hasnt been poisoned by Sather's laziness.

I get the impression that Sather thinks hes still Mr. Big Shot from his success in the 80's...that he can still make decisions "from the gut." Here in 2013, hes about the only one who hasn't realized the game passed him by decades ago. Bravado is a funny thing.

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Old
10-11-2013, 10:20 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by mschmidt64 View Post
Honest question.... what is it about them that wasn't replaced?

By my calculation, by the end of the 201x-2013 season, the current NHL players we had traded in the Nash deal and the Gaborik deal, combined, were

Artem Anisimov
Brandon Dubinski
Marian Gaborik

and we had received NHL players back of

Rick Nash
Derik Brassard
John Moore
Derek Dorsett

Seems to me that we sent out one top line forward and two 2/3 line forwards, and we received back one top line forward, one 2/3 line forward, a bottom line grinder and a defenseman.

I don't get the "we ruined our depth" argument because at worst we lost one 2nd/3rd liner type (plus actually picked up a competent defenseman additional depth there), and that spot should be filled by signings like Poliout or young guys like Miller or Kreider.

So what exactly is it about Anisimov and Dubinski are we missing?
In a vacuum, I'd tend to agree. The fact that we imported perennial losers from the worst team in the league is starting to show.

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Old
10-11-2013, 10:24 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by mschmidt64 View Post
Honest question.... what is it about them that wasn't replaced?

By my calculation, by the end of the 201x-2013 season, the current NHL players we had traded in the Nash deal and the Gaborik deal, combined, were

Artem Anisimov
Brandon Dubinski
Marian Gaborik

and we had received NHL players back of

Rick Nash
Derik Brassard
John Moore
Derek Dorsett

Seems to me that we sent out one top line forward and two 2/3 line forwards, and we received back one top line forward, one 2/3 line forward, a bottom line grinder and a defenseman.

I don't get the "we ruined our depth" argument because at worst we lost one 2nd/3rd liner type (plus actually picked up a competent defenseman additional depth there), and that spot should be filled by signings like Poliout or young guys like Miller or Kreider.

So what exactly is it about Anisimov and Dubinski are we missing?
You're kind of skewing my point. My point was if the organization had the depth where they had AA and Dubi replacements in house (about that supposed organizational depth...), then they wouldn't have had to trade Gaborik.

But to address your point:

AA is a much better defensive player than Brassard and the offensive discrepancy between then is smaller than the difference in defense.

Dorsett is no where near the player that Dubinksy is. Dorsett is a fourth line player (and one that I have been terribly unimpressed and disappointed with) while Dubinsky is a middle six forward.

I always thought the idea of getting Nash was to have a team with both Nash and Gaborik.

I could watch John Moore skate all day, but he's done nothing this season and is unproven overall. That said, if you want to further play both CBJ trades, I consider Moore an upgrade over Erixon.

And, with the complete benefit of hindsight, would this team be better equipped to play AV's style if they had Nash and Gaborik?


Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 10-11-2013 at 10:43 AM.
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Old
10-11-2013, 10:45 AM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
No more trades. Compare the roster and locker room from 24/7 with the nightmare we have now.

Zero cohesion. Zero identity. Zero companionship.

This needs to be addressed and the only way to do so is to let the team play together without adding or subtracting anyone else. The constant roster turnover is a problem.
This, I agree with this. I honestly feel that this is the biggest catalyst. I just felt so close to the team a couple years ago, the year we lost in the ECF against the Devils. Last years team..meeh, not so much. This won't get fixed by adding more faces, and making the team/fans, the team way more, mesh with another new face in exchange for an old one. That team from a couple years ago had perfect chemistry, things just went their way and had a good balance.

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10-11-2013, 10:50 AM
  #142
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Nash and Gaborik play the same position. Nash played some left wing in Columbus. Tortorella moved Gaborik to left wing and kept Nash on right wing. Having both Nash and Gaborik along with the Rangers other commitments under a $64.3M cap was going to be tough. You saw what happened with Stepan and his contract. The alternative was keeping Nash and Gaborik but amnestying Richards. Gaborik's contract expires after 13-14. He will be 32 at the end of his contract. You can see him getting another big contract this summer. Maybe not for $7.5M but it won't be cheap. Were you going to re-sign him? Buyout Richards and allow Gaborik to leave as a free agent VS trading Gaborik and eventually buying out Richards who is at $6,666,667 VS $7.5M. $800,000 more. The comes into play with the $64.3M cap.

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10-11-2013, 10:51 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by KreiMeARiver View Post
I mean, if we can trade away some of the garbage we have, why not?

It's a piece meal, garbage team who got their SC winning coach fired because he yelled to much. WAAHHHH

I'll always say, in NYC, we need a Torts/Keenan kinda personality to manage the personalities. This city is too much of a playground.

But now we just have a lot of bad hockey players and a pansy coach with a bunch of bad assistants (save for Allaire).
I'm not talking about the mercs, trade or bury them. That's fine. They have to settle on a roster eventually. Hopefully one predominantly full of players with a future in New York.

I agree this is looking like a very poorly constructed team.

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10-11-2013, 11:11 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Here's the problem with your thought.

No matter what, they will still be:

To slow

To small

Not skilled enough

they could play together for years, the above is not going to change.

They are not going to get faster because they know each other.

they are all done growing

and they are all as skilled as they are going to get.

flawed team is flawed regardless of hos long they play together
I have a feeling this is going to be a very young team by mid November. The season will be lost and the kids will get to grow on the big team. Cannot watch another six months of a team with two 4th lines and not one consistent scoring line. The current roster has experience and this was supposed to lead to good defense. Remember all the "you can't play Miller and Kreider, they will be the worst defensive combo in the league". The current group will give them a good run for their money without the offensive upside.

Lindberg and Hrivik should be here by then as well. Problem is they will not be able to deal anyone if they keep playing like this.

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10-11-2013, 11:16 AM
  #145
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There's a lot more truth to this than I'd like to admit. A small part of me was disgusted when we traded away a lot of our own homegrown depth for guys like Nash, Brassard, Dorsett, etc. To be honest, I don't see any of those guys as major upgrades over the guys they replaced. It was a marginal upgrade at best.

What upsets me most is that Sather spent YEARS rebuilding this team and now most of it was traded away. Mark my words. It will take years for this team to get back to where it was.
What the people who don't get this keep missing is that 11-12 was MORE than the sum of it's parts. So saying "is this team dubi/anisimov or their equivalents away from a cup?" that's missing the point. 11-12 had a special chemistry that I would guess came from 90% of them being homegrown and brought up together. Starting with the Nash trade this team became more and more mercenary based. When's the last time a bunch of mercenaries won the cup?

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10-11-2013, 11:22 AM
  #146
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What the people who don't get this keep missing is that 11-12 was MORE than the sum of it's parts. So saying "is this team dubi/anisimov or their equivalents away from a cup?" that's missing the point. 11-12 had a special chemistry that I would guess came from 90% of them being homegrown and brought up together. Starting with the Nash trade this team became more and more mercenary based. When's the last time a bunch of mercenaries won the cup?
aka we reverted back to the pre-lockout (04) ideologies.

old habits die hard for cigar boy

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10-11-2013, 11:25 AM
  #147
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I know it's too early to blow it up, but if this team does blow it up, I hope they go the route you just posted and not half ass it.

Plus if this team is going to do a rebuild like this, Sather can not be a part of it. Like, at all.
Not looking to hijack your thread, just shocked to see the Rangers in this state. I think trading Nash may be impossible in the cap world, that contract will be a tough one to move. I think you may be able to trade Richards and maybe use a buyout on Nash?

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Old
10-11-2013, 11:38 AM
  #148
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Not looking to hijack your thread, just shocked to see the Rangers in this state. I think trading Nash may be impossible in the cap world, that contract will be a tough one to move. I think you may be able to trade Richards and maybe use a buyout on Nash?
Yeah, great ideas. Move Richards and face possible cap recapture penalties. Buyout the guy we just traded assets for before he even plays a full season.

Thanks for your input.

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10-11-2013, 11:42 AM
  #149
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Rick Nash is definitely our problem, only 45pts in 47gp as a Ranger.

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10-11-2013, 11:46 AM
  #150
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You guys seriously need to relax. Have they looked like crap?? YES!! But its 4 games. Dont go jumping off cliffs here.

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