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Old
10-12-2013, 11:46 AM
  #26
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2 quick things we should be straight on:

1. The Rangers did not 'quit' on Tortorella last season. What evidence does anyone have suggesting this? If it was a comparison between last season and the season before, how exactly do you explain what has happened last season vs. the beginning of this season? Did the team already quit on a coach Alain Vigneault that they just signed up for?

2. Can we get over this "vocal leaders are good, quiet leaders are bad" idea that everyone is accepting as gospel. There is no evidence that this is true either; in fact most of the evidence suggest the opposite.

Messier wasn't a good leader because he was vocal; he was a good leader because he lead by example which is what all good leaders, vocal or quiet, do. He was most effective when his actions carried the team. He was ineffective in his second stint as a NYR when he was no longer physically able to carry the team.

Say what you will about Drury being a bad captain or not - when he realized he could no longer be a asset to the Rangers he retired gracefully - if Messier did this his second go around as a Ranger it would have saved us years.

I don't understand how people can say Callahan is a bad leader because he is a quiet leader. First he is probably more vocal than most previous Rangers captains or captains around the league; and to my original point this shouldn't matter either way.

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10-12-2013, 11:57 AM
  #27
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I don't know, "We will win tonight" seems pretty vocal to me! Yes he lead by example by being a bull on the ice but he was also very vocal in the room. It's not just about the message either, it's about who is delivering it and that's what I was alluding to when I brought up Mess.

The only player with cup experience is Richards and I don't think he has the intensity or warrior mindset needed to preach a more fiery approach!

I'm not saying you have to be vocal as a captain but if you're not I think you need someone in that room who is and who the players respect because he has been there.

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10-12-2013, 12:07 PM
  #28
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I always looked at Dubi and Cally as a package deal and duo. Years ago my girlfriend (now wife) and I got our jerseys Cally and Dubi and that's what we wear to games ever since. Cally to me was the good cop, honest, hard working blue collar, lead by example part of the duo and Dubi was the bad cop, hot head, live wire who would open his mouth and say the things Cally's play quietly spoke of. I thought they were perfect compliments and should have been our C and A for the foreseeable future. One a playmaker, one a finisher. They PK'd as a pair. Both physical. Look at those near identical highlight reel goals against Pittsburgh they combined for. They were heart and soul. Thunder and lightning. Shake and bake. I loved Cally having Dubi as the vocal wing man (anyone watch Key and Peele? Think of Cally as Obama and Dubi as the angry translator).

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10-12-2013, 12:10 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by PK Pilot 76 View Post
I always looked at Dubi and Cally as a package deal and duo. Years ago my girlfriend (now wife) and I got our jerseys Cally and Dubi and that's what we where to games ever since. Cally to me was the good cop, honest, hard working blue collar, lead by example part of the duo and Dubi was the bad cop, hot head, live wire who would open his mouth and say the things Cally's play quietly spoke of. I thought they were perfect compliments and should have been our C and A for the foreseeable future. One a playmaker, one a finisher. They PK'd as a pair. Both physical. Look at those near identical highlight reel goals against Pittsburgh they combined for. They were heart and soul. Thunder and lightning. Shake and bake. I loved Cally having Dubi as the vocal wing man (anyone watch Key and Peele? Think of Cally as Obama and Dubi as the angry translator).
A million times this.

I've been hopeful Miller could come up and be the Dubi replacement (lets be honest, all of us know Miller's a bit of an ass-hole), but by the time he's ready, Cally probably won't have the motor he does now.

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10-12-2013, 12:12 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by PK Pilot 76 View Post
I always looked at Dubi and Cally as a package deal and duo. Years ago my girlfriend (now wife) and I got our jerseys Cally and Dubi and that's what we wear to games ever since. Cally to me was the good cop, honest, hard working blue collar, lead by example part of the duo and Dubi was the bad cop, hot head, live wire who would open his mouth and say the things Cally's play quietly spoke of. I thought they were perfect compliments and should have been our C and A for the foreseeable future. One a playmaker, one a finisher. They PK'd as a pair. Both physical. Look at those near identical highlight reel goals against Pittsburgh they combined for. They were heart and soul. Thunder and lightning. Shake and bake. I loved Cally having Dubi as the vocal wing man (anyone watch Key and Peele? Think of Cally as Obama and Dubi as the angry translator).
I agree, it's too bad Dubi didn't do enough to keep himself here for the money he was earning. I think it affected Callahan in some way and the rest of the team in a way that stats don't show. We haven't filled that void that was left by him in the attitude/intensity department and he was always yapping on the ice!

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10-12-2013, 12:20 PM
  #31
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This team just needs to be more engaged mentally and physically. I would say stop being reactionary and be more proactive but most of the time we fail to even react!

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10-12-2013, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
I agree, it's too bad Dubi didn't do enough to keep himself here for the money he was earning. I think it affected Callahan in some way and the rest of the team in a way that stats don't show. We haven't filled that void that was left by him in the attitude/intensity department and he was always yapping on the ice!
Anyone remember when we blew out the Caps and Ovie nailed Girardi? Dubi fought him. Instantly. That sums it up for me. He would have been on Stuart for the Nash hit in a blink.

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10-12-2013, 02:06 PM
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During the best Messier Ranger years, it almost seemed as though the team played for Messier, Not the coach. Players would have to answer to him. He was also more vocal both in the media and on the bench. I didn't see the fire or anger from Callahan during our drubbing and that disappointed me.

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10-12-2013, 02:15 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
During the best Messier Ranger years, it almost seemed as though the team played for Messier, Not the coach. Players would have to answer to him. He was also more vocal both in the media and on the bench. I didn't see the fire or anger from Callahan during our drubbing and that disappointed me.
Not everyone can be Messier. If he is the measuring stick then everyone is gonna come up short. Brian Leetch was a better A than a C, that didn't diminish who he was in any way, some guys just aren't right for the job.

That being said, I do think Callahan deserves to be the captain of this team, I love the guy. We just need to get him some help in the leadership department because a lame duck Brad Richards on his way to a buyout isn't cutting it in my opinion.

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10-12-2013, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
I don't know, "We will win tonight" seems pretty vocal to me! Yes he lead by example by being a bull on the ice but he was also very vocal in the room. It's not just about the message either, it's about who is delivering it and that's what I was alluding to when I brought up Mess.

The only player with cup experience is Richards and I don't think he has the intensity or warrior mindset needed to preach a more fiery approach!

I'm not saying you have to be vocal as a captain but if you're not I think you need someone in that room who is and who the players respect because he has been there.
When Messier said we'll win tonight it was merely a footnote; what grave it credence was the fact that he delivered a hat trick that night to be the Devils in game 6. If he didn't people would have at best forgotten what he said or maybe at worst held it against him as proof he's not a good leader?

Messier also said we'd make the playoffs when he re-signed with NY, and we were the laughing stock of the league that year. Was he showing leadership when he demanded to be on the first PP and first PK unit when he clearly was incapable of those roles. Does that show leadership or denial?

Most of the anecdotes you here from players about Messier being a great leader come from what he did (i.e. buy a suit for a new player who couldn't afford it) not what he said. You'll never hear a player say "Messier said XYZ to us and that gave us the juice to win!"

People lead by example. Telling people what to do doesn't make you a leader, it makes you a dictator.

Again, I'd like to see examples of vocal leaders around the NHL who are better captains because of it.

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10-12-2013, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GothamRanger View Post
When Messier said we'll win tonight it was merely a footnote; what grave it credence was the fact that he delivered a hat trick that night to be the Devils in game 6. If he didn't people would have at best forgotten what he said or maybe at worst held it against him as proof he's not a good leader?

Messier also said we'd make the playoffs when he re-signed with NY, and we were the laughing stock of the league that year. Was he showing leadership when he demanded to be on the first PP and first PK unit when he clearly was incapable of those roles. Does that show leadership or denial?

Most of the anecdotes you here from players about Messier being a great leader come from what he did (i.e. buy a suit for a new player who couldn't afford it) not what he said. You'll never hear a player say "Messier said XYZ to us and that gave us the juice to win!"

People lead by example. Telling people what to do doesn't make you a leader, it makes you a dictator.

Again, I'd like to see examples of vocal leaders around the NHL who are better captains because of it.
I didn't even advocate Callahan not being captain. Furthermore, I didn't say the type of player I was describing need to be the captain either. I was just using Mess as an example of someone who was a warrior, who could speak up but also lead by example. Someone who had the track record of winning in the post season and who players respect enough to follow.

I think Richards fails in this department and I think having someone like that could help take some pressure off of Callahan and help spearhead a more intense approach and higher level of accountability.

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10-12-2013, 02:40 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by PK Pilot 76 View Post
Anyone remember when we blew out the Caps and Ovie nailed Girardi? Dubi fought him. Instantly. That sums it up for me. He would have been on Stuart for the Nash hit in a blink.
Yep, I actually think trading Dubi was a mistake...as bad as he was before getting traded he was able to carry the puck down the ice AND was one of the best of using his body to protect the puck. Pretty sure he learned that from playing with jagr as a rookie

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10-12-2013, 02:42 PM
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Yep, I actually think trading Dubi was a mistake...as bad as he was before getting traded he was able to carry the puck down the ice AND was one of the best of using his body to protect the puck. Pretty sure he learned that from playing with jagr as a rookie
Yes, but what good is puck possession if you can't do anything with it?

I'd rather have him back for his passion at this point, but realistically I'd rather he just stay in Columbus because Nash will have 10x the impact on this team (positively) before his career here is over.

As always, I will eat crow if I am wrong.

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10-12-2013, 02:49 PM
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Last years team didn't quit on Tortorella. They turned on him during breakup. If we want to talk about Callys effect there, if anything that to me would point more to his leadership succeeding rather than failing.

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10-12-2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PK Pilot 76 View Post
I always looked at Dubi and Cally as a package deal and duo. Years ago my girlfriend (now wife) and I got our jerseys Cally and Dubi and that's what we wear to games ever since. Cally to me was the good cop, honest, hard working blue collar, lead by example part of the duo and Dubi was the bad cop, hot head, live wire who would open his mouth and say the things Cally's play quietly spoke of. I thought they were perfect compliments and should have been our C and A for the foreseeable future. One a playmaker, one a finisher. They PK'd as a pair. Both physical. Look at those near identical highlight reel goals against Pittsburgh they combined for. They were heart and soul. Thunder and lightning. Shake and bake. I loved Cally having Dubi as the vocal wing man (anyone watch Key and Peele? Think of Cally as Obama and Dubi as the angry translator).
Couldn't have said it better, I loved watching those 2 together. That's when they played their best imo.

Like Callagraves said, I hope Miller could be our Dubi replacement, they play a similar game and have a similar demeanor.

As for Cally as captain, I think he's a great captain. Nothing wrong with leading by example and he's someone all players should follow. But I think he could use some help and he's not getting it from Richards and Staal since they're not vocal or fiery either.

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10-12-2013, 02:52 PM
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Couldn't have said it better, I loved watching those 2 together. That's when they played their best imo.

Like Callagraves said, I hope Miller could be our Dubi replacement, they play a similar game and have a similar demeanor.

As for Cally as captain, I think he's a great captain. Nothing wrong with leading by example and he's someone all players should follow. But I think he could use some help and he's not getting it from Richards and Staal since they're not vocal or fiery either.
Nick Lidstrom wasn't fiery or outspoken. Was he a bad captain all those years?

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10-12-2013, 03:00 PM
  #42
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Last years team didn't quit on Tortorella. They turned on him during breakup. If we want to talk about Callys effect there, if anything that to me would point more to his leadership succeeding rather than failing.
Agreed.

Kind of tough to quit on Tortorella, because if you do, youre simply not going to play.

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10-12-2013, 03:01 PM
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Nick Lidstrom wasn't fiery or outspoken. Was he a bad captain all those years?
Of course not and neither is Callahan I just think he could use another strong personality or two in the room who have actually won before. If you are going to lead by example alone it helps a lot if part of that example includes going deep in the playoffs and possibly even winning a cup. Lidstrom had those qualities, Callahan does not have that kind of clout at this very moment although that in no way means he can't obtain it in the future.

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10-12-2013, 03:07 PM
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Cally tries to LEAD by example. Problem is 95% of the team wants nothing to do with the way he plays. Therein lies a part of the problem with the 2013-14 NYR.
This is it exactly. When the team had Cally, Dubi, Prust, and co, it was a whole team of players playing that way, with Cally leading the way. It's much harder for a player to be in a room full of guys like that and refuse to play that way.

Now, it's pretty much just Callahan. When it's just one guy, he's the oddball on the team who loves to jump in front of pucks. It's harder for Cally to lead when the team got rid of most of his lieutenants/followers.

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10-12-2013, 03:07 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
Of course not and neither is Callahan I just think he could use another strong personality or two in the room who have actually won before. If you are going to lead by example alone it helps a lot if part of that example includes going deep in the playoffs and possibly even winning a cup. Lidstrom had those qualities, Callahan does not have that kind of clout at this very moment although that in no way means he can't obtain it in the future.
I agree but I'll also point out that Detroit had more long time veterans with one team and a more established system and style that spanned over a decade that all of those players were bought into. Rangers are a youngish team trying to find their identity (almost had it) and its not as easy to just be a good example here and expect everyone to follow the leader.

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10-12-2013, 03:13 PM
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I agree but I'll also point out that Detroit had more long time veterans with one team and a more established system and style that spanned over a decade that all of those players were bought into. Rangers are a youngish team trying to find their identity (almost had it) and its not as easy to just be a good example here and expect everyone to follow the leader.
This is true and part of it is why I started the thread asking if maybe this group could benefit from some more veteran leadership.

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10-12-2013, 03:50 PM
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1. The Rangers did not 'quit' on Tortorella last season. What evidence does anyone have suggesting this? If it was a comparison between last season and the season before, how exactly do you explain what has happened last season vs. the beginning of this season? Did the team already quit on a coach Alain Vigneault that they just signed up for?

I think we would need to qualify that there might be no such thing as "the Rangers." It's possible that some of the Rangers quit on Tortorella last season. Boyle? Richards? Kreider? We DO know that some of the Rangers complained to management and got Torts fired.

This, to me, might explain what is going on with AV this season. While some of the Rangers were clearly fed up with Torts, other members of the team were clearly (to use a long-standing avatar meme) Torts kind of guys. It would not surprise me in the least if guys like Callahan, Stepan, Girardi and McDonagh were as shocked by Torts' dismissal (and how it happened) as Torts was.

Fast forward one off-season. Most of the team is back, but now, half the team knows that the other half of the team got their coach--a coach who was the best thing to ever happen to some of their careers--fired. That's not exactly conducive to a cohesive locker room. I hope I'm just reading too much into it, but if that IS going on, it's not going to be fixed without moving some of the players (which could be difficult because the assumed "leaders" of both sides are key players for this team, with Nash and Lundqvist on one side, and Cally, Step and the defense on the other).

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10-12-2013, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
I think Richards fails in this department and I think having someone like that could help take some pressure off of Callahan and help spearhead a more intense approach and higher level of accountability.
Understood; we do hear from the media that Richards has been more outspoken and taking a leadership role this season compare to priors. We don't have any visibility into that, but I can see him stepping up 1.) because of the mini-crises we are in 2.) he may feel partly responsible with Torts gone.

To your point I think his experience lends itself to this type of situation so it seems like a good thing.

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10-12-2013, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I think we would need to qualify that there might be no such thing as "the Rangers." It's possible that some of the Rangers quit on Tortorella last season. Boyle? Richards? Kreider? We DO know that some of the Rangers complained to management and got Torts fired.

This, to me, might explain what is going on with AV this season. While some of the Rangers were clearly fed up with Torts, other members of the team were clearly (to use a long-standing avatar meme) Torts kind of guys. It would not surprise me in the least if guys like Callahan, Stepan, Girardi and McDonagh were as shocked by Torts' dismissal (and how it happened) as Torts was.

Fast forward one off-season. Most of the team is back, but now, half the team knows that the other half of the team got their coach--a coach who was the best thing to ever happen to some of their careers--fired. That's not exactly conducive to a cohesive locker room. I hope I'm just reading too much into it, but if that IS going on, it's not going to be fixed without moving some of the players (which could be difficult because the assumed "leaders" of both sides are key players for this team, with Nash and Lundqvist on one side, and Cally, Step and the defense on the other).
This is a good point.

But I don't think if even one half of the team was wanting him gone that Sather would pull the trigger. I can't see a team that has historically only been getting tighter and tighter in camaraderie not getting a consensus before going to management and saying they want the coach out.

Most of the players were progressing under Torts. I don't see, at least on the playing surface how the team just "gave up" on the coach. Perhaps he couldn't squeeze as much as he did the season before, but it's understandable given the circumstances of a shortened season etc. In the end we finished 4 seeds worse than the year before, won a seven game series and lost to a Boston team that deserved to be in the Stanley Cup final. That is nothing to be ashamed of which is why I thought they would give Torts another season to work it out.

The players that played poorly under Torts last season (I'm thinking Richards, Del Zotto namely) always got the benefit of the doubt from him, at least when he addressed the media. The other players he didn't like I am assuming he got the GM to deal away or send to Hartford well before he got fired.

The only people I can see Sather totally listening to would be the guys like Staal, Callahan, and Lundqvist. The rumor was that Lundqvist did say he wanted Torts out, as much as I don't like to believe it I can see him trying to voice his opinion on what he thought was best for the skaters (Torts doesn't really have jurisdiction on what Hank does) and perhaps his impatience made him voice his opinion that in the end was taken too seriously by Sather.

Maybe the players who did voice concerns did just that, but didn't say explicitly they wanted a new coach; but Sather maybe took it that way? Maybe they were all shocked when Tortorella was fired.

Somehow I think this all has to do with Lundqvist being a UFA at the end of this season. Sather's first priority should have been a contract extension for Henrik before the season even started, before he resigned any other FAs.

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10-12-2013, 07:23 PM
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