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Faceoffs remain a weak link

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Old
10-06-2013, 05:41 PM
  #26
Marotte Marauder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
we won the cup last year with the same guys taking the draws... Is it really a problem?

Much like getting outhit, this is a problem that won't lose us games or will make or break our season.
Don't start with they bring in Perreault. That's a smart move but even if every player we have is 70+ % on faceoffs there is ~30% of room to improve.
Winning or losing a Cup is a very fine line, ask the Flyers or Bruins.

When you have more talent it may overcome other deficiencies, it also may not. That said, the fundamentals of the game can never be overemphasized. Finish your check, don't take stupid penalties, win the draw or tie up your man, stay on the right side of a scrum.

Will the Hawks talent overcome their current deficiencies? We'll see, but think they have somehow become a less important aspect of the game is just wrong.

An example on an individual basis would be Kyle Beach. When he was the biggest and baddest overage Junior, he ran roughshod despite his fundamental shortcomings. Now those deficiencies are the stumbling block. It is not how one builds a hockey player or a hockey team.

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10-06-2013, 05:52 PM
  #27
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I don't understand how you can talk about fundamental deficiencies and lay it on this current iteration when one of your favorite players last year was the poster child for just that.

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10-06-2013, 06:13 PM
  #28
Marotte Marauder
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Originally Posted by Kurtosis View Post
I don't understand how you can talk about fundamental deficiencies and lay it on this current iteration when one of your favorite players last year was the poster child for just that.
VS? His overwhelming speed offset his fundamental deficiencies and I do agree he had them.

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10-07-2013, 12:18 PM
  #29
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I agree about Stalberg... and elite speed can make up for a lot of deficiencies. With that element missing, Hawks are a bit duller to watch when it comes to the bottom 6now.... and (since Pirri is in RFD) we're still waiting for Q's new scapegoat.

On a different note:

IMO, Some folks here take these discussions the wrong way, and way too personally. There IS always room for improvement, and at all levels of the game, and throughout the Blackhawk organization on and off the ice - and that’s what some of us prefer to discuss on a day-to-day basis. It certainly doesn’t mean we aren’t avid Hawk fans. In fact, quite the opposite.

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10-07-2013, 12:45 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Winning or losing a Cup is a very fine line, ask the Flyers or Bruins.When you have more talent it may overcome other deficiencies, it also may not. That said, the fundamentals of the game can never be overemphasized. Finish your check, don't take stupid penalties, win the draw or tie up your man, stay on the right side of a scrum.

Will the Hawks talent overcome their current deficiencies? We'll see, but think they have somehow become a less important aspect of the game is just wrong.

An example on an individual basis would be Kyle Beach. When he was the biggest and baddest overage Junior, he ran roughshod despite his fundamental shortcomings. Now those deficiencies are the stumbling block. It is not how one builds a hockey player or a hockey team.

No question of that….. a fine line indeed. How about the scare Wings gave us last season? We were almost gone before the PO’s got into gear.
That’s why I get a chuckle when someone says losing face-offs will never cost us a Cup. Nothing could be further from the truth. Odds are it won’t happen but on any given night, even the smallest detail or bad bounce can be the difference between winning and losing - and details missed have a habit of being magnified in the PO’s.

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10-09-2013, 11:42 PM
  #31
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I was kind of half listening at work today (Had a real busy night at work). After the PK goal against... Troy Murray was going off about how the Hawks have to get this faceoff problem fixed. I believe it was a Kruger faceoff lost that led directly to the goal against tonight.

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10-10-2013, 12:02 AM
  #32
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Kruger has been really poor on face offs this year. Losing them clean. There is no other part of his game that can really make up for that. He has been poor al around actually. But at one point Toews was at 38% after two periods. So it is a team problem.

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10-10-2013, 01:44 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
What Perreault can do is teach guys like Kruger how not to have draws get obliterated with clean losses.
Um... might want to step up the pace on this part of the lesson there Yanick.

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10-10-2013, 02:21 AM
  #34
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I didn't really read this thread... but my input is that it takes a lot of time to perfect a skill like taking faceoffs. Yes it's important but no, it's not as important as some folks make it seem. If you lose a face-off and your team can't handle that, then it's more of a systems problem than anything.

Of course you want to win it, but it's seriously not the end of the world if you don't. 50% is a great average for a team.

Anywho, having Perreault isn't going to fix this team in the first week or two... it's going to take some time before we notice anything. Just hang on.

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10-10-2013, 08:46 AM
  #35
Marotte Marauder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski View Post
I didn't really read this thread... but my input is that it takes a lot of time to perfect a skill like taking faceoffs. Yes it's important but no, it's not as important as some folks make it seem. If you lose a face-off and your team can't handle that, then it's more of a systems problem than anything.

Of course you want to win it, but it's seriously not the end of the world if you don't. 50% is a great average for a team.

Anywho, having Perreault isn't going to fix this team in the first week or two... it's going to take some time before we notice anything. Just hang on.
Some of those folks are in the hockey biz, just sayin'.

http://sharks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=505490

http://www.stack.com/video/185895304...e-of-FaceOffs/

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/winni...-just-reflexes

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10-10-2013, 10:10 AM
  #36
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Kruger is terrible at draws..Q needs to get him out of there and get Zeus or Toews on those draws.

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10-10-2013, 10:20 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Kruger is terrible at draws..Q needs to get him out of there and get Zeus or Toews on those draws.
We have been waiting a couple years for him to get better and it isn't happening. In the first three games he has regressed and the number of clean losses is substantial. I don't know if there is any help for the kid.

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10-10-2013, 11:44 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski View Post
I didn't really read this thread... but my input is that it takes a lot of time to perfect a skill like taking faceoffs. Yes it's important but no, it's not as important as some folks make it seem. If you lose a face-off and your team can't handle that, then it's more of a systems problem than anything.

Of course you want to win it, but it's seriously not the end of the world if you don't. 50% is a great average for a team.

Anywho, having Perreault isn't going to fix this team in the first week or two... it's going to take some time before we notice anything. Just hang on.
Well, Troy Murray very much disagrees with you. He was pretty upset last night. And when point blank PP goals are scored directly off losing a draw - I don't know how you can say that is a system.

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10-10-2013, 12:31 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
Well, Troy Murray very much disagrees with you. He was pretty upset last night. And when point blank PP goals are scored directly off losing a draw - I don't know how you can say that is a system.
I agree.

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Old
10-10-2013, 01:08 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski View Post
I didn't really read this thread... but my input is that it takes a lot of time to perfect a skill like taking faceoffs. Yes it's important but no, it's not as important as some folks make it seem. If you lose a face-off and your team can't handle that, then it's more of a systems problem than anything.

Of course you want to win it, but it's seriously not the end of the world if you don't. 50% is a great average for a team.

Anywho, having Perreault isn't going to fix this team in the first week or two... it's going to take some time before we notice anything. Just hang on.
I completely disagree with that statement. Taking and winning a faceoff is a very instinctive thing, and I don't think that any amount of teaching will improve the hand-eye coordination needed to win a draw. A center might improve a bit with better positioning and a few techniques, but that still doesn't help the reflexes. If it were possible to teach a center how to win, we'd have a team full of 70% winners by now.

To all those saying faceoffs aren't important to win, you:
1. are ignorant of the real importance of a faceoff win.
2. were a center who sucked at winning faceoffs. Or,...
3. have a hidden agenda supporting one of the centers who lose more than they win faceoffs.

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10-10-2013, 03:17 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by pvr View Post
I completely disagree with that statement. Taking and winning a faceoff is a very instinctive thing, and I don't think that any amount of teaching will improve the hand-eye coordination needed to win a draw. A center might improve a bit with better positioning and a few techniques, but that still doesn't help the reflexes. If it were possible to teach a center how to win, we'd have a team full of 70% winners by now.

To all those saying faceoffs aren't important to win, you:
1. are ignorant of the real importance of a faceoff win.
2. were a center who sucked at winning faceoffs. Or,...
3. have a hidden agenda supporting one of the centers who lose more than they win faceoffs.
I think that is 99% of it.

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10-11-2013, 02:09 PM
  #42
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Just to remind everyone..our main problem in faceoffs is the dot to our goalie's right in the d-zone where Left shooting guys are at a disadvantage to right shooting faceoff guys...so neither Danault or K. Hayes are future solutions to that problem...McNeill,Hartman and furthest away John Hayden are RS guys so maybe they will beable to solve the problem...interesting that If Stan had signed Ludvig Rensfeldt and developed him a yr in Rockford last season. .he might have been the best solution. ..also to the 2C solution..he currently is 54.74% in the dot after 7GP and has 1g and 4 a for his team---Malmo im the Allsvenskan..I still think Stan gave up is 4 on him too quickly...he is of course a RS...so I guess a solve for this yr comes down to only McNeill but Q will not carry him just for a fee monites in right dzone dot faceoffs...Rockford fpllowers.ell us how he is faring on faceoffs and wheyher Dent even uses him on the PK and right dzone dot draws...if they do not,somethong is wrong either in McNeill's ability or in our development thonking..of je camnot hrlp then we.need to male a Trade. ..move Leddy because if he were that "special" a differemce -maker...then we should be getting big multi-point nights from him..since we are not..he ain't that special..and so we have replacements for a #5 or #6 D.. BUT WE LACK a good RS C who can win draws in the right situations amd do other things like PKs.or add difference making creative offense.

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10-11-2013, 06:21 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
Just to remind everyone..our main problem in faceoffs is the dot to our goalie's right in the d-zone where Left shooting guys are at a disadvantage to right shooting faceoff guys...so neither Danault or K. Hayes are future solutions to that problem...McNeill,Hartman and furthest away John Hayden are RS guys so maybe they will beable to solve the problem...interesting that If Stan had signed Ludvig Rensfeldt and developed him a yr in Rockford last season. .he might have been the best solution. ..also to the 2C solution..he currently is 54.74% in the dot after 7GP and has 1g and 4 a for his team---Malmo im the Allsvenskan..I still think Stan gave up is 4 on him too quickly...he is of course a RS...so I guess a solve for this yr comes down to only McNeill but Q will not carry him just for a fee monites in right dzone dot faceoffs...Rockford fpllowers.ell us how he is faring on faceoffs and wheyher Dent even uses him on the PK and right dzone dot draws...if they do not,somethong is wrong either in McNeill's ability or in our development thonking..of je camnot hrlp then we.need to male a Trade. ..move Leddy because if he were that "special" a differemce -maker...then we should be getting big multi-point nights from him..since we are not..he ain't that special..and so we have replacements for a #5 or #6 D.. BUT WE LACK a good RS C who can win draws in the right situations amd do other things like PKs.or add difference making creative offense.
Good post.

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10-12-2013, 07:29 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Try to shelve the sarcasm but faceoffs remain an issue, and a big one ... and Q is well aware as is the team:

From Bleacher report:
" On Thursday, Quenneville turned to one of the NHL’s greatest faceoff players, Yanic Perreault, to instruct the Blackhawks. Perreault, who is a Blackhawks development coach, spent about 20 minutes working with the team’s forwards on faceoffs.
The Blackhawks ranked 11th in the league last regular season with a 50.8 percent faceoff winning percentage, but that was largely due to Jonathan Toews. He won 267 faceoffs and lost 187 for a 58.8 percentage.

Among the other Blackhawks who took at least 100 faceoffs, no one had higher than a 42.5 winning percentage. Andrew Shaw, who was primarily the third-line center, was 99-134 for a 42.5 percentage; Marcus Kruger, the fourth-line center, was 96-142 for a 40.3 percentage; and Dave Bolland, the second-line center, was 95-143 for a 39.9 percentage."
FO % will come with time, regardless, the Hawks are playing good hockey...

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10-12-2013, 09:00 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
Just to remind everyone..our main problem in faceoffs is the dot to our goalie's right in the d-zone where Left shooting guys are at a disadvantage to right shooting faceoff guys...so neither Danault or K. Hayes are future solutions to that problem...McNeill,Hartman and furthest away John Hayden are RS guys so maybe they will beable to solve the problem...interesting that If Stan had signed Ludvig Rensfeldt and developed him a yr in Rockford last season. .he might have been the best solution. ..also to the 2C solution..he currently is 54.74% in the dot after 7GP and has 1g and 4 a for his team---Malmo im the Allsvenskan..I still think Stan gave up is 4 on him too quickly...he is of course a RS...so I guess a solve for this yr comes down to only McNeill but Q will not carry him just for a fee monites in right dzone dot faceoffs...Rockford fpllowers.ell us how he is faring on faceoffs and wheyher Dent even uses him on the PK and right dzone dot draws...if they do not,somethong is wrong either in McNeill's ability or in our development thonking..of je camnot hrlp then we.need to male a Trade. ..move Leddy because if he were that "special" a differemce -maker...then we should be getting big multi-point nights from him..since we are not..he ain't that special..and so we have replacements for a #5 or #6 D.. BUT WE LACK a good RS C who can win draws in the right situations amd do other things like PKs.or add difference making creative offense.
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Good post.
So let's set up to "win" a draw on the forehand? It's not that tough to "win" it to the wall as long everyone knows the game plan.

Better to have a 50/50 battle on the wall than lose draws out to the point cleanly.

Those adjustments alone would give us a chance to win a battle and clear the puck.

Problem is Olive Oyl is too weak to tie up his guy and kick the puck etc.

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Old
10-12-2013, 12:03 PM
  #46
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funny that I never read the name of Andrew Shaw here


Funny that we are in the Top15, that we won 2 Cups in 4 years. If this is all our problems as is not playing Pirri so far or losing Stanton, you know you have no problems

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10-12-2013, 01:04 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
funny that I never read the name of Andrew Shaw here


Funny that we are in the Top15, that we won 2 Cups in 4 years. If this is all our problems as is not playing Pirri so far or losing Stanton, you know you have no problems
Shaw may not be great at face-offs either, but rarely do you see him lose a draw cleanly ... and he is not a PK'er hence the draws he takes are generally not as important. Clean losses in the d zone almost always leads to a scoring chance and Kruger is giving up way too many of them. Q's response, move him to 2nd line center or 3rd line wing. Ridiculous. Send him to RFD where he belongs.

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10-12-2013, 01:49 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Shaw may not be great at face-offs either, but rarely do you see him lose a draw cleanly ... and he is not a PK'er hence the draws he takes are generally not as important. Clean losses in the d zone almost always leads to a scoring chance and Kruger is giving up way too many of them. Q's response, move him to 2nd line center or 3rd line wing. Ridiculous. Send him to RFD where he belongs.
Bubba's not going to like that.

Perhaps the PK needs Shaw. He's reasonably good on defense, is appropriately aggressive, and is a righty.

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10-13-2013, 01:52 AM
  #49
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I disagree with some of those posts. Faceoffs are very much a learned skill. Hand/eye does not account for how you position and take a draw. Hand/eye does not account for positioning of players who are along side of you when you lose a draw.

Faceoffs are important, don't get me wrong. But when a goal is scored off of a set play on the faceoff... you have your goalie, your defensemen, your wingers, and yourself to blame. A goal is not a singularity, if you know what I mean.

To me, losing faceoffs consistently is troublesome, but if you know you don't have strong f/o centermen, you account for that. And THAT, is a systems problem.

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10-13-2013, 01:45 PM
  #50
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Krüger to RFD

right, thats what our team needs

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