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Fleury for Miller

View Poll Results: Fleury or Miller?
Fleury (Devil you know) 34 33.66%
Miller (Devil you don't) 67 66.34%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-05-2013, 02:47 AM
  #76
Slabber Chops
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Originally Posted by Darth Vitale View Post
Not so much amazing as predictable. Every fan-base has a group of people who are more or less sentimental in their thinking and who don't pay that much attention to other teams' players, so naturally favor ours in polls like this. To most of the 30% MAF will always be that likable guy who won the Cup with his "diving save" in 2009, and therefore allegiance to him counts more than anything else. Admirable in the era of free agent sports but ultimately misguided. Then again some people feel better about supporting a team when the players on that team are people who they respect / like as individuals... so all depends on why you watch.

To use a football analogy some people might prefer to have a likable, decent QB on their team rather than someone who is more skilled but who they perceive to be a pompous dewshbag. Put another way, if Fleury did not have such a likable personality, I bet the vast majority of Penguin fans (even the knucklehead fans on Facebook or wherever) would rag on him relentlessly (and it would've started a couple years ago).
My pick of Fleury had nothing to do with who is the better player. There is no question in my mind that Miller is head and shoulders above Fleury in net, however there are greater considerations in play for mine (in order of significance).

1. Relative cap hit. If it was a straight swap, how would that additional $1.25 be accounted for? Who goes? Tweaking around the edges wouldn't do it.
2. Would the switch be the difference-maker? I have my doubts. Vokoun back-stopped this team up to the Finals with solid but not necessarily spectacular play.
Miller's cap hit is $6.25m. Fleury's is $5m before the team in front of him were out-thought, out-muscled, and generally out-played. Solid is fine for this team in net.
3. I think there are more effective options moving forward than Miller that fit within the cost framework of a team. I don't believe the arguable additional benefit provided by Miller outweighs the additional cost of potential cheaper alternatives that may (or may not) be available.

So, in conclusion, arbitrary factors such as Fleury's personality and his success a few years ago did not come into the equation for me.

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10-05-2013, 03:39 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Slabber Chops View Post
2. Would the switch be the difference-maker? I have my doubts. Vokoun back-stopped this team up to the Finals with solid but not necessarily spectacular play.
I hate it when people try to downplay what Vokoun did in the playoffs just because the narrative was "the Pens don't need spectacular goaltending, only someone who play average".
Vokoun was absolutely fantastic and he should get credit for that. The reason it wasn't spectacular in some people's eyes was because he is a positionally sound goaltender that rarely needs to jump around to make highlight reel worthy recovery saves. And that's a good thing.

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10-05-2013, 03:51 AM
  #78
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I hate it when people try to downplay what Vokoun did in the playoffs just because the narrative was "the Pens don't need spectacular goaltending, only someone who play average".
Vokoun was absolutely fantastic and he should get credit for that. The reason it wasn't spectacular in some people's eyes was because he is a positionally sound goaltender that rarely needs to jump around to make highlight reel worthy recovery saves. And that's a good thing.
It wasn't a downplay of his work at all. He was, and has been for some time, a very very good goaltender. The fact remains however that any number of goaltenders in the league could provide the same solid performance to a greater level of consistency than Fleury without the price tag that Miller comes with. That was my point.

In a cap-free world, you take Miller every day of the week. In a cap world, it's not necessarily so simple.

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10-05-2013, 05:03 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Slabber Chops View Post
It wasn't a downplay of his work at all. He was, and has been for some time, a very very good goaltender. The fact remains however that any number of goaltenders in the league could provide the same solid performance to a greater level of consistency than Fleury without the price tag that Miller comes with. That was my point.

In a cap-free world, you take Miller every day of the week. In a cap world, it's not necessarily so simple.
This is a fair point, but if the question is Fleury vs Miller (taking into account their cap hits), I don't think it's a very hard decision. Miller has been much more consistent over his career in the regular season / POs and hasn't been prone to the kind of meltdowns we've seen so far with Fleury. I don't care how much he teases us with his sporadic stretches of great play. I'll never ever trust that guy in an important game.

So yes, I'd pay the extra million or so for the clearly better goalie who comes without the historically insane peaks and valleys. Of course I'd have dumped Fleury this offseason, went with Vokoun, and looked to acquire a goalie for the future either via trade or through the draft.

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10-05-2013, 10:32 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
This is a fair point, but if the question is Fleury vs Miller (taking into account their cap hits), I don't think it's a very hard decision. Miller has been much more consistent over his career in the regular season / POs and hasn't been prone to the kind of meltdowns we've seen so far with Fleury. I don't care how much he teases us with his sporadic stretches of great play. I'll never ever trust that guy in an important game.

So yes, I'd pay the extra million or so for the clearly better goalie who comes without the historically insane peaks and valleys. Of course I'd have dumped Fleury this offseason, went with Vokoun, and looked to acquire a goalie for the future either via trade or through the draft.
So Jeff Zatkoff would be your current NHL starter with Eric Hartzell backing him up?

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10-05-2013, 02:39 PM
  #81
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So Jeff Zatkoff would be your current NHL starter with Eric Hartzell backing him up?
Well nobody could have predicted a fluke, long term injury to Vokoun. As it would have stood we would have had to go out and acquire a stop gap of sorts, a capable fringe starter who could provide us something resembling average goaltending. It's not hard to find a goalie who fits that description who couldn't be had for relatively cheap. Hell, isn't Bryz playing in the ECHL right now? Maybe you take a chance on him and see if he can turn his career around here.

Point being that not having a name #1 goalie is far from the end of the world. There is so much parity at this position that you can find capable goaltending all over the place. Maybe you have to send a pick and a prospect to get Reimer from Toronto. Who knows? What matters more is that you no longer have a historically bad playoff goalie on your team.

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10-05-2013, 02:39 PM
  #82
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Just for kicks....what if we traded for Anderson in the off season? cheaper then Fleury and better. Would have 1 year left at 3.1M. Still a good goalie.

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10-05-2013, 03:38 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Just for kicks....what if we traded for Anderson in the off season? cheaper then Fleury and better. Would have 1 year left at 3.1M. Still a good goalie.
and we'd have to give up a hell of a lot to get him.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 10-05-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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10-05-2013, 03:49 PM
  #84
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The Senators will get a king's ransom for Anderson. The only way they don't is if he has a miserable season, in which case he probably wouldn't be that interesting of a trade candidate anyway.

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10-05-2013, 04:33 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
This is a fair point, but if the question is Fleury vs Miller (taking into account their cap hits), I don't think it's a very hard decision. Miller has been much more consistent over his career in the regular season / POs and hasn't been prone to the kind of meltdowns we've seen so far with Fleury. I don't care how much he teases us with his sporadic stretches of great play. I'll never ever trust that guy in an important game.

So yes, I'd pay the extra million or so for the clearly better goalie who comes without the historically insane peaks and valleys. Of course I'd have dumped Fleury this offseason, went with Vokoun, and looked to acquire a goalie for the future either via trade or through the draft.
No argument there as I am not exactly overflowing with confidence with Fleury either. I always look at the first few minutes and if he's solid, square, and not over-commiting then he's fine. The problem is that I have to look every single game.

On the second note, Fleury has very little value at present. If they had of dumped him per se then we would have had a tandem of Vokoun and Z. Ignoring the blood clot, which is an out of the blue sort of thing, that tandem brings with it greater risk than Fleury with Vokoun for no additional gain as that cap savings cannot be committed to players for a term longer than this season realistically. Keeping Fleury was a good call, even if it was as a split-start goalie or overpaid back-up.

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10-06-2013, 02:42 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Slabber Chops View Post
No argument there as I am not exactly overflowing with confidence with Fleury either. I always look at the first few minutes and if he's solid, square, and not over-commiting then he's fine. The problem is that I have to look every single game.

On the second note, Fleury has very little value at present. If they had of dumped him per se then we would have had a tandem of Vokoun and Z. Ignoring the blood clot, which is an out of the blue sort of thing, that tandem brings with it greater risk than Fleury with Vokoun for no additional gain as that cap savings cannot be committed to players for a term longer than this season realistically. Keeping Fleury was a good call, even if it was as a split-start goalie or overpaid back-up.
The problem with keeping Fleury around if you're Shero is that your coach still wants to start him. I'd rather cut ties with him and let Vokoun take over than keep around a goalie that will force the better goalie to ride the pine. It probably sounds like strange logic to some, but it's sort of like not re-signing Adams or Glass. Don't give Bylsma rope to hang himself if you can help it.

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10-06-2013, 03:25 AM
  #87
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I've only read the first page, but ppl wouldn't want Miller because of the 1.25M difference in caphit? really? Miller is a massive upgrade over MAF and he doesn't crap the bed in the playoffs.

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10-06-2013, 04:13 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Human View Post
I've only read the first page, but ppl wouldn't want Miller because of the 1.25M difference in caphit? really? Miller is a massive upgrade over MAF and he doesn't crap the bed in the playoffs.
Option 1... we trade for Miller. BUT what do you think Buffalo is going to want besides MAF, IF they even want him at all? It would be extortion trying to trade for him me thinks.

Or 2... we drop MAF and we try to sign Miller when his contract is up. But do you really think we can match other offers with our cap situation on the free market? I really doubt Miller is going to take THAT much of a discount to sign here. There are a lot of contenders out there that need a goalie with a lot more cap room. While MAF will probably signed for a lot less considering his play. That 1.25 gap is going to grow by a lot.

I would like Miller instead of MAF, but I just don't see it happening. I guess we are just going to have to live with the two best forwards in the world on our team. Damn this world.

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10-06-2013, 08:34 AM
  #89
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If it is basically a Fleury for Miller switch with only very minor adds, I'd be all for Miller. Higher cap hit and all. If it involves more 1sts and top prospects, I'd ride the year out with Fleury and hopefully Vokoun at some point and look at Miller and whoever else in FA.

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10-06-2013, 12:42 PM
  #90
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I'm not sure if you guys heard but Fleury is cool again.

Someone explain to me how Miller is "head and shoulders" above Fleury?

because he has had consistent save % with almost no results to show?

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10-06-2013, 07:04 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by spizzle420 View Post
I'm not sure if you guys heard but Fleury is cool again.

Someone explain to me how Miller is "head and shoulders" above Fleury?

because he has had consistent save % with almost no results to show?
Miller has put up better and more consistent performances with a far weaker team around him. I don't really care about Fleury's 'accomplishments' in the postseason when he's had what, three seperate playoff meltdowns since? His playoff numbers have been historically bad and there's no overlooking that.

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10-07-2013, 10:32 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Human View Post
I've only read the first page, but ppl wouldn't want Miller because of the 1.25M difference in caphit? really? Miller is a massive upgrade over MAF and he doesn't crap the bed in the playoffs.
Tough to crap the bed in the playoffs on the golf course.

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10-08-2013, 01:37 AM
  #93
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Miller. I'll take a chance on something different as opposed to the same old song and dance with MAF. In a vacuum, just Miller for Fleury... alright, I'd throw in Glass to sweeten the deal.
I came here to post but this guy already said what I was going to say.

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10-08-2013, 10:32 AM
  #94
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Does anyone else think we should just wait and sign lundquist and maybe trade letang and fleury (and maybe a 1st or a highly rated prospect) for a true number one defense prospect like carlson? letang isn't getting any younger and i think we all know what we have already in fleury (not much). lunquist is a clear improvement over both fleury and miller and our d will be solidified for years to come with the prospect (who also won't be taking up over 7 million in cap space like letang)

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10-08-2013, 10:43 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by PensBrony 6 9 View Post
Does anyone else think we should just wait and sign lundquist and maybe trade letang and fleury (and maybe a 1st or a highly rated prospect) for a true number one defense prospect like carlson? letang isn't getting any younger and i think we all know what we have already in fleury (not much). lunquist is a clear improvement over both fleury and miller and our d will be solidified for years to come with the prospect (who also won't be taking up over 7 million in cap space like letang)
Carlson is a prospect who may be a number one defenceman, someday. Letang is a number one defenceman. Letang is only 26. That's the same age as Sid. There is absolutely nothing there, even if Carlson was looking better.

Lundqvist will be paid money we can't afford by someone, if he even decides to leave NYR (seems unlikely anyways).

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10-08-2013, 11:02 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by PensBrony 6 9 View Post
Does anyone else think we should just wait and sign lundquist and maybe trade letang and fleury (and maybe a 1st or a highly rated prospect) for a true number one defense prospect like carlson? letang isn't getting any younger and i think we all know what we have already in fleury (not much). lunquist is a clear improvement over both fleury and miller and our d will be solidified for years to come with the prospect (who also won't be taking up over 7 million in cap space like letang)
Yes on Lundvist, no on Letang. I think depending on the cap and what he wants we could make Lundvist work. Lundvist . IDK why you would want to lose Letang on the chance that a prospect could be a cheaper version of him in x amount of years.

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10-11-2013, 04:46 PM
  #97
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I'd love Miller, but we have nothing to realistically offer Buffalo. They're stacked with great D prospects which is our one trade strength. We can't afford to give up anything of value up front.

Besides, Miller will likely test the market this upcoming offseason anyway. If Fleury craps the bed again this year we still have both compliance buyouts.

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10-11-2013, 04:48 PM
  #98
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Tough to crap the bed in the playoffs on the golf course.
Or the bench, amirite?

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10-11-2013, 05:12 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Slabber Chops View Post
My pick of Fleury had nothing to do with who is the better player. There is no question in my mind that Miller is head and shoulders above Fleury in net, however...

So, in conclusion, arbitrary factors such as Fleury's personality and his success a few years ago did not come into the equation for me.
A commendable approach, good sir. However my point about why most fans who choose someone like Fleury over Miller, actually make that choice, stands.


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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Just for kicks....what if we traded for Anderson in the off season? cheaper then Fleury and better. Would have 1 year left at 3.1M. Still a good goalie.
I'd rather trade for Lehner:

1) Will be entering his prime in a couple years (younger) and is likely to be cheaper even with a new "bridge contract".

2) Anderson is a bit overrated IMO -- Ottawa's team D has a lot to do with his success. Lehner will likely become the kind of goalie teams can lean on when their D struggles.

3) Will cost less than trading for Anderson and even if it's the same cost, I'd still rather have the younger guy with the big upside and already some proof that he's worthy of it.

That said the odds a young team like Ottawa will trade their young stud-G-in-waiting when he's an RFA, are purrty darn slim. Truth be told there's not much chance that Anderson won't get an extension, and not much chance either will be traded anytime soon. That's a great tandem to have. Anderson can keep mentoring Lehner, Lehner can keep getting solid back-up duty learning the ropes, neither will cost that much to re-sign relative to other big goalies, and Ottawa has the space. Meanwhile they'll get "big goalie benefits" as long as they keep playing this style of hockey.


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10-11-2013, 07:14 PM
  #100
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I'd rather trade for Lehner:

1) Will be entering his prime in a couple years (younger) and is likely to be cheaper even with a new "bridge contract".

2) Anderson is a bit overrated IMO -- Ottawa's team D has a lot to do with his success. Lehner will likely become the kind of goalie teams can lean on when their D struggles.

3) Will cost less than trading for Anderson and even if it's the same cost, I'd still rather have the younger guy with the big upside and already some proof that he's worthy of it.

That said the odds a young team like Ottawa will trade their young stud-G-in-waiting when he's an RFA, are purrty darn slim. Truth be told there's not much chance that Anderson won't get an extension, and not much chance either will be traded anytime soon. That's a great tandem to have. Anderson can keep mentoring Lehner, Lehner can keep getting solid back-up duty learning the ropes, neither will cost that much to re-sign relative to other big goalies, and Ottawa has the space. Meanwhile they'll get "big goalie benefits" as long as they keep playing this style of hockey.
This is the sort of guy that I equally support and have more interest in to be fair. The issue is how do you get a player like that without selling the organisation's gold, silver, and rusty old tin. They're just not available at an acceptable price. That one remaining year on Fleury's contract after this season is a bit of a "pain" (euphemism) to be fair.

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