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10-11-2013, 09:13 AM
  #326
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
There's an unwillingness to do the hard work. To take a step back and really look at what is here. To allow talent to develop. To build an organizational philosophy that starts with the Rangers and trickles down to Hartford. Something you build around, something you draft players, trade for players and sign players who fit that mold.
The galling part is that a philosophy was being developed by Torts. And an identity. And now it seems right back to what has not worked almost in all other years.

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10-11-2013, 09:18 AM
  #327
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The galling part is that a philosophy was being developed by Torts. And an identity. And now it seems right back to what has not worked almost in all other years.
And players who you may not expect to be players in a Torts mold thrived under it:

- Gaborik had his best seasons under Torts

- Nash was on pace for his highest point total in years last season

- Derick Brassard played argueable the most inspired hockey of his career under Torts.

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10-11-2013, 09:29 AM
  #328
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And here's the thing Torts used to blather on about 'the right way to play' and AV is blathering as well about 'the right way to play' and both of their 'right way to play's are completely different but very arguably Torts understood the talent's and the strengths and weaknesses of his players better than what AV is showing. Torts devised his game plan around what he knew. So far what we see from AV is something different.
What has really stuck out is that each of the losses had a different main ugly aspect. First game was about not being prepared and not willing to engage. The Sharks game had absolutely no effort and a quit that this team has not seen. The Ducks game showed an utter lack of defensive idea and zero fundamentals. Everything that was good and right about this team under Torts is gone.

I do not want to panic, but my fears of the play reminiscent of NYRCC are being played out in front of me.

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10-11-2013, 09:31 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
And players who you may not expect to be players in a Torts mold thrived under it:

- Gaborik had his best seasons under Torts

- Nash was on pace for his highest point total in years last season

- Derick Brassard played argueable the most inspired hockey of his career under Torts.
Because those that did not play the way that he wanted were shipped out. Those that remained, if they did not play the way that he wanted, were either demoted or benched. That identity permeated all through the minors. And now, there is no fear and no determination and no willingness to engage.

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10-11-2013, 09:33 AM
  #330
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Everyone wants to know this team's identity and who we are. I'll tell you who we are, we became the Columbus Blue Jackets!

Dubi and Arty are not saviors but we did not in any way, shape or form replace them with similar players. Yes, Prust is way overpaid but its not like we really spent the money saved on him wisely! Regardless of how over romanticized the 11-12 squad may be, the fact remains that an identity was built over time and established and we never even gave that group a second chance to learn from that first deep playoff run and come back hungry having come close to a finals appearance. We needed some minor tweaks not a major overhaul, sometimes a group is greater than the sum of it's parts and chemistry goes far beyond just playing out on the ice.

This group looks like they've had their heart torn out! It was evident last year and even more so this year.

It all comes down to not being able to draft and develop offensive players. When you have a whole team of grinder/2way types you have to trade some of them for what you don't have. It wasn't the idea that was wrong when it came to the Nash trade, we did need another offensive weapon, so much as we didn't have a proper plan in place to replace those that left. We shifted away from our identity and now here we are, without one and it sucks!


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10-11-2013, 09:35 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
Everyone wants to know this team's identity and who we are. I'll tell you who we are, we became the Columbus Blue Jackets!

Dubi and Arty are not saviors but we did not in any way, shape or form replace them with similar players. Yes, Prust is way overpaid but its not like we really spent the money saved on him wisely! Regardless of how over romanticized the 11-12 squad may be, the fact remains that an identity was built over time and established and we never even gave that group a second chance to learn from that first deep playoff run and come back hungry having come close to a finals appearance. We needed some minor tweaks not a major overhaul, sometimes a group is greater than the sum of it's parts and chemistry goes far beyond just playing out on the ice.

This group looks like they've had their heart torn out! It was evident last year and even more so this year.
haha we even brought in their ex, TERRIBLE head coach as an assistant. Brilliant move, there.

again, before the season started people laughed at my for saying that we would be lucky to even make the playoffs, because Columbus and Detroit were coming, and CBJ was a team on the rise...big time.

laughed at....

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10-11-2013, 09:46 AM
  #332
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haha we even brought in their ex, TERRIBLE head coach as an assistant. Brilliant move, there.

again, before the season started people laughed at my for saying that we would be lucky to even make the playoffs, because Columbus and Detroit were coming, and CBJ was a team on the rise...big time.

laughed at....
I mean, honestly, none of us really know enough to lay it all at the feet of the guys brought in from the CBJ but we did bring in 4 of their players plus a coach and we look like a bunch of losers which is what they were!

Sure, the problems go far beyond just them but I don't think it has helped any. Sometimes a losing mentality is hard to shake, Brassard looked like he was all too comfortable and used to having games like that and having to answer for it to the media and Arneil seems like a weasel!


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10-11-2013, 09:51 AM
  #333
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I read somewhere yesterday that the Rangers are constantly reminding themselves that they can't abandon the work ethic they developed under Torts. Isn't that something that should have been instilled in them by now instead of having to be reminded to work hard?

Maybe the players don't like playing for a coach that kicks them around. But perhaps that sort of external motivation is necessary if they can't find it within themselves to engage and play up to their capabilities.

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10-11-2013, 09:59 AM
  #334
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The galling part is that a philosophy was being developed by Torts. And an identity. And now it seems right back to what has not worked almost in all other years.
Tort's was the "made for New York" coach, or at least the New Yorker's I used to know. Brash, in your face, irreverent and unrepentant.

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10-11-2013, 09:59 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
I read somewhere yesterday that the Rangers are constantly reminding themselves that they can't abandon the work ethic they developed under Torts. Isn't that something that should have been instilled in them by now instead of having to be reminded to work hard?

Maybe the players don't like playing for a coach that kicks them around. But perhaps that sort of external motivation is necessary if they can't find it within themselves to engage and play up to their capabilities.
Basically, Torts was their complete motivation because these guys obviously are incapable of motivating themselves! You can see it in their eyes, they look lost and scared! If AV is really the way Vancouver fans say he is then this is going to be a recipe for disaster! The reason Torts got what he did out of this team is that he didn't leave it up to the players alone because I think he realized how mentally weak and incapable of self motivation this group is!

For a group of players who thought they didn't need him or his tactics they sure look like they would love to see his face in that room right now and not some robotic mute chewing gum!

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10-11-2013, 10:02 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
I read somewhere yesterday that the Rangers are constantly reminding themselves that they can't abandon the work ethic they developed under Torts. Isn't that something that should have been instilled in them by now instead of having to be reminded to work hard?

Maybe the players don't like playing for a coach that kicks them around. But perhaps that sort of external motivation is necessary if they can't find it within themselves to engage and play up to their capabilities.
The players were firm believers in the grass is always greener. Sick of the demands accompanied living with the figurative disciplinarian Dad in Tortorella who was extremely strict and rigid but yielded success, they wanted to live life with a fun loving uncle who was loose, didn't enforce a set curfew, would let them eat Oreos for breakfast if they wanted, and who would express his dismay not with yelling but by letting them know they've "disappointed" him.

I really think Vigneault is a pretty good coach who will figure it out here. Over time. However, he is going to have to discover a happy medium that can exist given the talent level here. Right now though the effort level and mistakes are inexcusable. Let's see how team responds to rest of trip. There are certainly alarming trends developing now but let's hope they are broken. The players asked for this. They got one coach fired and are playing like they want this one fired. Step up. Become accountable.

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10-11-2013, 10:25 AM
  #337
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Tort's was the "made for New York" coach, or at least the New Yorker's I used to know. Brash, in your face, irreverent and unrepentant.
Not sure what your point is.

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10-11-2013, 10:37 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
I read somewhere yesterday that the Rangers are constantly reminding themselves that they can't abandon the work ethic they developed under Torts. Isn't that something that should have been instilled in them by now instead of having to be reminded to work hard?

Maybe the players don't like playing for a coach that kicks them around. But perhaps that sort of external motivation is necessary if they can't find it within themselves to engage and play up to their capabilities.
The brigade looking to banish Torts continually took this for granted. They figured the fundamentals of hard work and defensive responsibility would remain while AV came in and unlocked an offensive fantasy. Thats not how it works.

...Clean slate indeed.

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10-11-2013, 10:45 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter
Everyone wants to know this team's identity and who we are. I'll tell you who we are, we became the Columbus Blue Jackets!
I was worried about that team identity last season when we kept adding the Columbus players.

Some people want to make this about AV. This is not about AV. How convenient that people forget how many seasons we started 1-3 under Torts and how many games we barely showed up last season under Torts.

The team is without its best RW and best LW. Their best center missed all of camp. Their superstar goalie is playing below average. They are giving a half hearted effort. This has to stop but its not about AV or a system. The team has got to get back to some basics and build on them. They had a solid 3rd period last night. Hopefully it will carry over to next game.

By the way if we have guys like Boyle, Pyatt, Asham, and Dorsett that are here mainly for their size and hitting then they have to hit. If they do not hit they are useless.

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10-11-2013, 11:41 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
And players who you may not expect to be players in a Torts mold thrived under it:

- Gaborik had his best seasons under Torts

- Nash was on pace for his highest point total in years last season

- Derick Brassard played argueable the most inspired hockey of his career under Torts.
Yeah, but did any of those players come from a place where talent was abundant? I agree the talent on this team has been thin for years, but its been better than where those you mentioned came from, so statistically they should have been out pacing their previous seasons.

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The brigade looking to banish Torts continually took this for granted. They figured the fundamentals of hard work and defensive responsibility would remain while AV came in and unlocked an offensive fantasy. Thats not how it works.

...Clean slate indeed.
Personally, I was never under the illusion that the defense would hold tight with a different coach, I just thought the team would be a more honest representation of its talent. Now at least people can see what this team is really made of.

Lots of people in the organization, and the fans, thinking this team was 'close' to attaining something big really needed a wake up call.

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10-11-2013, 11:57 AM
  #341
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If the season continues on as mediocre and below average, trade expendable pieces (Del Zotto?, Girardi?, Brassard?, Nash?) and pick up some picks. However, that may mean Lundqvist will test free agency and we probably still have Sather... Bad things. Sather has done some good lately, but as a poster mentioned earlier, the team cuts corners. The way this team is built is half assed. It probably will always be as long as Sather is here.

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10-11-2013, 12:46 PM
  #342
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Not to say that getting rid of Torts wasn't the right thing to do but I definitely agree with SBOB that the search for a new coach was a bunch of crap. Messier and AV got interviews and that was it. Messier shouldn't even have gotten an interview. There was no real search done at all. It's almost like when we hired Trottier because he was willing to write a book and find a publisher just to get the job. This goes right back to Sather.

These last two games remind me as well of those weeks after the Rangers purged half their team the year before the lockout. All of a sudden we have Josef Balej and Josh Green as top 6 wingers. It's bad enough to get clobbered 9-2 and show so little but then turn around and being down 6-0 after two periods the very next game.

If this continues to play out we won't have to worry much about who we'll be re-signing next year--we'll be dumping them at the trade deadline for draft picks and hopefully in that case Sather doesn't survive this time.

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10-11-2013, 01:03 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
And players who you may not expect to be players in a Torts mold thrived under it:

- Gaborik had his best seasons under Torts

- Nash was on pace for his highest point total in years last season

- Derick Brassard played argueable the most inspired hockey of his career under Torts.
I agree with everything you've written lately.

This is a team that, clearly, needs a drill sergeant to keep them honest. Sure, they kind of quit on Torts at the end, and whined about wanting to open it up offensively and how restrictive he was, but that was really just finding a thematic scapegoat to pin their complaints on in order to hide the fact that what they really didn't like about Torts was that he pushed them.

He knew how to get the best and most out of them. Not just grinders like Cally, but guys like Gaborik too. When he pushed Gaborik and when Gaborik took it and owned it, he had his best seasons. When he refused to work the way Torts demanded, he saw less ice time. This led to us, as outside observers, believing that Torts MAY have been too restrictive and gave us the idea that Torts played favorites in guys like Cally and Boyle and sometimes (in the case of a guy like Boyle) that drove us nuts.

The reality turns out that guys like Cally and Boyle were the guys who were most consistently willing and able to turn in the kind of effort Torts demanded and so they were rewarded with ample opportunities. The rest of the guys on the roster seemed to only be able to turn in the effort Torts wanted sometimes, or not at all.

Two years ago, we were very close to having 100% buy-in to Torts' system and at that point, we were at our peak. We may not have been talented enough to go ALL the way, but Torts certainly knew how to get the most out of us. We didn't go all the way and most of us, and all of the pundits, pointed to a lack of high end offensive players as the reason. We traded for Nash. We let guys go. We ultimately removed about five guys who had almost completely bought into Torts' system and replaced them with Nash and some free agents. Then we traded Rupp for Powe. Rupp might be slow and mostly useless, but he had bought in. He's playing in the NHL in Minnesota, Powe is playing in Hartford. Then we traded Gaborik and brought in even more new faces. Then we canned Torts and hired AV. Then we signed some more FAs. Barely half of he ECF team remains, and yet only 52 regular season games have passed since we were there (48 last season, 4 this season) and of those remaining guys, how many had bought in completely is debatable, but also moot, because we also jettisoned the only figure who had brought any kind of continuous guiding philosophy to the club in years. Either way, the result is that we're right back to being the mercenary Rangers with no heart and no guiding principles.

People always snap at anyone who second guesses the Nash trade. The rhetoric is "we gave up third liners for a superstar" and "you make that trade 10/10 times". I don't know if that's true. We gave up something we had worked extremely hard to develop in that deal, and that's identity. I don't care how good Rick Nash the INDIVIDUAL is. I only care how good my team is. My TEAM was better before that trade.

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10-11-2013, 01:05 PM
  #344
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Tort's was the "made for New York" coach, or at least the New Yorker's I used to know. Brash, in your face, irreverent and unrepentant.
Yeah, a jerk.

And that's ok, cause when I go to your town...I'M the jerk.

Sorry, I love Johnny T, check out his tourist bit on the you tubes.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good jerk, but not all the time

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10-11-2013, 01:13 PM
  #345
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I agree with everything you've written lately.

This is a team that, clearly, needs a drill sergeant to keep them honest. Sure, they kind of quit on Torts at the end, and whined about wanting to open it up offensively and how restrictive he was, but that was really just finding a thematic scapegoat to pin their complaints on in order to hide the fact that what they really didn't like about Torts was that he pushed them.

He knew how to get the best and most out of them. Not just grinders like Cally, but guys like Gaborik too. When he pushed Gaborik and when Gaborik took it and owned it, he had his best seasons. When he refused to work the way Torts demanded, he saw less ice time. This led to us, as outside observers, believing that Torts MAY have been too restrictive and gave us the idea that Torts played favorites in guys like Cally and Boyle and sometimes (in the case of a guy like Boyle) that drove us nuts.

The reality turns out that guys like Cally and Boyle were the guys who were most consistently willing and able to turn in the kind of effort Torts demanded and so they were rewarded with ample opportunities. The rest of the guys on the roster seemed to only be able to turn in the effort Torts wanted sometimes, or not at all.

Two years ago, we were very close to having 100% buy-in to Torts' system and at that point, we were at our peak. We may not have been talented enough to go ALL the way, but Torts certainly knew how to get the most out of us. We didn't go all the way and most of us, and all of the pundits, pointed to a lack of high end offensive players as the reason. We traded for Nash. We let guys go. We ultimately removed about five guys who had almost completely bought into Torts' system and replaced them with Nash and some free agents. Then we traded Rupp for Powe. Rupp might be slow and mostly useless, but he had bought in. He's playing in the NHL in Minnesota, Powe is playing in Hartford. Then we traded Gaborik and brought in even more new faces. Then we canned Torts and hired AV. Then we signed some more FAs. Barely half of he ECF team remains, and yet only 52 regular season games have passed since we were there (48 last season, 4 this season) and of those remaining guys, how many had bought in completely is debatable, but also moot, because we also jettisoned the only figure who had brought any kind of continuous guiding philosophy to the club in years. Either way, the result is that we're right back to being the mercenary Rangers with no heart and no guiding principles.

People always snap at anyone who second guesses the Nash trade. The rhetoric is "we gave up third liners for a superstar" and "you make that trade 10/10 times". I don't know if that's true. We gave up something we had worked extremely hard to develop in that deal, and that's identity. I don't care how good Rick Nash the INDIVIDUAL is. I only care how good my team is. My TEAM was better before that trade.
I agree until the part about the Nash trade. The Nash trade cost Dubi and AA. The rest of the identity guys that were lost were lost simply out of incompetence. Prust most of all. Yeah, his contract is high now, but the cap is going up and the guys brought in to replace him have failed almost completely. Other bottom 6 guys could have stayed too. The Nash trade cost two big identity players, but I still think that loss wouldn't have been so bad had it not happened along with the loss of almost the entire bottom 6.

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10-11-2013, 01:13 PM
  #346
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Yeah, a jerk.

And that's ok, cause when I go to your town...I'M the jerk.

Sorry, I love Johnny T, check out his tourist bit on the you tubes.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good jerk, but not all the time
That's the thing and I don't want to go down the Tortorella road again but it seems intertwined with Vigneault for the time being, but as much as I love Torts and the culture he created, he could have handled certain things better for sure. However, I liken him to Coughlin's situation. Tom after speaking to his family and the players, he changed his ways to a degree. He instituted the player leadership roles, was less ornery with the media, etc. If it went down as it appears to have (from reports and Torts interviews), Torts didn't have that luxury. The players never approached him about their issues. He certainly could have changed certain things on his own. However, would think that the coach who was less than a year removed from ECF berth and team's best season in 16 seasons would be afforded that chance from management and the players. Coughlin got that chance before winning his first Super Bowl.

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10-11-2013, 01:16 PM
  #347
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This team started 1-3 under AV this season.

This team started 1-3 under Torts multiple seasons.

As bad as things feel right now the sky is not falling just yet. We are 2 points out of the playoffs. We have not played a single home game. It might take a month for this team and goalie to hit their strides.

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10-11-2013, 01:20 PM
  #348
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I agree until the part about the Nash trade. The Nash trade cost Dubi and AA. The rest of the identity guys that were lost were lost simply out of incompetence. Prust most of all. Yeah, his contract is high now, but the cap is going up and the guys brought in to replace him have failed almost completely. Other bottom 6 guys could have stayed too. The Nash trade cost two big identity players, but I still think that loss wouldn't have been so bad had it not happened along with the loss of almost the entire bottom 6.
Think the mistake was made when Sather let Prust get to UFA. I don't recall the figures being negotiated during the season, but I don't recall them touching the 4 year/$10 million he got. Rangerboy or someone else could surely correct me if numbers were published but he could have been signed for better terms during the year. At the time, I agreed with the decision to let Prust to walk at those numbers. With the way Prust plays, he is always more susceptible to injury. His value to the club was definitely underrated and if he could do it again, I'm sure Sather would look to lock him up during the 2012 year.

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10-11-2013, 01:21 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
This team started 1-3 under AV this season.

This team started 1-3 under Torts multiple seasons.

As bad as things feel right now the sky is not falling just yet. We are 2 points out of the playoffs. We have not played a single home game. It might take a month for this team and goalie to hit their strides.
Being outscored 2-15 in 2 games is actually more of the issue than being 1-3. 1-3 I could handle if it wasn't back to back blowouts with no signs of life or improvement.

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10-11-2013, 01:23 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by NickyFotiu View Post
This team started 1-3 under AV this season.

This team started 1-3 under Torts multiple seasons.

As bad as things feel right now the sky is not falling just yet. We are 2 points out of the playoffs. We have not played a single home game. It might take a month for this team and goalie to hit their strides.
What youre saying is a lie. A flat out lie.

OT and Shootout losses get you points. 9-2 and 6-0 losses dont.

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