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Arron Asham and Martin Biron (10/20: Biron announces his retirement on Twitter)

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10-14-2013, 07:07 PM
  #251
Rust Heisenberg
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Also, again, I've been preaching about how Vigneault is a speed and possession kind of coach. Pyatt, Boyle, Dorsett, Pouloit, Asham... they don't fit this. Too many players under this mold are killing the system he's trying to play.

Asham was first domino. Next up is one of Pyatt, Boyle, or Pouloit.

When all is said and done, wouldn't be surprised with a starting line up of:

Hagelin-Stepan-Nash
Richards-Brassard-Zuccarello
Callahan-Miller-Kreider
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett

Need speed. Not size.

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10-14-2013, 07:14 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Different scenario. McDonagh played almost 40 games in the AHL before he was called up. Miller played the first game of the season in the NHL, played 3 games in the AHL, and now he is being called up again. I have a hard time believing that those 3 games made such a difference in his development that he is more ready now than he was two weeks ago. If Miller ends up playing on the 4th line, I would much prefer Powe or Haley playing there instead as they are better suited for that role.
Miller isn't a first year pro. Plus, Hagelin came up and started on the 3rd line. HE made himself valuable higher in the lineup. It's on Miller to do the same.

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10-14-2013, 07:16 PM
  #253
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JT Miller belongs at center. Bring him up and put him in the middle. Not on the wing. Play him or let him play in the AHL.

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10-14-2013, 07:17 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Kreider should be up.

Miller seems definite in terms of remaining in the team's future. Bringing up Kreider does several things.

1) Nash and Asham are the ones that are sent down. Two wingers. Miller, while he can play wing, is better off learning to be a center. Kreider is a wing.

2) Kreider being called up lets us see if he's gained some confidence back. He was slotted to be with the team from the get go. You want to see maturity and growth. What better time to let him loose and see if he's cut out for this team than when we're in a 1-4 hole?

3) Kreider isn't guaranteed to be a part of this team's future. You need to showcase him at the very worst case scenario. If he has no spot on the team and management knows this they'd be better off showcasing him than developing him. Maybe they can do a Zibinedjad/Kreider swap? Maybe something else evolves. Point is you can't shut that possibility out just cause you favor one prospect over the other.

4) You can't just call Miller up any time a forward spot is available. Develop him at a certain position. Wing is a need right now. Miller should be a C. Call up a damn wing. People don't get this concept. He's developing, do they really want to screw with that development?

I mentioned that Kreider should be up over Miller. My guess is that AV liked what he saw from Miller in pre-season. AV has no history with Kreider. All he saw was a player that, for the most part, was a no show in pre-season, when a spot was there for the taking.

What I don't like from AV, is that he had Miller on the 4th line and not at center.

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10-14-2013, 07:19 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Also, again, I've been preaching about how Vigneault is a speed and possession kind of coach. Pyatt, Boyle, Dorsett, Pouloit, Asham... they don't fit this. Too many players under this mold are killing the system he's trying to play.

Asham was first domino. Next up is one of Pyatt, Boyle, or Pouloit.

When all is said and done, wouldn't be surprised with a starting line up of:

Hagelin-Stepan-Nash
Richards-Brassard-Zuccarello
Callahan-Miller-Kreider
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett

Need speed. Not size.
Pouliot and Dorsett are both very fast....

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Old
10-14-2013, 07:24 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
I mentioned that Kreider should be up over Miller. My guess is that AV liked what he saw from Miller in pre-season. AV has no history with Kreider. All he saw was a player that, for the most part, was a no show in pre-season, when a spot was there for the taking.

What I don't like from AV, is that he had Miller on the 4th line and not at center.

Krieder did have a bad preseason BUT he has really picked it up in hartford. Many who have watched the games have said kreider was the most consistent forward. I expect both miller and kreider to be up by the end of the month

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10-14-2013, 07:27 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
I mentioned that Kreider should be up over Miller. My guess is that AV liked what he saw from Miller in pre-season. AV has no history with Kreider. All he saw was a player that, for the most part, was a no show in pre-season, when a spot was there for the taking.

What I don't like from AV, is that he had Miller on the 4th line and not at center.
AV has no history with either player. I knew Miller would be more to AV's liking. Why? Miller is Kessler lite. Similar mold, similar skill set, similar ceiling.

Think is AV didn't put Kreider on a line to succeed. Richards + Nash isn't a line Kreider would succeed on. Stepan or Miller need to be the center - decisive center with defensive responsibility. That allows Kreider to play North-South, where he's effective.

Torts didn't understand this with any one player, not just Kreider. Torts wanted defensive accountability over any other skillset. That means players weren't allowed to let themselves get too far ahead of a play or they'd let down the hole unit defensively in the case of a turnover or what not. North-South players were affected badly in this system... that limits how north they can actually go.

On the other hand, AV likes north-south. Kreider would/will flourish if given the chance on an appropriate line. Richards isn't the center to optimize a north-south player. He's more east-west. He has the capability to stretch the ice out with a blue line to blue line pass but he tends to carry the puck and skate from circle to circle down the ice. Nash is almost the definition of an east-west player. Neither were going to make Kreider look good. They carry the puck, their decisions revolve around holding the puck, not stretching the ice. Both look for line mates to adapt to what they do with the puck. Kreider needs someone who adapts to him (i.e. quick decision to throw puck down ice when he breaks).

If/when Kreider is called up he needs to be on a line with Stepan or Miller for him to succeed. It's not about taking the opportunity at hand, it's about AV understanding his player.

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10-14-2013, 07:31 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
Pouliot and Dorsett are both very fast....
Can they control the puck well? Do they make good decisions with the puck?

No and no. AV needs all 3. Ample speed, quick decision making, decent puck control.

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10-14-2013, 07:33 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Can they control the puck well? Do they make good decisions with the puck?

No and no. AV needs all 3. Ample speed, quick decision making, decent puck control.
Pouliout has some pretty decent hands. Brain....ehhh

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10-14-2013, 07:38 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Pouliout has some pretty decent hands. Brain....ehhh
Now watched him have 3-5 chances to score a goal if he shelves the puck. Each time he's been stoned by shooting at the pads. Split second reaction.

He puts himself in good position, goes to right spot on ice, can't finish.

Team gets positive momentum through neutral zone. Make series of great cross ice passes to enter zone. Defense is reeling. Pouloit gets the puck - proceeds to dump it behind the net.

Can't finish. Can't create.

He should be a spare.

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10-14-2013, 07:46 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Can they control the puck well? Do they make good decisions with the puck?

No and no. AV needs all 3. Ample speed, quick decision making, decent puck control.
They both control the puck well, and they aren't detrimental with their decision making. Dorsett will often get the puck to the net in some fashion, Pouliot can be a "deke through everyone" guy or a giveaway, he's a mixed bag. Dorsett's skill set is pretty spectacular for a guy who's a 4th liner.

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Old
10-14-2013, 07:59 PM
  #262
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I understand biron has been playing bad but waiving him is a tad ridiculous.
In a normal season yes.. but an olympic year Hank needs a guy to come in be competent. Biron has been brutal in his first 2 appearances. Hank's only day off this season he had to come in. Now is Talbot going to be any better? Maybe Maybe not, but Biron is toast imo.

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10-14-2013, 08:01 PM
  #263
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Wonder when Talbot will actually start with all of the days off they have now, maybe Halloween vs Buffalo?

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10-14-2013, 08:04 PM
  #264
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One thing I am sure of is that the leash will be short, as NYR will not be patient with Talbot if he falters.

NYR have tried to get backups in the past, they put name in for CuJo one year and traded for Alex Auld another. If Talbot has 2-3 bad games, I could see us making a move for someone more proven. He will have a lot of pressure to perform here.

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10-14-2013, 08:07 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Miller isn't a first year pro. Plus, Hagelin came up and started on the 3rd line. HE made himself valuable higher in the lineup. It's on Miller to do the same.
You're right, Miller is not a first year pro, but he is younger than both McDonagh and Hagelin were when they were called up and stuck with the team. I'd love it if Miller was able to do what Hagelin did in 2011 but I'm not expecting it nor will I hold it against him if he is incapable of doing so - Miller is 3 years younger than Hagelin was when he was called up and he is more raw IMO.

Regardless of age and whatnot, I'm just not thrilled that his development in Hartford was interrupted after playing only 3 games there.

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10-14-2013, 08:08 PM
  #266
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Used to defend Biron but with his poor play for most of last season and early this year, I can't complain.

I'm not convinced Talbot is better, or even as good, however.

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10-14-2013, 08:09 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by snipeit View Post
Two guys I like, or liked...
Exactly. Nice to see AV scapegoated those 2 players when he had others to chose from.

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10-14-2013, 08:09 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by 17futurecap View Post
Wonder when Talbot will actually start with all of the days off they have now, maybe Halloween vs Buffalo?
Wouldnt it have made sense then to wait to make that move?

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10-14-2013, 08:11 PM
  #269
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Exactly. Nice to see AV scapegoated those 2 players when he had others to chose from.
Asham was always at Risk to go down, this was talked about well before the season started. Biron played himself out of the backup job. Talbot played well in preseason and they gave the vet the benefit of the doubt. Then he still was crap in the regular season. Marty's a good dude but he's done.

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10-14-2013, 08:14 PM
  #270
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Exactly. Nice to see AV scapegoated those 2 players when he had others to chose from.
its much easier to send a message to the team by demoting a well liked, however less integral part of the team than benching our top players who haven'd played well but who we will have no success without.

unless miller and/or kreider are going to play top 6 minutes id rather bring up a guy like hrivik, lindberg, kristo, or jean to see what they can do in the big show, but with limited minutes.

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10-14-2013, 08:22 PM
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetch66 View Post
IMO...that is wrong...signing him to that last contract was the ridiculous part .
We know the guy can play at a high level. the contract he has is absurdly cheap. Neither him nor lundqvist have played good so far this season. waiving him is just a mistake IMO.

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10-14-2013, 08:22 PM
  #272
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its much easier to send a message to the team by demoting a well liked, however less integral part of the team than benching our top players who haven'd played well but who we will have no success without.
The message isn't just that.

These 2 are the team's oldest vets, pretty much. Most experience. Biron is beloved on the team. Ash is respected and regarded around the league.

In place - Talbot and *probably* Miller or Kreider. AV is saying pick your **** up or it doesn't matter how experienced and beloved you are you'll be sent down without even the courtesy of a notice before practice.

They aren't scapegoated. They were made an example of. AV isn't blaming them for their troubles. On most teams there are players that are on the line up for respect and experience purposes. Players that don't necessarily deserve it but the coaching staff keeps to mentor the young, or be good influences on the locker room, or in some hope that their experience comes up when the team needs it the most. Both Ash and Biron could have been held on for those reasons alone while others were cut... Think this is a double edged sword - fear of being cut if you're one of the players and guilt for getting 2 respected vets on your team cut because you didn't start the season off well.

Well played coaching staff. If players don't respond to this, the next rd of cuts will be players that are more noticeably negatively affecting the team results.

That being said, Biron was not doing well these last few years. The team rallied around him - seemed like he'd usually get more scoring support than Hank. He got 1 shot this year before being cut. His play deserved for him to be cut years ago. Again, team held on to him for respect and locker room effect. Losing that will create guilt in a lot of the guys for letting him down. He might retire now.

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Old
10-14-2013, 08:23 PM
  #273
frankthefrowner
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Originally Posted by FromTheSide View Post
We know the guy can play at a high level. the contract he has is absurdly cheap. Neither him nor lundqvist have played good so far this season. waiving him is just a mistake IMO.
Marty Biron? High Level? hes a cheap backup goalie who has been terrible. You are getting up in arms about nothing.

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10-14-2013, 08:26 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
The message isn't just that.

These 2 are the team's oldest vets, pretty much. Most experience. Biron is beloved on the team. Ash is respected and regarded around the league.

In place - Talbot and *probably* Miller or Kreider. AV is saying pick your **** up or it doesn't matter how experienced and beloved you are you'll be sent down without even the courtesy of a notice before practice.

They aren't scapegoated. They were made an example of. AV isn't blaming them for their troubles. On most teams there are players that are on the line up for respect and experience purposes. Players that don't necessarily deserve it but the coaching staff keeps to mentor the young, or be good influences on the locker room, or in some hope that their experience comes up when the team needs it the most. Both Ash and Biron could have been held on for those reasons alone while others were cut... Think this is a double edged sword - fear of being cut if you're one of the players and guilt for getting 2 respected vets on your team cut because you didn't start the season off well.

Well played coaching staff. If players don't respond to this, the next rd of cuts will be players that are more noticeably negatively affecting the team results.

That being said, Biron was not doing well these last few years. The team rallied around him - seemed like he'd usually get more scoring support than Hank. He got 1 shot this year before being cut. His play deserved for him to be cut years ago. Again, team held on to him for respect and locker room effect. Losing that will create guilt in a lot of the guys for letting him down. He might retire now.
I disagree with the message sending aspect of it... Asham was always going to be sent down in peoples eyes.. Him and Powe were going to bite the dust at some point. Biron played him self off the team. HE SUCKS! Most years its whatever, but Hank needs rest because of team sweden.

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10-14-2013, 08:26 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankthefrowner View Post
Marty Biron? High Level? hes a cheap backup goalie who has been terrible. You are getting up in arms about nothing.
Up in arms?
Yeah i'm foaming at the mouth.

You are the delusional one if you don't think Biron has the ability to play at a high level. He's had dozens of quality games on this team. Lynching him for a few bad games when the entire team minus richards is playing like **** isn't a good evaluation.

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