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what do you guys think of Hall on the 2nd line now?

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Old
12-03-2006, 07:34 PM
  #1
Inferno
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what do you guys think of Hall on the 2nd line now?

Actually its not been too bad, i was surprised. Prucha needs to get some PP time, put shanahan at a point and play prucha down low or something.

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12-03-2006, 07:48 PM
  #2
True Blue Bleed Blue
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Clearly not too bad...let's role with it for a bit. We still need to start playing some 60 minute games and protecting leads and not having to score in the last 10 minutes

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12-03-2006, 08:10 PM
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No problem with him there...

but don't see what he's done positively and the highlight still is the fact (or opinion) that this team doesn't have a #2 centerman.

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12-03-2006, 08:29 PM
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Hall on the 2nd line doesnt necessarily bother me, it just leads me to believe the rangers are trying to see if we can get someone to score alongside shanny bc it seems that prucha and cullen cannot, i think prucha is the guy they want to see more point production from, at least cullen can kill penalties, prucha is here to score and if he isnt doing that he is a nice piece of trade bait

im not advocating we deal him, im just afraid that sather may use him in a deal to shake this team up, however this could easily be avoided

prucha-straka-jagr
hall-nylander-shanahan
cullen-betts-hollweg
hossa-ward-orr

id like to see us try that, to see if we could possibly get prucha going because i dont expect to him to start netting any points on the 3rd line

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12-03-2006, 08:36 PM
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Shanahan would be a good influence on Hall, and Prucha isn't going to find his game as long as he's on the third line.

I'm not opposed to using Straka at Center either, because he seems to drop into that position in the Ranger's zone anyway - he's clearly more responsible defensively than Nylander

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12-03-2006, 09:03 PM
  #6
Inferno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janerixon View Post
Hall on the 2nd line doesnt necessarily bother me, it just leads me to believe the rangers are trying to see if we can get someone to score alongside shanny bc it seems that prucha and cullen cannot, i think prucha is the guy they want to see more point production from, at least cullen can kill penalties, prucha is here to score and if he isnt doing that he is a nice piece of trade bait

im not advocating we deal him, im just afraid that sather may use him in a deal to shake this team up, however this could easily be avoided

prucha-straka-jagr
hall-nylander-shanahan
cullen-betts-hollweg
hossa-ward-orr

id like to see us try that, to see if we could possibly get prucha going because i dont expect to him to start netting any points on the 3rd line

actually, i dont mind that setup one bit...

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12-03-2006, 10:36 PM
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The biggest problem on the 2nd line is not the wingers, it's the center. It's also the biggest problem on the 3rd line and the 4th line.

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12-04-2006, 06:37 AM
  #8
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They really should give Immonen or even just throw Dubinsky out there for a few games...

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12-04-2006, 02:57 PM
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eh.. its ok.. i mean i rather have hall on that line instead of placing prucha w/ two guys who never pass.

i've liked what i've seen offensively from Prucha-Betts-Hossa.. they just gotta put it in now. but itll come

the real prob with the 2nd line is Cullen, who is NOT a playmaking center. Actually i dont think he should even be playing center. But if you drop the guy to the third line (as it has been said earlier) he will be the most overpaid 3rd line center in the league. I see a trade in the future for a 2nd line center

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12-04-2006, 03:22 PM
  #10
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You like what you've seen...

from the Betts line? I assume you're referring to the Buffalo game because against the Isles they were on the ice for two goals against, zero goals for and a total of three shots, zero from Prucha.

And whatever happened to this team having a checking line? I know Renney never fully committed to it, but it seemed as though it played pretty well for those two or so games.

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12-04-2006, 03:28 PM
  #11
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I like what I've seen, but in order to stick on the second line it has to actually produce something with a fair amount of consistency.

The problem with a lot of these 3rd/4th liners isn't that they are horrible and can't do anything, but rather that what they do doesn't usually result in a lot of offense.

For all the checks, the energy, the other aspects, it doesn't result in a lot of points. It's kind of the Dominic Moore syndrom. You notice them because they are hustling, but what does it actually produce? Seems like it is often times a lot of flash but not a heck of a lot of substance when all is said and done.

Unfortunatly that is what usually seperares the usually good third liners from the average ones or the ones who end up bouncing down to the 4th line where less offense is expected.

It's also what seperates the guys who stay as bottom 6 forwards, from those who can jump up and become second line players.

Time will ultimately tell what Hall does, but I strongly agree that the main thing is centers.

This team has very solid third and fourth liners....but they are playing one line too high each. In doing so they go from very good at their proper roles to below average at their newer roles.

I'd like to see Cullen and Hall playing together, but not on the second line and not with Shanahan. I feel you're really wasting Shanahan's all-star talents just to get production out of guys who probably shouldn't be on that line.

Doesn't seem very efficient to me.

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12-04-2006, 03:40 PM
  #12
Larry Melnyk
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With either Hall or Prucha, both of who have been lazy on the backcheck and with defensiv responsibilities, the 2nd line is still sub-standard...Alot of that has to do with an out of his depth Cullen being the center, but both Hall and Prucha have offered little at ES...Hell, look at the +/- for the teams and the +/- number of the 4 2nd line candidates--a combined -25 or -30....I don't know what the answe is with the player we have now....But Better effort in all facets of the game by Prucha, Hall and CUllen would help....

The relative failure of the 2nd line on most nights makes the almost total lack of production from the 3rd and 4th lines even more of a factor...Personally, except for the first two games I haven't been thrilled by the checking and defense of the 3rd line which is a problem given that it can't score to save it's life..And the you have a total, utter waste of a 4th line that gets little ice time but, even when it does, has no identity and serves little purpose...This won't change, IMO, until Orr is moved off and replaced by a skater and hockey player.....

If this situation keeps up, Renney will have to look at some more juggling and then, most likely, additions from either Hartford or from outside (my bet)...I kmow he can't score, but the return of Ortmeyer would be a godsend that would at least bring an idnetity and purpose to the 4th line...

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Old
12-04-2006, 04:30 PM
  #13
Evgeny Oliker
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...

Ye, right now pretty much we are a 1 line team with Shanahan scoring on the PP when he gets to play with Jagr.

I actually like Cullen, just don't like the lines. As some of you have already said, Straka is a much better center than Cullen at this point, so we need to move Straka to Center. However, I don't see Hall as a 2nd liner, he is a good player, but too slow for the 2nd line. Also, the 3rd and 4th line don't score at all and I feel that Immonen would help in that area...he is also great defensively.

Here are my lines:

Prucha - Straka - Jagr - 3 Czechs have great chemistry
Cullen - Nylander - Shanahan - Nylander sets up Shany all day
Hall - Immonen - Hossa - Immonen/Hall can create goals with hustle
Hollweg - Betts - Ward - BEST 4th line in the league?

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12-04-2006, 04:40 PM
  #14
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Hall is ok on the second line, but the real problem is not addressed. With the line combos Toms been using, there is only 1 line that scores, with Shanny getting goals wherever he plays. The team needs 4 lines, and these combos should have been worked out in preseason

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12-04-2006, 04:56 PM
  #15
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I really want to see Immonen play the second line, cullen play the third, in which case I don't think it matters whether Hall/Prucha is on line 2 or 3.

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12-04-2006, 05:06 PM
  #16
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Prucha needs a center who can get him the puck, not shoot it instead of him.

When you put Prucha out there with two guys who think shoot first, it's not really going to mesh well with his game.

Does Prucha have work to do on his defense and back checking? You bet, but it doesn't make much sense putting him on the third line in order to do that. In doing so you maximize his weaknesses (size, defense) and minimize his contributions (offense, goals).

That in turn creates a player that doesn't have real value for your team because you're not letting him build up confidence or bring to the table an element he is good at.

Many sophmore snipers aren't that great with their defense, but you teach it to them in time while they are doing what they do best. If this team thinks Prucha is poor on defense, than some of nicest youngers players in the game today would be playing on the 4th line on this team. Seems to me you're compounding the problem with moves like that. Because now you're getting the same defense you got before but you're not getting the points.

As for Hall I don't find his skating to be a problem. He keeps up just fine. The guy just isn't a naturally creative player and so it somewhat limits what he's going to cook up with puck. Hall is a guy who needs a guy like Cullen centering him, but he's not a guy (at least right now) who has shown he can do those things on the second line.

PP to thank or not, Prucha's shown he can get 30 at the NHL level. That's written off way too easily around here, especially considering it was more goals by anyone not named Jagr last season.

It's all about efficiency and finding combinations that work. I don't see either right now.

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12-04-2006, 05:25 PM
  #17
Larry Melnyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Prucha needs a center who can get him the puck, not shoot it instead of him.

When you put Prucha out there with two guys who think shoot first, it's not really going to mesh well with his game.

Does Prucha have work to do on his defense and back checking? You bet, but it doesn't make much sense putting him on the third line in order to do that. In doing so you maximize his weaknesses (size, defense) and minimize his contributions (offense, goals).


It's all about efficiency and finding combinations that work. I don't see either right now.
I really hate using the "blame it on linemates" rationale....No doubt, Prucha would benefit from a better center and a better passer on his line.Unfortuantley, we don't have that player..That still doesn't excuse the lack of attention and effort Prucha has put iinto defense and backcheking.And it doesn't excuse the fact that when he does get the puck in good situations, he does nothing with it...DOn't get me wrong, I think this is only a tempoary thing because the kid can score, but the coaches job is to find the best combos on the team and there was nothing wrong with putting Prucha on the 3rd line to see what effect it might have....Doesn't look like much, I must admit...I honestly like Hall with Shanny and Cullen better but Prucha is totally wasted with Hossa and bets...What is the lesson learned? We never should have signed Cullen! ...before too long, this team is going to have to find a 2nd C by trade..

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12-04-2006, 05:39 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
I really hate using the "blame it on linemates" rationale....No doubt, Prucha would benefit from a better center and a better passer on his line.Unfortuantley, we don't have that player..That still doesn't excuse the lack of attention and effort Prucha has put iinto defense and backcheking.And it doesn't excuse the fact that when he does get the puck in good situations, he does nothing with it...DOn't get me wrong, I think this is only a tempoary thing because the kid can score, but the coaches job is to find the best combos on the team and there was nothing wrong with putting Prucha on the 3rd line to see what effect it might have....Doesn't look like much, I must admit...I honestly like Hall with Shanny and Cullen better but Prucha is totally wasted with Hossa and bets...What is the lesson learned? We never should have signed Cullen! ...before too long, this team is going to have to find a 2nd C by trade..
Understandable but the coaches job is also to put people in situations where they can provide something. Prucha on the third line doesn't do that.

If the second line is having a hard time generating offense outside of Shanahan and Prucha's having difficulties with defense, than it really doesn't make a lot of sense to put him on the third line where he'll provide even less offense and his defensive shortcomings will be further exploited.

Betts simply does not generate offense and frankly he looks outmatched against third line centers. Yeah in theory Prucha is only down on the third line, the problem is that 2/3 of the third line consists of 4th line players.

When it gets to that it becomes a non-point, we could put Prucha on a first line and it wouldn't matter if the linemates are really 4th liners.

And when all is said and done Prucha doesn't look nearly as terrible to me as is being made out.

If anything the guy whose replacing him as shown me far less and the move doesn't exactly scream of a potential big payoff.

At the end of the day this team can tinker all it wants, but it doesn't have the right parts. Until Cullen is playing on a third line where he belongs (and in turn Betts the 4th line) it won't particularly matter who plays with who because it's just not going to work.

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12-04-2006, 06:00 PM
  #19
Larry Melnyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
At the end of the day this team can tinker all it wants, but it doesn't have the right parts. Until Cullen is playing on a third line where he belongs (and in turn Betts the 4th line) it won't particularly matter who plays with who because it's just not going to work.
While we might disagree on the shuffling on Prucha and his responsibility for his play so far (no sense continuing), we agree the main item that you mention above...I just think it will come down to hwo we trade for and what is the cost..

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12-04-2006, 06:10 PM
  #20
Edge
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And that's really the only place this conversation can come to.

It needs a piece, but who knows the cost.

Until it has that piece, it's just not going to work the way it should.

For me it's what I called it in a few other threads: a design flaw.

We can come up a dozen reasons why the car can't make a better time on the track. We can debate it back and forth and we can find little ways to "cheat" but at the end of the day if the car doesn't have the missing part or what an upgrade it needs it's really never going to work the right way.

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12-04-2006, 06:17 PM
  #21
DontStaal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Prucha needs a center who can get him the puck, not shoot it instead of him.

When you put Prucha out there with two guys who think shoot first, it's not really going to mesh well with his game.

Does Prucha have work to do on his defense and back checking? You bet, but it doesn't make much sense putting him on the third line in order to do that. In doing so you maximize his weaknesses (size, defense) and minimize his contributions (offense, goals).

That in turn creates a player that doesn't have real value for your team because you're not letting him build up confidence or bring to the table an element he is good at.

Many sophmore snipers aren't that great with their defense, but you teach it to them in time while they are doing what they do best. If this team thinks Prucha is poor on defense, than some of nicest youngers players in the game today would be playing on the 4th line on this team. Seems to me you're compounding the problem with moves like that. Because now you're getting the same defense you got before but you're not getting the points.

As for Hall I don't find his skating to be a problem. He keeps up just fine. The guy just isn't a naturally creative player and so it somewhat limits what he's going to cook up with puck. Hall is a guy who needs a guy like Cullen centering him, but he's not a guy (at least right now) who has shown he can do those things on the second line.

PP to thank or not, Prucha's shown he can get 30 at the NHL level. That's written off way too easily around here, especially considering it was more goals by anyone not named Jagr last season.

It's all about efficiency and finding combinations that work. I don't see either right now.
thank you edge.. and unfortunately neither cullen or betts or those centers. its obvious that we need to go out and get a playmaking center or bring up imo from HFD and just see how that goes. I like prucha-betts-hossa but i think that betts is the odd man out. He's a defensive center. It'd be interesting to see what Immonen or Dubinsky could do on that line. Unfortunately Renney would give that line about 7 min of gametime if it ever happened.

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