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Rangers @ Blues: Better?

View Poll Results: POTG
Del Zotto 0 0%
Girardi 0 0%
Stralman 0 0%
Fast 0 0%
Pyatt 0 0%
Dorsett 7 8.54%
Brassard 1 1.22%
J. Moore 0 0%
Staal 0 0%
Richards 38 46.34%
Stepan 3 3.66%
Boyle 0 0%
Callahan 17 20.73%
McDonagh 0 0%
D. Moore 0 0%
Zuccarello 3 3.66%
Falk 2 2.44%
Pouliot 0 0%
Lundvist 4 4.88%
Biron 7 8.54%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-13-2013, 12:56 AM
  #176
Esa 10
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Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
He has his talents offensively. I definitely agree. It is too bad that he often makes the same mistakes defensively.
Most offensive defensemen in this league who get top 4 miniutes are this way. Guys that can drive the offense and are solid in their own zone go for $6 million a year and up. Unless you manage to draft them or can find one to overpay in UFA, the trade cost is usually outrageous.

MDZ's problem is he isn't good enough offensively and no one can be sure if he'll get there. His shot and decision-making in the attacking zone are the issue. His defensive lapses would be worth it otherwise. Hell, Letang is a member of the $6 mill. + club and he repeats the same defensive errors year after year.

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Old
10-13-2013, 01:00 AM
  #177
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You're the only one making a large deal out of anything by calling people Zucc fanboys. It's pretty comical when you are basing your argument on how many goals and points he gets when the entire team has scored less than 11 or 12 goals. Even more that you pick him out of all players.
You should trying working on your reading comprehension. I said numerous times he wasn't being singled out. It's comical to base an argument on stats as well as what I or others have seen? What big plays has he made exactly in these games? For someone so incredibly talented how come he continues to struggle to make his mark? Maybe he's just not as good as some people think along with a few other players on this team. Players of his skill sets only real job is to create offense, if they don't then it's fair to criticize them just like its fair to criticize Dorsett tonight like I did for failing in his role.

I'll say it again, when the team plays the way it has no player is immune to criticism unless they are completely settting the world on fire which neither Zuc or anyone else is doing. Get over it already, if a few of you want to keep jumping on him being mentioned along with other players who need to be better then so be it, I'm not responding to it or trying to clarify it any more for you. Just keep ignoring everything else I said and only focus on the name MZA!


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10-13-2013, 01:02 AM
  #178
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Ugh. Marty Biron has been pure and utter Garbage for a while now. Please.....just release him.

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10-13-2013, 01:13 AM
  #179
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So..what do we need to turn that frown upside down?

Trades?roster movements?

Regarding mza, I like his style but he and his line needs to produce points and goals.

Positives from this horrible season start is Richards looks to have found his mojo and we've scored some PP goals..that's it..

Key players are strugling (our entire D, cally, steph, zuke's line and our goalie's)

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10-13-2013, 01:15 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by LeetchisGod View Post
Sad but true. Admittedly his defense has gone from atrocious to serviceable but his offense has plateaued.
He's barely 23 years old. Nothing about a 23 year old defenseman has EVER "plateaued." Most of the players we wish MDZ played like were just breaking into the league when they were 23. As I said, the best years of this kid's career are in front of him, not behind.

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10-13-2013, 01:20 AM
  #181
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Zuc and Pouliot, who I believe was the other player mentioned, have zero points. For players that need to produce offense to be effective that isn't good enough especially when the scores have been pretty lopsided against us. Saying they need to be better, along with other players, isn't the big deal some of you are making it out to be.

Just relax, we get it, you guys love MZA. Feel free to continue your attachment to him, that's your right as fans.

The only ones to single him out were the ones who picked his name out of a list of a few other disappointing players.

You've got me grouped into a category that I really don't fit. I was being dead serious--I'm totally ambivalent about MZA. They could trade him tomorrow and it wouldn't bother me. I wasn't bothered when they let him go last year. I'm gun shy over getting attached to little players after Prucha turned out to be such an epic disaster.

I am not an MZA fanboy in the slightest. I'm just surprised that, after a game where we scored 3 goals and the top 3 defensemen collectively shat the bed, the post-game thread had more posts about MZA (who didn't help the effort but didn't contribute to the loss) and Del Zotto (the best d-man out there tonight).

The issue is our top 3 d. Aside from LA, they literally have stunk every game. Stunk. McDonagh has more bad games this season than he had collectively over the last three years. This is a problem, and people seem more concerned with periphery issues. That just struck me as odd.

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10-13-2013, 01:26 AM
  #182
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MDZ's problem is he isn't good enough offensively and no one can be sure if he'll get there. His shot and decision-making in the attacking zone are the issue. His defensive lapses would be worth it otherwise. Hell, Letang is a member of the $6 mill. + club and he repeats the same defensive errors year after year.
Yup, and when Letang was Del Zotto's age, his career high was 33 points. He didn't hit his current level of production until a couple of years later, and that's WITH him having two of the top 3 offensive players in the game to pass to. Patience is a virtue, folks.

I do get that there is concern that he might not take that next step. I just think people are expecting too much when they think he's a bust because he hasn't taken that step by age 23. Outside of top 3 drafted players, it's pretty rare for PMDs to hit that kind of production that early in their careers.

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10-13-2013, 01:27 AM
  #183
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You've got me grouped into a category that I really don't fit. I was being dead serious--I'm totally ambivalent about MZA. They could trade him tomorrow and it wouldn't bother me. I wasn't bothered when they let him go last year. I'm gun shy over getting attached to little players after Prucha turned out to be such an epic disaster.

I am not an MZA fanboy in the slightest. I'm just surprised that, after a game where we scored 3 goals and the top 3 defensemen collectively shat the bed, the post-game thread had more posts about MZA (who didn't help the effort but didn't contribute to the loss) and Del Zotto (the best d-man out there tonight).

The issue is our top 3 d. Aside from LA, they literally have stunk every game. Stunk. McDonagh has more bad games this season than he had collectively over the last three years. This is a problem, and people seem more concerned with periphery issues. That just struck me as odd.
Fair enough although the fact that we scored 3 and neither he nor Pouliot were involved again should be a concern when we were relying on these players for depth scoring. So far only the usual suspects have contributed offensively which is part of the reason why we have the record we have. If this continues for an extended period of time it's an issue that will need to be addressed.

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10-13-2013, 01:43 AM
  #184
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We're not comparing Del Zotto and Letang are we?

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10-13-2013, 01:48 AM
  #185
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Fair enough although the fact that we scored 3 and neither he nor Pouliot were involved again should be a concern when we were relying on these players for depth scoring. So far only the usual suspects have contributed offensively which is part of the reason why we have the record we have. If this continues for an extended period of time it's an issue that will need to be addressed.
True, but that is the ONE thing that, to me, can be pinned on the guys we have out injured. Pouliot, Brassard and MZA looked great against LA--when we still had Nash. When Nash and Hagelin are back, guys like Pouliot and MZA will be knocked down the lines a bit. Right now, they are being shuffled between the 1st and 2nd lines. They are better suited to be shuffling between the 2nd and (more likely) 3rd lines. When we get healthy, they will be where they are best suited, and I think they will be able to take advantage of the easier match-ups they will find there. If we get healthy and they are still pulling the vanishing act, we are fortunate enough to have a farm full of guys just itching to get their chance. If guys like Kristo, Kreider and Miller look ready, the Pouliots and MZAs of the world won't really stand in their way. I guess I don't get too worked up over those guys because I see them (and Pyatt and D.Moore and Boyle) as little more than place-holders for the kids on the farm.

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10-13-2013, 02:31 AM
  #186
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So excited the next few games are not only not against Cup contenders, but teams somehow lower than us in the division standings.

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10-13-2013, 02:33 AM
  #187
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So Yak was a healthy scratch for EDM tonight...I'm sure they're looking for defence.
Would you trade MDZ for Yakupov...I know I would but would the Oilers do that.

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10-13-2013, 02:37 AM
  #188
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So Yak was a healthy scratch for EDM tonight...I'm sure they're looking for defence.
Would you trade MDZ for Yakupov...I know I would but would the Oilers do that.
I would trade an entire team of MDZ's for Yakupov.

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10-13-2013, 02:48 AM
  #189
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STL deserved to win for sure, it seemed like the ref's wanted to give us a break and that let us hang in there for a while.

I love how Joe M mentioned how we were "talking about making passes to the blade" in practise, that's what 9 y/o focus on. But after Torts work with this team, hardly a suprise. There are passes on the skates, 10 inches of the ice, behind players, every single shift. Or players just completely forgetting themselves and skating in to the corner and just slapping a puck up along the boards (McD is certainly the worst repeat offender). Its not about being clutch or not, look at STL. They are darn clutch and darn "defensive" in a way, they still pass the puck. They never just fire the puck up the ice, if McD blindly used a slap shot to get the puck up ice along the boards 8 times tonight, all players on STL used that play once or twice.

I definitely think we need a personell change on the blueline. But overall AV just got an extreme amount of drilling infront of him. He gotta catch up 3.5 years of mismanage.

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10-13-2013, 02:58 AM
  #190
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your kidding right? he's been one of our best forwards.. certainly better than stephan
How has he been better than Stepan? Read the numbers. Stepan has 5 points in 5 games. Zuccarello has zero. ZERO!

I know, the stats don´t tell the whole story, but they certainly do not lie either.

I love Zuccarello, but this isn´t good enough. It is actually unacceptable from him. Before the season started, Zucc had never gone more than 3 games without producing. And that was under Torts whit a lot less ice time.
So far he has sucked big time, except for a good game against LA, and he really needs to come out strong in the coming games to keep his spot in the roster.

Very, very, very disappointed in him this season.

Btw, does Zuccarello have to go through waivers if sent down to Hartford?


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10-13-2013, 03:10 AM
  #191
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Could anyone give me a synopsis of the game today? Was a t a concert and found out the score.

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10-13-2013, 03:10 AM
  #192
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We're not comparing Del Zotto and Letang are we?
They both have some pretty sweet hair.

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10-13-2013, 03:24 AM
  #193
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STL deserved to win for sure, it seemed like the ref's wanted to give us a break and that let us hang in there for a while.

I love how Joe M mentioned how we were "talking about making passes to the blade" in practise, that's what 9 y/o focus on. But after Torts work with this team, hardly a suprise. There are passes on the skates, 10 inches of the ice, behind players, every single shift. Or players just completely forgetting themselves and skating in to the corner and just slapping a puck up along the boards (McD is certainly the worst repeat offender). Its not about being clutch or not, look at STL. They are darn clutch and darn "defensive" in a way, they still pass the puck. They never just fire the puck up the ice, if McD blindly used a slap shot to get the puck up ice along the boards 8 times tonight, all players on STL used that play once or twice.

I definitely think we need a personell change on the blueline. But overall AV just got an extreme amount of drilling infront of him. He gotta catch up 3.5 years of mismanage.
My internet went down today (missed the game), and I'm assuming it's still not working properly because it sounds like you are trying to say that missing basic passes (something which 9 year olds can do as you alluded too) is all Tort's fault. That somehow 3.5 years of coaching (less for most as a lot of this team is relatively new) overcomes a lifetime of practice.

I get that people didn't like/didn't agree with Torts, but wow...

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10-13-2013, 03:37 AM
  #194
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My internet went down today (missed the game), and I'm assuming it's still not working properly because it sounds like you are trying to say that missing basic passes (something which 9 year olds can do as you alluded too) is all Tort's fault. That somehow 3.5 years of coaching (less for most as a lot of this team is relatively new) overcomes a lifetime of practice.

I get that people didn't like/didn't agree with Torts, but wow...
I don't know if it was Torts or something else, but I noticed the huge difference in passing as well. The Blues would just make beautiful passes to move the puck around the ice, particularly in the attacking zone. To see that and have it juxtaposed with the Rangers, who were lucky to complete two passes in a row was just sad. The Rangers were so easy to pickpocket because they were always reaching for the puck, digging it out from the boards or trying to get it out of their own skates. They seriously looked like they had never completed a pass in their lives. And this was one of their better games so far this season. Hopefully it gets better, as we do have some talented playmakers (Brassard, Step, Nash, Richards, MZA, MDZ, McD).

Incidentally, I'm totally jealous--I visited Australia back in 2010, and it was the best week of my life. Just a beautiful country, and a week wasn't nearly enough time to explore.

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10-13-2013, 03:49 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I don't know if it was Torts or something else, but I noticed the huge difference in passing as well. The Blues would just make beautiful passes to move the puck around the ice, particularly in the attacking zone. To see that and have it juxtaposed with the Rangers, who were lucky to complete two passes in a row was just sad. The Rangers were so easy to pickpocket because they were always reaching for the puck, digging it out from the boards or trying to get it out of their own skates. They seriously looked like they had never completed a pass in their lives. And this was one of their better games so far this season. Hopefully it gets better, as we do have some talented playmakers (Brassard, Step, Nash, Richards, MZA, MDZ, McD).

Incidentally, I'm totally jealous--I visited Australia back in 2010, and it was the best week of my life. Just a beautiful country, and a week wasn't nearly enough time to explore.
The team is in transition from one system to another. The timing is off. Has nothing to do with either AV or Torts.

Whether people like it or not, it takes a couple months to get the body to react naturally to a new way of doing things. A simple moment of hesitation or reflex action of the old system will cause the team to look clunky and uncoordinated. We have to remember, teams like St. Louis, Boston, Chicago, SJ, etc, have been together and using the same basic system for a few years now. They will have a huge advantage this month over teams that have bigger roster and system changes.

Best bet is to just write off October as a learning curve month. Hopefully the team can squeak out a enough points to stay in the playoffs range so they don't have to paly catch-up for the rest of the season.

The team will turn it around and be much better around Xmas. You'll see.

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10-13-2013, 04:08 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I don't know if it was Torts or something else, but I noticed the huge difference in passing as well. The Blues would just make beautiful passes to move the puck around the ice, particularly in the attacking zone. To see that and have it juxtaposed with the Rangers, who were lucky to complete two passes in a row was just sad. The Rangers were so easy to pickpocket because they were always reaching for the puck, digging it out from the boards or trying to get it out of their own skates. They seriously looked like they had never completed a pass in their lives. And this was one of their better games so far this season. Hopefully it gets better, as we do have some talented playmakers (Brassard, Step, Nash, Richards, MZA, MDZ, McD).

Incidentally, I'm totally jealous--I visited Australia back in 2010, and it was the best week of my life. Just a beautiful country, and a week wasn't nearly enough time to explore.
To make good passing plays you need confidence. To get confidence you need to win games and succeed with the plays on the ice. So far none of these are present.
You see this in all sports. In times when teams are struggling, the puck (or ball) have a strange way of hitting the post and bouncing out.
When the team is succeeding and are on a streak, the puck hits the post, bounces back out and hits the goalie and goes in..... The seemingly impossible plays somehow succeeds. The difficult passes comes through.

The players are learning at complete new system. It takes time. You don´t expect the Rangers to come out flying and winning every game. But it is still not acceptable to lose 2-14 in two games......

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10-13-2013, 04:17 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
I don't know if it was Torts or something else, but I noticed the huge difference in passing as well. The Blues would just make beautiful passes to move the puck around the ice, particularly in the attacking zone. To see that and have it juxtaposed with the Rangers, who were lucky to complete two passes in a row was just sad. The Rangers were so easy to pickpocket because they were always reaching for the puck, digging it out from the boards or trying to get it out of their own skates. They seriously looked like they had never completed a pass in their lives. And this was one of their better games so far this season. Hopefully it gets better, as we do have some talented playmakers (Brassard, Step, Nash, Richards, MZA, MDZ, McD).

Incidentally, I'm totally jealous--I visited Australia back in 2010, and it was the best week of my life. Just a beautiful country, and a week wasn't nearly enough time to explore.
Outside of Straka-Nylander-Jagr our passing was suspect under Renney, it was suspect under Torts and it will likely be suspect under Torts. My point was simply "it ain't the coach, it's the cattle". Trying to pin poor basic skills on Torts seems like a reach to me.

And yeah, I'm very lucky with were I live, but it's all relative; the 2 weeks I spent in NY was probably the best experience of my life and I can't wait to head back there

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10-13-2013, 04:29 AM
  #198
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Our defense and Biron were the reasons we lost this game. Our offense actually looked decent and our forecheck was doing pretty well. Staal was horrid and was at fault for 2 of the goals. He completely lost his man on both. He covers his man and the Rangers probably would have won. Same can be said for Biron... he doesn't completely suck.. and the Rangers could have won.

It's nice to see us playing better offensively but our D needs to get it together. Cover your F'ing man!

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10-13-2013, 04:58 AM
  #199
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True, but that is the ONE thing that, to me, can be pinned on the guys we have out injured. Pouliot, Brassard and MZA looked great against LA--when we still had Nash. When Nash and Hagelin are back, guys like Pouliot and MZA will be knocked down the lines a bit. Right now, they are being shuffled between the 1st and 2nd lines. They are better suited to be shuffling between the 2nd and (more likely) 3rd lines. When we get healthy, they will be where they are best suited, and I think they will be able to take advantage of the easier match-ups they will find there. If we get healthy and they are still pulling the vanishing act, we are fortunate enough to have a farm full of guys just itching to get their chance. If guys like Kristo, Kreider and Miller look ready, the Pouliots and MZAs of the world won't really stand in their way. I guess I don't get too worked up over those guys because I see them (and Pyatt and D.Moore and Boyle) as little more than place-holders for the kids on the farm.
My point was just that having scoring depth means we have players that are capable of stepping up when players are injured or just plain not getting it done/playing well. If they aren't able to contribute offensively when called upon they amount to nothing more than placeholders, like you said. My idea of depth is having people who can put up points when for whatever reason your top guys are not, it's not just having warm bodies to move around.

If we plan on being a contender we need to start making sure we actually have the depth needed for these situations/occasions instead of just hoping that we do only to find out we really don't. This franchise has a history of putting people in positions and roles they either aren't ready for or have no track record of being successful in.


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10-13-2013, 06:02 AM
  #200
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My internet went down today (missed the game), and I'm assuming it's still not working properly because it sounds like you are trying to say that missing basic passes (something which 9 year olds can do as you alluded too) is all Tort's fault. That somehow 3.5 years of coaching (less for most as a lot of this team is relatively new) overcomes a lifetime of practice.

I get that people didn't like/didn't agree with Torts, but wow...
Its not an opinion, its a fact.

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