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Rangers @ Blues: Better?

View Poll Results: POTG
Del Zotto 0 0%
Girardi 0 0%
Stralman 0 0%
Fast 0 0%
Pyatt 0 0%
Dorsett 7 8.54%
Brassard 1 1.22%
J. Moore 0 0%
Staal 0 0%
Richards 38 46.34%
Stepan 3 3.66%
Boyle 0 0%
Callahan 17 20.73%
McDonagh 0 0%
D. Moore 0 0%
Zuccarello 3 3.66%
Falk 2 2.44%
Pouliot 0 0%
Lundvist 4 4.88%
Biron 7 8.54%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-13-2013, 12:01 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Zucc and Pouliot are what they are. Good at creating chances. Not the most adept at finishing them. Not particularly useful outside of that.

The issue is not that they're "playing bad". They are what they are. The issue is that they are being counted on to be 2nd line players for a team that has/had top aspiration.
Agreed, I never said they needed to score goals alone to provide offense. They both have 0 points on a team starved for offense. If they don't succeed in a offensive role they are useless. Plenty of games left to see how it pans out but so far I haven't seen anything to suggest this will change all that much. If I end up wrong then great cause that means these guys and the team picked it up and got their game going. I only care about results not trying to win an "I told you so" battle!

If the team was built correctly it wouldn't be such an issue. This team needs to decide whether its really a contender or a pretender and adjust accordingly.

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10-13-2013, 12:02 PM
  #227
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Is that first Rangers team in 15 years or first team period? That seems a bit hard to believe it was first team period with how many teams there are in the league and how many years that is.
I think I heard, or more likely saw on twitter, that we where the first team since Atlanta in their first season in the NHL to loose concequtive games with a 5 goal marginal or more than 5 goals. That must have been close to 15 years ago. Or maybe a little less.

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10-13-2013, 12:05 PM
  #228
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Interesting to see Alex Steen.

I've seen a ton of him since he was like 17 y/o. Boy has he improved for a long time now. He was definitely not better than say Fast at the age Jesper is today, but he has worked out extremely hard on a regular basis for a long time now.

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10-13-2013, 12:07 PM
  #229
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The Rangers played better overall.

They played much better offensively (first game with multiple goals where they didn't go in off of the other team).

The effort level, especially in the offensive zone and on the forecheck, was considerably higher.

They played just about as bad as they have in each game on defense. Biron was horrible, but our defense still can't do anything right. The Backes tip in was such an example of this. He walks right down the pipe and gets a pass on the tape for a tip in and there's no one even swinging a stick in his direction. The reason we outshot the blues wasn't because our defense shut them down but because our offense and forecheck kept the puck out of our zone for longer periods, and we got gifted a good amount of PP time.

When the Blues wanted to close it out late in the game though, they completely took over and manhandled us. It looked like they sat back a bit in the middle of the game because they had the lead from the jump and never had to worry too bad about us tying it up. Each time we'd get within a goal, they'd come back and get a quick one. With the two goal lead, they never pressed much. Late in the game, they became absolutely dominant and you could see how disjointed our team still is, especially in trying to get out of our own end.

Right now, the defense is killing us. It's horrible. The offense, at even strength, is also non-existent. Our PP is clicking, which is a nice change. We're not playing good hockey, overall, still. But at least there were bright spots in that game.

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Old
10-13-2013, 12:10 PM
  #230
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What type of system should the Rangers be playing?

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10-13-2013, 12:11 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
Agreed, I never said they needed to score goals alone to provide offense. They both have 0 points on a team starved for offense. If they don't succeed in a offensive role they are useless. Plenty of games left to see how it pans out but so far I haven't seen anything to suggest this will change all that much. If I end up wrong then great cause that means these guys and the team picked it up and got their game going. I only care about results not trying to win an "I told you so" battle!

If the team was built correctly it wouldn't be such an issue. This team needs to decide whether its really a contender or a pretender and adjust accordingly.
I would agree with this. They're not being asked to be our penalty killers or two-way guys. They're not being expected to rack up tons of hits and bring a physical presence. They're not here for their leadership or experience. If they don't break 30 points it's an utter failure for what their actual role is. It doesn't matter how they LOOK on the way to the result. It matters what the end result is. There's no way it's asking too much for them to be ~35 point players; in fact, if that's all they are, we're probably in trouble unless we add another top-six winger somehow.

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Old
10-13-2013, 12:13 PM
  #232
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What type of system should the Rangers be playing?
The one they've been playing the past several years. The PP is clicking this year, with the same exact players on it. If the PP had clicked last year, we would have been a very good team. Ditto the year we went to the ECF; we would have been in the finals.

So far, the PP is the ONLY thing better than last year. Torts' system was the correct system for the players that we have.

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10-13-2013, 12:17 PM
  #233
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What type of system should the Rangers be playing?
One that resembles NHL hockey and finds a way to mask the poor fundamentals this team has displayed so far. They either need to be trained up from the very basics of the sport or they need to find a system that allows them to not look like a bunch of pee wee's out there.

Both the players and the coach have said its not the system when players can't make simple passes and reads so it would seem that starting from scratch and working on the very basics would be a good start. Passing, Shooting and Defensive Coverage needs to be improved ASAP one way or another!

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10-13-2013, 12:25 PM
  #234
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Yay looked better... Still lost. We have low expectations apparently.

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Old
10-13-2013, 12:31 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Interesting to see Alex Steen.

I've seen a ton of him since he was like 17 y/o. Boy has he improved for a long time now. He was definitely not better than say Fast at the age Jesper is today, but he has worked out extremely hard on a regular basis for a long time now.
I don't know what it is but it seems that every time we play a team with Steen on it he just eats us alive.

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Old
10-13-2013, 12:50 PM
  #236
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I am a Mets fan.

I am a Giants fan.

I am a Rangers fan.

..It hurts.
I'm a Rangers fan: HURTS

I'm a Seahawks fan: Great season

I'm a Natal Sharks fan (Rugby): Playing 7 finals in 8 years and only winning 2. Hurts

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10-13-2013, 01:11 PM
  #237
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Dorsett should be scratched for next game.

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Old
10-13-2013, 01:17 PM
  #238
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Canucks fan here, how has your transition game and puck support leaving the zone been? That was a consistent issue last year in Van that never got addressed.

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10-13-2013, 02:19 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Amused To Death View Post
Canucks fan here, how has your transition game and puck support leaving the zone been? That was a consistent issue last year in Van that never got addressed.
The last few years we didn't have a transition game. That part has been good. We've done a better job of going from defense to offense and getting into the zone. Our issues have been mostly with defensive zone coverage.

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10-13-2013, 02:20 PM
  #240
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It's been better than what is was before, it used to be transition game a la failure to exist

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10-13-2013, 04:42 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
"I have never seen a team so afraid to pass the puck", Mattias Norström during the PO's last season.

I am telling you Mike, its showing. If you don't see it, quote "wow". When we try just to kIplay the most simplistic game with an organized breakout, ie what basically all other teams in this league is doing, we start to break records with our sucking. First team in like 15 years to loose by more than 5 goals in concequtive goals.

I know there are many Torts fans who loved his tough talk to the media etc, but nobody can seriously argue that this team hasn't been extremely badly coached for a long time when seing what a complete mess we are when trying to play a basic hockey game. Sickening.
Stupid time zones and my need for beauty sleep...

The problem with you claiming that we are "3.5 years behind" (because of Torts) is that it just doesn't stack up. Leaving behind the idea that no NHL coach should be teaching the 'basics' (even at CHL level it should just be the final polish), due to our GM this team hasn't been around to work together for that long. Let's look at the list:

Richards - reckon I remember some nice passes during his cup winning season under Torts, I knew he could pass in Dallas, so is 1.5 seasons enough to 'unlearn all that'? Nah

Nash - 1 shortened season

Step - yep, you've got one

Brassard - not even close

Cally - thats 2

Boyle - i'll give you him as 3 but i'm not sure he could ever pass

Dorsett - see brassard

Asham - nope

Fast - nope

Moore - nope

Pouliot - nope

Mza - 65 games with time in europe. Nope

Pyatt - nope

Hagelin - sure if you want, he's 4.

Staal - again, if you want but he missed large chunks of 2 seasons

MDZ - yep

Girardi - yep

McD -2 full seasons, but sure, why not

Stralman - nope

Moore - see brassard

4 fwds, 4 d-men and somehow Torts taught them all to forget how to do stuff they've been doing since they were kids.

From the bit I've seen of CBJ dubu, AA and Gabby seem to be passing ok, their coaching staff must be miricale workers...

Torts' game plan was rubish, no argument, but to blame him for the poor skills is a cop out. The blame lies with the guy who assembled the team and the players themselves.

Despite your assertions I am not a 'Torts lover', I don't really care who coaches the rangers, but whether it be torts, AV or Bowman, this team will remain a bubble playoff team until changes are made at the top and within the playing group. None of which has anything to do with 3.5 missing years under torts...

Dordett


Last edited by mike14: 10-13-2013 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Wrote the whole thing on my phone, sorry if the spelling and format is a bit off
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Old
10-13-2013, 04:52 PM
  #242
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Leaving behind the idea that no NHL coach should be teaching the 'basics' (even at CHL level it should just be the final polish)
I agree with the turnover part of your post, but I just want to point out that even the most skilled people in any sport, craft or profession needs to practice those skills to keep them at their peak. Why do you think that touring musicians still play just about everyday even when they're playing shows every night?

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10-13-2013, 04:59 PM
  #243
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I agree with the turnover part of your post, but I just want to point out that even the most skilled people in any sport, craft or profession needs to practice those skills to keep them at their peak. Why do you think that touring musicians still play just about everyday even when they're playing shows every night?
Of course they do. But they are confirming taught behaviour (for the most part) not learning something new. The rangers would have made thousands if passes during practices with torts. He didn't hold them back in that regard, and if they needed help to get that skill down pat then they shouldn't have been there.

I remember my year 10 footy coach telling us that he wasn't there to teach us to kick, and he was correct. if it's true enough for a high school sports team its true enough for proffesionals. Blaming the coach is an easy out for stuff like that

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10-13-2013, 06:06 PM
  #244
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I'm pretty sure Tortorella never had them run offensive skills drills. It's not about improvement. It is about maintenance. Making passes as part of a defensive scheme is one thing, but it isn't what Ola was talking about.

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10-13-2013, 06:25 PM
  #245
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The fact that some people are saying "better" to a 5-3 loss just speaks volumes about where we are as a team right now.

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10-13-2013, 06:42 PM
  #246
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The fact that some people are saying "better" to a 5-3 loss just speaks volumes about where we are as a team right now.
That was a game against a Cup contender that they could have won. I think they can build from that, and possibly right the ship against 3 teams that aren't doing so great either; 1 of which we've owned in recent history.

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10-13-2013, 07:31 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by mike14 View Post
The problem with you claiming that we are "3.5 years behind" (because of Torts) is that it just doesn't stack up. Leaving behind the idea that no NHL coach should be teaching the 'basics' (even at CHL level it should just be the final polish), due to our GM this team hasn't been around to work together for that long. Let's look at the list:

Richards - reckon I remember some nice passes during his cup winning season under Torts, I knew he could pass in Dallas, so is 1.5 seasons enough to 'unlearn all that'? Nah

.....

4 fwds, 4 d-men and somehow Torts taught them all to forget how to do stuff they've been doing since they were kids.

From the bit I've seen of CBJ dubu, AA and Gabby seem to be passing ok, their coaching staff must be miricale workers...

Torts' game plan was rubish, no argument, but to blame him for the poor skills is a cop out. The blame lies with the guy who assembled the team and the players themselves.

Despite your assertions I am not a 'Torts lover', I don't really care who coaches the rangers, but whether it be torts, AV or Bowman, this team will remain a bubble playoff team until changes are made at the top and within the playing group. None of which has anything to do with 3.5 missing years under torts...

Dordett
Everything I've read indicates top tier coaches drill fundamentals home very hard at the pro level. We're not talking about seeing the ice like Adam Oates, we're talking about the simple ability to break out of your zone with proper positioning and smart short passes that make the puck do the work. The Rangers were totally void of this under Torts.

Yet you look at a well coached team and this is second nature. That is not a talent issue, it is what is repeatedly practiced. Consider a Mike Babcock coached team, and his 3rd and 4th lines could break out and transition better than the Rangers 1st and 2nd lines, despite Detroit's 4th line being much less skilled. That is entirely fundamentals and coaching.

I have been saying the exact same things as Ola for years now, this team was a fundamental abortion. And these things absolutely must be practiced, especially at the highest levels. To use the Bruce Lee quote, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10000 times."

I remember reading a Bart Starr autobio, talking about how much he and the players hated practice under Vince Lombardi, that he would spend so little time on plays and they were spending a painful amount of time drilling fundamentals. But Starr would then say, game day would hit and you almost never had to think... it was so drilled into our heads that what to do was automatic and we just acted instantly.

Well coached teams exhibit exactly that nature in their play, the NY Rangers of the last few seasons looked totally opposite. This was a horribly coached team fundamentally. I do appreciate what Torts did in instilling a work ethic and a collaborative team mentality. There is a lot to be said for that. But Jesus, Buddha, and Bowman could coach this team right now and would have a lot of work to do to correct the lack of fundamentals in this team.

It's impossible to say this soon what affect AV will have or how he will do, but just seeing the Rangers PP at 23.5% and Van's plummeting to 10.5% does not shock me.

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10-13-2013, 08:46 PM
  #248
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That was a game against a Cup contender that they could have won. I think they can build from that, and possibly right the ship against 3 teams that aren't doing so great either; 1 of which we've owned in recent history.
Are SJS and Anaheim not cup contenders? Both made the playoffs last year no? Phoenix may not be a cup contender but the Rangers still lost. There are no excuses that can be made for this team right now. The only possible one I can understand would be to reserve judgement until after this horrendous road trip is over.

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10-13-2013, 09:21 PM
  #249
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It's not an excuse, it was performance that I think they can build off of; They're not just going to be good one day.

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10-13-2013, 09:43 PM
  #250
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Are SJS and Anaheim not cup contenders? Both made the playoffs last year no? Phoenix may not be a cup contender but the Rangers still lost. There are no excuses that can be made for this team right now. The only possible one I can understand would be to reserve judgement until after this horrendous road trip is over.
not for nothing but STL is about a mile better than both of them. But they did play a pretty good game against a top 5 team in the league. The only excuse that can be made is Biron literally cost this team two goals. And maybe if Staal learned to cover his ****ing man literally one goal would have been scored. They did put forth a good effort. Can't just write off every loss as a bad game.

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