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Old
10-11-2013, 05:11 PM
  #51
PricePkPatch
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People should try to get some perspective about Therrien's comments after the Calgary game.

subban will never ever have anything handed to him. Therrien did good to point out where he failed. Subban will not rationalize this mistake, and will build on it.

Was it absolutely necessary for Subban to learn that mistake? No. But it was the good coaching move. You should expect nothing less than perfection from Subby

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Old
10-11-2013, 05:12 PM
  #52
Vsevolod Bobrov
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Originally Posted by Devourers View Post
Those two guys are cup winners (Keith has 2) and both won Olympic gold. Outdated? I see the last two cups they both won. They're winners.

Not saying PK has a cup, but he's also younger.

Those guys aren't regular season warriors, they're playoff warriors. That's the difference. Where is Weber's cup?
Both of them being on disgustingly stacked teams doesn't prevent their play from regressing. Olympic gold ? ya outaded (lol).

No, Weber hasn't won a cup playing for the Nashville Predators smartboy.

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10-11-2013, 05:12 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by couris View Post
Galchenyuk>Subban. Galchenyuk is the type of player we have been looking for 20 years. It will take us another 20 years to find another galchenyuk since we refuse to tank with this team.
Haven't we been looking for Subban for 20 years too (Chelios) ? I see no point in comparing the two. They're both franchise players. And both are atleast 2 years removed from nearing their primes.

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10-11-2013, 05:14 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Vsevolod Bobrov View Post
Both of them being on disgustingly stacked teams doesn't prevent their play from regressing. Olympic gold ? ya outaded (lol).
They were both huge for their teams in those playoffs, it's undeniable. And like it or not, they won olympic gold. That is outdated, but how is the last 2 cups outdated?

But I'm sure you'll try and discredit their performances now in those playoffs, am I right? Come on man, I think it's obvious those guys have proven a lot in their careers. Don't live in denial.

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10-11-2013, 05:15 PM
  #55
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Agree with everything
Agree with everything you agreed with.

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10-11-2013, 05:20 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Devourers View Post
They were both huge for their teams in those playoffs, it's undeniable. And like it or not, they won olympic gold. That is outdated, but how is the last 2 cups outdated?

But I'm sure you'll try and discredit their performances now in those playoffs, am I right? Come on man, I think it's obvious those guys have proven a lot in their careers. Don't live in denial.
They're both still very good but their offensive stats have diminished a lot and neither has had a Norris nomination in a while. Keith is the best dman on a dynasty team at this point and Doughty in particular has never hit the level of dominance of his Norris season again. I don't think either is even a top5 dman in the league right now.

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10-11-2013, 05:29 PM
  #57
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Pretty sure there was a Weber vs Subban poll a few months ago that had to be closed due to being too lopsided. Needless to say, Weber won.

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10-11-2013, 05:42 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
Haven't we been looking for Subban for 20 years too (Chelios) ? I see no point in comparing the two. They're both franchise players. And both are atleast 2 years removed from nearing their primes.
Markov in his prime was pretty good.

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10-11-2013, 05:44 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by couris View Post
Markov in his prime was pretty good.
He's still pretty good...his smarts and vision are still top notch

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10-11-2013, 05:50 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by couris View Post
Chara is more than points. We all saw last playoffs that he was the best Dman by far, a little bit like Pronger.
I've got to agree with you! Chara is just dominant in all 3 zones. Right now i'd say he's the best d-man in the league and Karlsson/Subban are tied for 2nd.

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10-11-2013, 05:54 PM
  #61
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19h, le comportement de P.K Subban peut-il changer? #QuizHK360


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10-11-2013, 05:57 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SB164 View Post
Hockey 360 RDS ‏@hockey360 2m
19h, le comportement de P.K Subban peut-il changer? #QuizHK360

It never fails...is there an elite player in the league who gets less respect than Subban?

Don't mean to play the victim card here...but it's ridiculous

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10-11-2013, 06:00 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by couris View Post
Galchenyuk>Subban. Galchenyuk is the type of player we have been looking for 20 years. It will take us another 20 years to find another galchenyuk since we refuse to tank with this team.
No, Gally is not better than PK.
Maybe he will eventually, and that's only a good thing, but he isn't at the moment. I think that's just you being a lot more of a Forward guy than a Dman one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LPHabsFan View Post
PK is an extremely good defenseman but he still has a fair bit to go before he's called the best defenseman in the league. One of the biggest positive changes to his game that I've seen is that he is more chosey with his shots. Rather than just try and cork one from the blue he will take a second and think what the best shot is. Case in point the Eller goal against Calgary. Last year he would have taken the slap shot and it would have been clocked/stopped. He thought for a second and took an intentionally wide shot and it wound up in the net.

In terms of his defensive abilities he is up there in my opinion and will continue to get better.

But there are still things that he needs to improve on. First is his temper. He still seems to be very easy to piss off and that leads to him taking stupid penalties that put the team in a bad spot. Calgary was a good example. He was better last night against Edmonton but it's not the first time even this year we've seen that from PK. That will continue to evolve as he gets older.

The next two biggest things is that he tends to hang on to the puck way too long and that's combined with doing too much on the rush. In the D zone there will still be the odd time when he tries to do a PK rush but it backfires and ends up losing the puck. Not all the time but still happens and it doesn't need to because he has puck distribution options. Similarly he will try and go end to end which just ends up leading to......usually nothing.

I'm also just waiting for the day when his butt hit attempts ends up getting him suspended for a hit to the end based on how he does the hit.

Sounds like I'm ragging on him but I'm not. He in my opinion is one of the top dmen in the game right but there are player who can produce similar offensive numbers but who aren't as much of a liability compared to Subban.

Names that pop are Keith, Doughty, Chara, Weber, Suter, Yandle and to some degree Karlsson but he has more defensive deficiencies.
I think him needing to fix his temper is actually what I'm talking about as to people reaching for stuff to justify not giving him credit.
PK has temper issues, he isn't liked in locker room, blablabla. It's all BS.
Take Jona Toews. He completely lost it in the POs last year, you see him cream and be furious in the penalty box to the point where Seabrook has to come in to tell him to cool off. He also goes on record as to saying sometimes he needs his teammates to separate him and Kane because of arguments. But people view him as one of the best captain in this league, arguably the best two way guy in the game.
You have Chara that will come charge at you because you barely touched his teammate (that happened to dive) and throw punches.
Oh but ya, PK has to watch his temper...Sure, that totally makes sense.

If you feel like you're ragging on, it's probably because you are

He's not hanging on to the puck for too long. That's the type of Dman he is. He will hang on to it, and he will try rushes. Sometimes, they will fail. Not every pass Lidstrom attempted worked, and yea, sometimes it ended up in his own net.

As I said, seems people need PK to be perfect which is ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripper View Post
Subban is a beast, but what are you basing your opinion on?
I'm basing this on how he excels at every facet of the game.
He can lay you out, he can clear the front of the net, he wins most of his board battles, his ability to avoid big checks, the way he rolls off the checks of opponents, his speed, his skating, his mobility, his defensive and offensive awareness, the way he plays his opponents, his diving timing, his shooting, his passing, his puck control, his physicality, his intensity, the way he seems to just toy with players letting them chase him and then easily lose them with a burst of speed.
But despite all of this, what really made me see the extra level in him, is the way he completely took control of the game versus CGY. It was all him. He put the whole team on his back, and just carried it all the way to the end. Every time he was on the ice something happened, if he had the puck, CGY wasn't getting it away from him, they just couldn't.

No other Dman in the NHL does so much as well as PK. None.

So all this combined, that's what I'm basing my opinion on. It's not a broad meaningless statement like ''I'm basing it on him being better defensively and offensively'', that means nothing and whoever says things like that really is just proving to me they haven't thought and observed things at all.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
If you want to see what kind of team you get with tanking, you saw it last night.

The Edmonton Oilers.

Regarding the thread topic, at the end of the day, before Subban is proclaimed the best DMan in the world, he will have to show that he is capable of leading a team to a Stanley Cup.

Its a high bar but in the world of sports, the best really arent the best until they can say they are champions.

I am hopefully optimistic that he will one day wear that crown.
I think that's ridiculous. Ray Bourque was one of the best Dman in the history of NHL and still couldn't lead his team to the cup. He needed to be traded to an all-star team with so many future HoFs to win it.

It's very unfair to say PK isn't the best until he wins a cup. Not one player wins a cup, a team wins a Cup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
People should try to get some perspective about Therrien's comments after the Calgary game.

subban will never ever have anything handed to him. Therrien did good to point out where he failed. Subban will not rationalize this mistake, and will build on it.

Was it absolutely necessary for Subban to learn that mistake? No. But it was the good coaching move. You should expect nothing less than perfection from Subby
You just proved my point.

Perfection is expected from PK.
Perfection expected from any athlete is absolutely unrealistic and ridiculous.

Therrien didn't have to point where he failed, PK already knew it hence him saying it.
It would have been refreshing to see the coach back up his best player for a change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsevolod Bobrov View Post
They're both still very good but their offensive stats have diminished a lot and neither has had a Norris nomination in a while. Keith is the best dman on a dynasty team at this point and Doughty in particular has never hit the level of dominance of his Norris season again. I don't think either is even a top5 dman in the league right now.
Keith and Doughty are very good overall Dman.
If you're gonna look at the awards to base your opinions on then you really shouldn't be commenting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsevolod Bobrov View Post
Pretty sure there was a Weber vs Subban poll a few months ago that had to be closed due to being too lopsided. Needless to say, Weber won.
You say Keith and Doughty aren't what they were, and then say Weber is the best in the NHL.
Either you really don't watch western guys play all that often, or you just don't know what you're talking about. You decide.

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Old
10-11-2013, 06:02 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy View Post
I've got to agree with you! Chara is just dominant in all 3 zones. Right now i'd say he's the best d-man in the league and Karlsson/Subban are tied for 2nd.
Chara has started declining and he's not as well rounded as PK. He's getting old at 36.

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10-11-2013, 06:15 PM
  #65
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KrissE...I agree completely with everything you wrote about Subban.

The fact people keep talking about his attitude problems, is more a reflection of their own perceptions about him, then reality.

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10-11-2013, 06:16 PM
  #66
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There is not a Dman in hockey that I would take over Subban. Not one.

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10-11-2013, 06:21 PM
  #67
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I have zero problem with anyone saying PK is the best blueliner in the league. He's a complete and versatile blueliner. And he takes over games.

Chara and Weber are great down low in their own end and provide offense. I think a big reason why people cite Chara is because he has a unique skill set. He brings a dimension that no other player in the league can bring. Good luck standing in front of the Bruins net with him there. Physically dominating in a way no other player can offer. Weber is kind of Chara light in that respect. Rough, tough, clear the net, protect the goalie... awesome.

Neither of those guys can skate like PK though.

If PK isn't the best blueliner in the game now, he could very well be in the very short future. He's exceeded all expectations and is only getting better. I think he'll win multiple Norris trophies in his career if he can stay healthy. He has HOF talent.

And really sorry to bring this up but I can't even think about how good we'd be right now with Ryan McDonnaugh in the lineup along with him. He's another great up and coming blueliner. Just really steady.

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10-11-2013, 06:21 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post

You just proved my point.

Perfection is expected from PK.
Perfection expected from any athlete is absolutely unrealistic and ridiculous.

Therrien didn't have to point where he failed, PK already knew it hence him saying it.
It would have been refreshing to see the coach back up his best player for a change.
Subban, because of who he is and the prejudging of many, will never have it easy. People are always going to be overly and unfairly critic of him, and his behaviour.

He isn't judged by the same benchmark as most athletes. It's completely unfair, and he will never escape it. The only way he can arise and become greater than they can ever dare to criticize. He has to become a shining player in the NHL, so radiant everybody is left with no choice but choke on their own words.

Thing is, Subban can pull it off. You can easily point out to the greats of today; Crosby and McKinnon, and claim they had it handed over to them by everyone. Nobody can ever claim Subban would have had it easy.

But Subban can pull it off. I know he can, and I know he will. He will be remembered as One of the Greats. If management pulls off a good team around him, we'll win enough cups to have his jersey retired and a bronze statue of him alongside the other Greats.

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Old
10-11-2013, 06:27 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Subban, because of who he is and the prejudging of many, will never have it easy. People are always going to be overly and unfairly critic of him, and his behaviour.

He isn't judged by the same benchmark as most athletes. It's completely unfair, and he will never escape it. The only way he can arise and become greater than they can ever dare to criticize. He has to become a shining player in the NHL, so radiant everybody is left with no choice but choke on their own words.

Thing is, Subban can pull it off. You can easily point out to the greats of today; Crosby and McKinnon, and claim they had it handed over to them by everyone. Nobody can ever claim Subban would have had it easy.

But Subban can pull it off. I know he can, and I know he will. He will be remembered as One of the Greats. If management pulls off a good team around him, we'll win enough cups to have his jersey retired and a bronze statue of him alongside the other Greats.
I think you might be right. I see him going down as one of the greats.

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10-11-2013, 06:30 PM
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I think that's ridiculous. Ray Bourque was one of the best Dman in the history of NHL and still couldn't lead his team to the cup. He needed to be traded to an all-star team with so many future HoFs to win it.

It's very unfair to say PK isn't the best until he wins a cup. Not one player wins a cup, a team wins a Cup.
It is not ridiculous.

Say the name Marcel Dionne. What comes to mind? Fifth all time in the NHL for points. Substitute Dionne's name for Subban and what would you have? People back then talking about how Dionne was the best forward in the NHL.

But what is Dionne remembered for? Fifth all time points scorer? No. He is remembered for being at the top of the list of talented NHL players who did not win a Cup.

Same for Mats Sundin. One of the best players in his era........no Cup.......so what.

It matters more than you are willing to admit.

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10-11-2013, 06:32 PM
  #71
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Hockey 360 RDS ‏@hockey360 2m
19h, le comportement de P.K Subban peut-il changer? #QuizHK360

I'm done with that bullcrap.



Nice thread Kriss E

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10-11-2013, 06:33 PM
  #72
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It is not ridiculous.

Say the name Marcel Dionne. What comes to mind? Fifth all time in the NHL for points. Substitute Dionne's name for Subban and what would you have? People back then talking about how Dionne was the best forward in the NHL.

But what is Dionne remembered for? Fifth all time points scorer? No. He is remembered for being at the top of the list of talented NHL players who did not win a Cup.

Same for Mats Sundin. One of the best players in his era........no Cup.......so what.

It matters more than you are willing to admit.
No single player is capable or responsible of winning a Cup all to himself

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10-11-2013, 06:35 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLurch View Post
There is not a Dman in hockey that I would take over Subban. Not one.
The only player I would consider trading him for would be Drew Doughty, but even then they're both so similar it'd be a wash.

Doughty has been a little underwhelming as of late. You expect him to dominate on a more consistent basis (like he does during the playoffs). With PK, the way he's improved year after year is truly remarkable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I have zero problem with anyone saying PK is the best blueliner in the league. He's a complete and versatile blueliner. And he takes over games.

Chara and Weber are great down low in their own end and provide offense. I think a big reason why people cite Chara is because he has a unique skill set. He brings a dimension that no other player in the league can bring. Good luck standing in front of the Bruins net with him there. Physically dominating in a way no other player can offer. Weber is kind of Chara light in that respect. Rough, tough, clear the net, protect the goalie... awesome.

Neither of those guys can skate like PK though.

If PK isn't the best blueliner in the game now, he could very well be in the very short future. He's exceeded all expectations and is only getting better. I think he'll win multiple Norris trophies in his career if he can stay healthy. He has HOF talent.
Hell, even Plekanec gives Chara trouble with his skating at times, you can just see Chara struggling to keep up with Tomas. On the other hand, if Pleks played for anybody else, Subban would have the wheels to shut him down.

Just ask David Krejci, PK's made him his ***** on several occasions. When the Bruins won the Cup, Krejci led the NHL in playoffs points. I believe he had 1 point vs Montreal during the first round. 1 single point vs Subban in a seven game series (PK was just as dominant, if not better, than Chara in that series)



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10-11-2013, 06:37 PM
  #74
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No single player is capable or responsible of winning a Cup all to himself
Never said that.

The greatest ones are the ones who provide impact. As much as it sucks to say this, Zdeno Chara provided tremendous impact for the Bruins when they won the Cup. He still does. He is not the offensive threat that he once was but he still can turn a game around with his defensive play.

Subban is not there yet. He is a fantastic DMan and one of the best at what he does........scoring goals on the PP. I, too, am thankful that he is a Hab. Is he the best in the League regarding the impact that he has on this team? Right now.....probably not.

He will get there though....

Edit.....Karlsson is not there yet either.

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10-11-2013, 06:41 PM
  #75
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Never said that.

The greatest ones are the ones who provide impact. As much as it sucks to say this, Zdeno Chara provided tremendous impact for the Bruins when they won the Cup. He still does. He is not the offensive threat that he once was but he still can turn a game around with his defensive play.

Subban is not there yet. He is a fantastic DMan and one of the best at what he does........scoring goals on the PP. I, too, am thankful that he is a Hab. Is he the best in the League regarding the impact that he has on this team? Right now.....probably not.

He will get there though....

Edit.....Karlsson is not there yet either.
Wait. You actually believe that "what Subban does" is... scoring goals on the PP?

I repeat.

That's what you believe is the extent of Subban's contribution to this team?

Get the **** out of this thread and never come back.

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