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Old
10-13-2013, 08:52 PM
  #226
Tiranis
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Originally Posted by SgtToody View Post
And you're hoping Edler doesn't regress (like guys like Myers, Ballard etc), or suffers a serious injury (like something to his back or knee) or just is one of 4 very solid D-men who sop up too large a piece of our cap space while management cycles the likes of Ebbett (miss), Sturm (double-miss), Santorelli (hit so far) and Dalpe through the lineup while eagerly anticipating more Ponce deLeon moments for the Sedins, Kesler and Burrows...
Well, by that logic we should trade all our established players for prospects. Then when those prospects are established, trade them for more prospects.

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Old
10-13-2013, 08:59 PM
  #227
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Well, by that logic we should trade all our established players for prospects. Then when those prospects are established, trade them for more prospects.
Welcome to HF?


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Old
10-13-2013, 09:54 PM
  #228
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Except we weren't in a rebuild when the proposal was made and we aren't there now. That's the premise of my comments.

Your "what if" scenario indicates a rebuild. Reality at the time of the Detroit proposal does not indicate a rebuild. That's the difference.

If we are in a rebuild, Edler is our youngest D and certainly most promising. A rebuild means selling off your old junk and bringing in youth. So why are we trading our youngest top 4 D man who has an exceptional contract?
Basically what I'm thinking.

Successful rebuilds all seem to start with defense already being there and ready to play. Chicago had Duncan Keith and Seabrook ready to go when Toews and Kane stepped on. Pitt had Gonchar and didn't part with him until Letang was ready. I'm going to go out of my way and predict Calgary is going to have an easier time than Edmonton with their rebuild because they have Giordano, Brody, Wideman, etc.

The kind of return I look for Edler is the kind of return Philly got for Carter and Richards. Detroit doesn't have any pieces comparable to Simmonds, B. Schenn, Voracek, Couturier.


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Old
10-13-2013, 10:35 PM
  #229
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I feel like people really think that teams go into a rebuild expecting to finish dead last year after year like Edmonton has, and that this is somehow a good process. It's weird.

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10-13-2013, 11:31 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Oh okay. To be clear I wouldn't do it either, because I don't think we should rebuild. Although if we do try to rebuild then there's a good chance some players might prefer to be traded. Just because Edler is 27 doesn't mean he'd be okay with wasting 3-5 years of his career while we collect high draft picks and wait for prospects to develop.
I don't know, Edler does not strike me as a guy who would request a trade in that situation or a guy who really gets too down on any situation. But that's just speculative on my part. Anything could happen.

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Basically what I'm thinking.

Successful rebuilds all seem to start with defense already being there and ready to play. Chicago had Duncan Keith and Seabrook ready to go when Toews and Kane stepped on. Pitt had Gonchar and didn't part with him until Letang was ready. I'm going to go out of my way and predict Calgary is going to have an easier time than Edmonton with their rebuild because they have Giordano, Brody, Wideman, etc.

The kind of return I look for Edler is the kind of return Philly got for Carter and Richards. Detroit doesn't have any pieces comparable to Simmonds, B. Schenn, Voracek, Couturier.
I agree about your rebuild theory and the kind of packages to be looking for.

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10-13-2013, 11:43 PM
  #231
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrMJcmG249g
Stud!

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Old
10-13-2013, 11:54 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by thefeebster View Post
I don't know, Edler does not strike me as a guy who would request a trade in that situation or a guy who really gets too down on any situation. But that's just speculative on my part. Anything could happen.

I agree about your rebuild theory and the kind of packages to be looking for.
I think the only player I would trade Edler for would be an elite Center prospect.

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10-13-2013, 11:54 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by RobertKron View Post
I feel like people really think that teams go into a rebuild expecting to finish dead last year after year like Edmonton has, and that this is somehow a good process. It's weird.
It really is strange isn't it? Instead of wanting to do more of a retool, people want to blow up the whole team. Even if the team plays poorly this year hopefully Gillis maintains the defense and the Sedins. Having that veteran leadership will allow a rebuild/retool to be more effective because the kids will have that core to help them grow. When there is no veteran core situations like Edmonton happen.

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Old
10-14-2013, 12:02 AM
  #234
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we not going to rebuild.....obviously too early and we going for the playoff

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Old
10-14-2013, 12:30 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by SighReally View Post
So basically you're describing risks (injury and regression) that could apply to almost any player. Solid argument!

Also comparing Edler to Ballard and Myers destroys any credibility (which you didn't have in the beginning considering your post history) that you may have had.
Sarge wouldn't take Crosby for a 2nd in case he got a knock to the melon.

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Old
10-14-2013, 12:50 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by CanadianPirate View Post
It really is strange isn't it? Instead of wanting to do more of a retool, people want to blow up the whole team. Even if the team plays poorly this year hopefully Gillis maintains the defense and the Sedins. Having that veteran leadership will allow a rebuild/retool to be more effective because the kids will have that core to help them grow. When there is no veteran core situations like Edmonton happen.
This team will have a salary cap hit of $61-62m with 23 players once we buy out Booth. That's nearly $10m worth of players we can add next year. Horvat cracks the 3C role, Shinkaruk pushes up next to Kesler, we bring in a star winger for Kesler. Goes a long way to a rebuild with Gaunce and Jensen waiting nearby.

Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
Hunter Shinkaruk ($1.138m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Zack Kassian ($1.000m)
Chris Higgins ($2.500m) / Bo Horvat ($1.775m) / Jannik Hansen ($2.500m)
Mike Santorelli ($0.550m) / Brad Richardson ($1.150m) / Nicklas Jensen ($0.863m)
Tom Sestito ($0.750m) / Jordan Schroeder ($0.660m) /

Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Chris Tanev ($1.500m)
Jason Garrison ($4.600m) / Frank Corrado ($0.599m)
Ryan Stanton ($0.550m) /

Roberto Luongo ($5.333m)
Eddie Lack ($1.000m)

$62,268,611 (inc BONUSES: $1,070,833)

That's a $61m roster + deferred bonuses. If the cap goes to $70m that nearly $9m free space + whatever salaries you replace (ie Jensen). This year is just going to be an ugly grind, next year should be much better and hopefully we see a few rookies.

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Old
10-14-2013, 03:06 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Well, by that logic we should trade all our established players for prospects. Then when those prospects are established, trade them for more prospects.
No, but it's a counter to "our players are untouchable, but let's wait until they are older and contribute less and we can get a king's random based on one 40 goal season 3 years ago..." The people who line up Edler alongside the best defencemen in the league, while musing how they want Schroeder to answer our offensive issues could use a counter opinion to balance things out.

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10-14-2013, 05:31 AM
  #238
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How did this thread turn into the armchair GM thread.

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Old
10-14-2013, 11:24 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by SgtToody View Post
No, but it's a counter to "our players are untouchable, but let's wait until they are older and contribute less and we can get a king's random based on one 40 goal season 3 years ago..." The people who line up Edler alongside the best defencemen in the league, while musing how they want Schroeder to answer our offensive issues could use a counter opinion to balance things out.
Or, you could try presenting a valid rational argument and save everyone the time of reading hysterical hyperbole.

But hey, maybe that's just me.

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Old
10-14-2013, 12:12 PM
  #240
galiano
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Where can I go to get current stats of our prospects ? This forum doesn't seem to be the place.

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Old
10-14-2013, 12:35 PM
  #241
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Each team website is up to date

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Old
10-14-2013, 12:36 PM
  #242
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Where can I go to get current stats of our prospects ? This forum doesn't seem to be the place.
hockeydb

If they're CHL players, the stats on the official OHL, WHL, etc websites are decent and let you break things down to the game by game.

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Old
10-14-2013, 12:40 PM
  #243
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QMJHL has the best stats since they now include SOG. I don't know why the OHL and the WHL don't. Frustrating.

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Old
10-14-2013, 12:48 PM
  #244
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QMJHL has the best stats since they now include SOG. I don't know why the OHL and the WHL don't. Frustrating.
and faceoffs...ughhh

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Old
10-14-2013, 12:48 PM
  #245
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QMJHL has the best stats since they now include SOG. I don't know why the OHL and the WHL don't. Frustrating.
Q also has face off stats! OHL+WHL really are behind the times. We can only guess.

I just watched Horvat's last 3 games and i would not be surprised to see him over 70% on the dot. The announcers said, in the one prior to the ones I watched, Horvat went over 90%.

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Old
10-14-2013, 03:23 PM
  #246
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and faceoffs...ughhh
It's like they're still in the Stone Age when it comes to even simple stats like shots.

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Old
10-14-2013, 03:43 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
QMJHL has the best stats since they now include SOG. I don't know why the OHL and the WHL don't. Frustrating.
probably because those leagues are not actually employing counters to actually count the shots.

it's probably silly because I image most teams have people doing it for them but they just don't share it.

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Old
10-14-2013, 03:46 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by galiano View Post
Where can I go to get current stats of our prospects ? This forum doesn't seem to be the place.
Am I the only person who read this as an apt (if slightly misphrased) rhetorical question?

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Old
10-14-2013, 03:55 PM
  #249
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Am I the only person who read this as an apt (if slightly misphrased) rhetorical question?
I don't think it's apt.

There might be a few off topic posts on this page, but you really only have to go back two to three pages to find stats summaries of pretty much all of the main prospects.

If the poster is too lazy to do that, that's his/her own problem.

The updates have been quite good, IMO, and much appreciated.

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Old
10-14-2013, 03:56 PM
  #250
Taelin
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Am I the only person who read this as an apt (if slightly misphrased) rhetorical question?
Same, since there was a whole bunch of armchair GMing going on when this was posted.

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