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Fire AV, Fire Sather. This is a bad hockey team.

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10-15-2013, 07:45 AM
  #376
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I have to disagree with you folks that say we have ridiculous talent. Yes Lundqvist, but tell me whose talent level is ridiculous among our forwards. Rick Nash? Our best forward. Is he a top 15 winger in the league? Brad Richards is our top left winger? This is one of the least talented group of forwards I can remember.

For this team to succeed, AV will need a miracle.
agreed.

When you can't string 2-3 passes together there is a real lack of talent.

Guys are passing into other guys feet, leading them to far, putting it behind them. That's not talent.

The the flip side is that when a good pass is made, we are having issues accepting the pass.

Brassard has talent, Nash has talent, Stepan has talent. Richards talent is fading (regardless of the start), Callahan to a much lesser degree

Callahan is a hard working player that gets things done that way. He doesn't have finesse type talent.

Zuccs, for all the love he gets, doesn't reallty get anything done. He's not a hack like the guys below, but I also wouldn't put him in the above group either.

Other than that we are very talentless.

Talentless hacks:

Pyatt - Boyle - Moore - Dorsett - Asham - Pouliot

And on top of the fact that we are limited in talent, we are very limited in heart, desire and physicality which really puts the team behind the 8 ball.

You can make up for a slight lack of talent by out working your opponent, but that takes heart, desire and physicality and we lack THAT more than we lack talent.

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10-15-2013, 07:46 AM
  #377
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I'm a strong believer in pushing young players to succeed and support bringing Kreider and Miller up ASAP.

But that means certain things:

They must be put into situations where they can use their skill set to the maximum. You can't put Fast with Boyle and Pyatt and expect anything to happen, for example.

Pushing them into the lineup can't be for a few shifts here and there for only a few minutes a night. They must be given a chance to play regularly for an extended period of time, perhaps 10 games.

They must be given the confidence, by the coaching staff, to know that if they make some glaring mistake or have a bad game, they will be put right back on the ice the next shift or the next game. You can only grow if you have the freedom to make mistakes and learn from them.

After 10 games or so if the evaluation is that they need more developmental time, you send them down. That also will reveal a lot about a player: does he go down determined to come back? Does he go down and internalize the lessons learned and work to improve on his game? Does he sulk, blame others, and retrogress?

Some of the vets on this team right now are on extended looksees. There is a good chance that by December most of our young players will be here. Play them and let's get a handle on what we have and need to do in the future.

Right now we are treading water.

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10-15-2013, 08:03 AM
  #378
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I'm a strong believer in pushing young players to succeed and support bringing Kreider and Miller up ASAP.

But that means certain things:

They must be put into situations where they can use their skill set to the maximum. You can't put Fast with Boyle and Pyatt and expect anything to happen, for example.

Pushing them into the lineup can't be for a few shifts here and there for only a few minutes a night. They must be given a chance to play regularly for an extended period of time, perhaps 10 games.

They must be given the confidence, by the coaching staff, to know that if they make some glaring mistake or have a bad game, they will be put right back on the ice the next shift or the next game. You can only grow if you have the freedom to make mistakes and learn from them.

After 10 games or so if the evaluation is that they need more developmental time, you send them down. That also will reveal a lot about a player: does he go down determined to come back? Does he go down and internalize the lessons learned and work to improve on his game? Does he sulk, blame others, and retrogress?

Some of the vets on this team right now are on extended looksees. There is a good chance that by December most of our young players will be here. Play them and let's get a handle on what we have and need to do in the future.

Right now we are treading water.
Agreed.

Lets bring the guys up that have a long term future here.

Guys like Pyatt, Pouliot, Boyle, Moore and Dorsett do not have long term futures in NY.

We changed the system, now we need to change the personel.

bring the kids up.

Haley, Miller, Kreider, Lindberg and Hrivk, bring them all up and let them get after the game.

Can't be any worse that what we have been dealing with.

Plus, I am not a believer in Gernander...at all.

Personally thought we should have ****-canned him a long time ago.

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10-15-2013, 08:07 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Agreed.

Lets bring the guys up that have a long term future here.

Guys like Pyatt, Pouliot, Boyle, Moore and Dorsett do not have long term futures in NY.

We changed the system, now we need to change the personel.

bring the kids up.

Haley, Miller, Kreider, Lindberg and Hrivk, bring them all up and let them get after the game.

Can't be any worse that what we have been dealing with.

Plus, I am not a believer in Gernander...at all.

Personally thought we should have ****-canned him a long time ago.
Dorsett has no future in NY but Haley does? Huh?

Dorsett is an extremely useful player most teams would love to add and we all want to get rid of him?

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10-15-2013, 08:10 AM
  #380
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Dorsett has no future in NY but Haley does? Huh?

Dorsett is an extremely useful player most teams would love to add and we all want to get rid of him?
Dorsett might have that ability but he hasn't displayed it in any of the games he's played for this team so far. Only thing he's done consistently is get penalized. Hope he turns it around and learns to pick his spots better. If the refs are all over you then you have to tone it down a bit. I think he can be effective if he develops a better feel for how the game is going and how the refs are calling it. Basically, his situational awareness seems to need some work.

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10-15-2013, 08:15 AM
  #381
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Dorsett might have that ability but he hasn't displayed it in any of the games he's played for this team so far. Only thing he's done consistently is get penalized. Hope he turns it around and learns to pick his spots better. If the refs are all over you then you have to tone it down a bit. I think he can be effective if he develops a better feel for how the game is going and how the refs are calling it. Basically, his situational awareness seems to need some work.
Or he is just trying too hard to do everything himself.

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10-15-2013, 08:24 AM
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Or he is just trying too hard to do everything himself.
That could be it too! He's obviously trying, I'm not knocking the effort. I was just pointing out that players like him who are most effective find a way to do so without constantly being penalized, especially in games where it's clear the refs are all over you! If he can do that then I agree that he can be a good player for this team. The problem with him being the only guy on this team who plays that kind of game is that it probably adds pressure to do too much as you said and that's where players can get into trouble.


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10-15-2013, 08:29 AM
  #383
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It's not a bad hockey team. It's just a poorly assembled one, and that's been our biggest issue for many years now. The lineup is always too much of one thing, and not enough of many others. It seems as though Sather gets completely hung-up on something we lacked the season before, and goes hog-wild to fix it, often at the expense of the rest of the lineup. One year it's toughness, then it's depth, then it's scoring, then it starts all over again.

The other part is that the Rangers are developing a quality group of prospects, but now they're at a point where having those kids come in and play big roles is a necessity, instead of a 'good problem to have' as it ought to be. It's times like this where you start to see teams ruin good prospects. They force them into roles because they convince themselves they're ready. Not because they are, but because they need them to be. Kreider, Miller, Fast, Lindberg, Kristo and Hrivik. That group should be spending the next 40 games shredding the AHL, not being shuttled back and forth between the big club and the Pack.

It's all a result of this organization having no direction. They say they want to compete, but can't save themselves from overhauling the team every summer. There's no team identity. There's little chemistry. The team is always made up of mercenaries. This team is better than it's shown so far, but I question how far it can ultimately go. The elephant in the room is the fact that few of these players are under contract. If the team can't get it together, how many of them are going to want to stick around?

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10-15-2013, 08:38 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
It's not a bad hockey team. It's just a poorly assembled one, and that's been our biggest issue for many years now. The lineup is always too much of one thing, and not enough of many others. It seems as though Sather gets completely hung-up on something we lacked the season before, and goes hog-wild to fix it, often at the expense of the rest of the lineup. One year it's toughness, then it's depth, then it's scoring, then it starts all over again.

The other part is that the Rangers are developing a quality group of prospects, but now they're at a point where having those kids come in and play big roles is a necessity, instead of a 'good problem to have' as it ought to be. It's times like this where you start to see teams ruin good prospects. They force them into roles because they convince themselves they're ready. Not because they are, but because they need them to be. Kreider, Miller, Fast, Lindberg, Kristo and Hrivik. That group should be spending the next 40 games shredding the AHL, not being shuttled back and forth between the big club and the Pack.

It's all a result of this organization having no direction. They say they want to compete, but can't save themselves from overhauling the team every summer. There's no team identity. There's little chemistry. The team is always made up of mercenaries. This team is better than it's shown so far, but I question how far it can ultimately go. The elephant in the room is the fact that few of these players are under contract. If the team can't get it together, how many of them are going to want to stick around?
Good synopsis. The fact that 75% of the team is without a contract next year is a scary proposition. What if this poor play continues to near the trade deadline? What does the team do then? Common sense says make some shrewd trades and start this thing over - the right way.

Is Sather going to be willing to do that? He hasnt shown the willingness to do it in 13 years. I doubt he lets a rebuild be his parting shot to the organization. He has too much pride for that. My point is, this team is coming to a crossroads very quickly. Theres no better time to change the leadership than very, very soon. If Sather stays on and is allowed to deal with the question marks going into next year and beyond, we're doomed for even longer.

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10-15-2013, 08:47 AM
  #385
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Good synopsis. The fact that 75% of the team is without a contract next year is a scary proposition. What if this poor play continues to near the trade deadline? What does the team do then? Common sense says make some shrewd trades and start this thing over - the right way.

Is Sather going to be willing to do that? He hasnt shown the willingness to do it in 13 years. I doubt he lets a rebuild be his parting shot to the organization. He has too much pride for that. My point is, this team is coming to a crossroads very quickly. Theres no better time to change the leadership than very, very soon. If Sather stays on and is allowed to deal with the question marks going into next year and beyond, we're doomed for even longer.
I freaking hope so. Deal away some of the older pieces who they don't want to re-sign and let some of the young players play, or, do what Doug Wilson did. Trade Clowe for (2) 2nd's and trade for Torres with a 3rd. He fit the mold of what they wanted to do much more and they were able to recoup some assets. Why can this organization not do something like that?

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10-15-2013, 08:48 AM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
It's not a bad hockey team. It's just a poorly assembled one, and that's been our biggest issue for many years now. The lineup is always too much of one thing, and not enough of many others. It seems as though Sather gets completely hung-up on something we lacked the season before, and goes hog-wild to fix it, often at the expense of the rest of the lineup. One year it's toughness, then it's depth, then it's scoring, then it starts all over again.

The other part is that the Rangers are developing a quality group of prospects, but now they're at a point where having those kids come in and play big roles is a necessity, instead of a 'good problem to have' as it ought to be. It's times like this where you start to see teams ruin good prospects. They force them into roles because they convince themselves they're ready. Not because they are, but because they need them to be. Kreider, Miller, Fast, Lindberg, Kristo and Hrivik. That group should be spending the next 40 games shredding the AHL, not being shuttled back and forth between the big club and the Pack.

It's all a result of this organization having no direction. They say they want to compete, but can't save themselves from overhauling the team every summer. There's no team identity. There's little chemistry. The team is always made up of mercenaries. This team is better than it's shown so far, but I question how far it can ultimately go. The elephant in the room is the fact that few of these players are under contract. If the team can't get it together, how many of them are going to want to stick around?
Bravo. Especially RE prospect development. There are a lot of posts saying to play the kids because "they can't be any worse." Putting aside that that is not even necessarily true, that is not how a successful franchise should view playing their young players. The focus should be on - what is going to net the best results long term? Hell even mid-term - end of this season / early next season. Getting shuttled back and forth, being told "you're ready...no wait you're not", not getting even enough practice time to establish chemistry with your teammates, etc is just not in the long term interest of these prospects. I don't believe that.

If we had a solid core a la, for example, SJ, that needed an energy/motivation boost - fine. If Miller, Kreider, etc was expected to come up and ride shotgun for a line that could fundamentally play hockey - ya know complete a pass, break out, forecheck - fine. That isn't the case here because the team is lacking 1. talent 2. an identity and 3. any signs of mental strength.

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10-15-2013, 08:49 AM
  #387
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I freaking hope so. Deal away some of the older pieces who they don't want to re-sign and let some of the young players play, or, do what Doug Wilson did. Trade Clowe for (2) 2nd's and trade for Torres with a 3rd. He fit the mold of what they wanted to do much more and they were able to recoup some assets. Why can this organization not do something like that?
Glen Sather and because hockey is different here! I would laugh but it's not even funny anymore.

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10-15-2013, 08:51 AM
  #388
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I freaking hope so. Deal away some of the older pieces who they don't want to re-sign and let some of the young players play, or, do what Doug Wilson did. Trade Clowe for (2) 2nd's and trade for Torres with a 3rd. He fit the mold of what they wanted to do much more and they were able to recoup some assets. Why can this organization not do something like that?
We will likely be buyers at the deadline, like we always are.

The organization doesn't have the balls or the fore-site to recoup assets before potentially losing or overpaying a guy in free agency.

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10-15-2013, 08:57 AM
  #389
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We will likely be buyers at the deadline, like we always are.

The organization doesn't have the balls or the fore-site to recoup assets before potentially losing or overpaying a guy in free agency.
My biggest fear is Sather not moving them for assets and then giving us some BS about how they wanted too much money or years and letting them walk for nothing in July. The man runs on ego and greed at this point! The only times he seems to speak are to cover his own ass or to throw others under the bus.

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10-15-2013, 08:58 AM
  #390
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We will likely be buyers at the deadline, like we always are.

The organization doesn't have the balls or the fore-site to recoup assets before potentially losing or overpaying a guy in free agency.
This is one more thing that just pisses me off to no end with this organization.

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10-15-2013, 08:59 AM
  #391
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My biggest fear is Sather not moving them for assets and then giving us some BS about how they wanted too much money or years and letting them walk for nothing in July. The man runs on ego and greed at this point! The only time he seems to speak is to cover his own ass or to throw others under the bus.
I have a feeling this will happen with both Callahan and Girardi.

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10-15-2013, 09:03 AM
  #392
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We will likely be buyers at the deadline, like we always are.

The organization doesn't have the balls or the fore-site to recoup assets before potentially losing or overpaying a guy in free agency.
They've gone back to their bad habits of tossing in draft picks. The Clowe trade and the way it was structured was so stupid and short-sighted. To lose a 2nd when you don't have a first is criminal in a salary cap world. To add a clause that punishes you for signing your own UFA is equally dumb.

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10-15-2013, 09:04 AM
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I have a feeling this will happen with both Callahan and Girardi.
Wouldn't surprise me at all! I'll be keeping my eyes open for the Brooks article where Sather tries to publicly shame them into contracts probably around a week or so prior to free agency starting!

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10-15-2013, 09:07 AM
  #394
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They've gone back to their bad habits of tossing in draft picks. The Clowe trade and the way it was structured was so stupid and short-sighted. To lose a 2nd when you don't have a first is criminal in a salary cap world. To add a clause that punishes you for signing your own UFA is equally dumb.
Agreed.

The best teams, in any sports, are like hawks when it comes to their asset management. They make sure they avoid stupid, short-sited moves like the Clowe one. They also have a culture and directions in place that is not heavily effected by changing personnel. You come to that team, and you know what is expected from you from the get go.

In the NHL, while they may have lost it over the past few years due to financial and other issues, the Devils had that type of system in place for a long time -- I'd say it served them well in the mid 90's - mid 2000's.

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10-15-2013, 09:20 AM
  #395
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It's the lack of culture that is really holding this team/organization back. If they really want to be an up-tempo team like Sather says he wants them to be (you know, the reason why Torts was fired), then you need to fill the roster with guys who can play like that.

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10-15-2013, 09:22 AM
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In the NHL, while they may have lost it over the past few years due to financial and other issues, the Devils had that type of system in place for a long time -- I'd say it served them well in the mid 90's - mid 2000's.
The Devils have certainly been weaker in the draft then they have been. But they have lost a ton of talent over the last decade. And it shows in that they have had to overpay to keep good, not great, players like Henrique and Zajac. But even they have a philosophy and the Schneider trade showed that.

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10-15-2013, 09:22 AM
  #397
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Good synopsis. The fact that 75% of the team is without a contract next year is a scary proposition. What if this poor play continues to near the trade deadline? What does the team do then? Common sense says make some shrewd trades and start this thing over - the right way.

Is Sather going to be willing to do that? He hasnt shown the willingness to do it in 13 years. I doubt he lets a rebuild be his parting shot to the organization. He has too much pride for that. My point is, this team is coming to a crossroads very quickly. Theres no better time to change the leadership than very, very soon. If Sather stays on and is allowed to deal with the question marks going into next year and beyond, we're doomed for even longer.
I don't think he has the stones to do it. He's old and he's on his way out the door whether he wants to admit it or not, but he wants to win a Cup before he retires. Otherwise his tenure with the Rangers is guaranteed to be a giant black mark on his legacy. The irony is that this team is in an extremely advantageous position if they wanted to "retool" and compete sooner rather than later. This team has a group of young players you could easily build around, and coupled with the prospects who should be ready in the next two years, plus whatever you could recoup via trade, you could probably be pretty close to where we are right now, if not better, within the next two seasons.

I'm certainly not championing a rebuild just yet, but if we're in the dumps come trade deadline, I'll probably pick up a 'blow it up' banner. I love Hank, Cally, Danny G, etc, but those three guys alone could get you a king's ransom at the deadline. Regardless, I'm sure the team will believe they're a shakeup away from going 15-4 down the stretch and will deal for a bunch of "character guys" at the deadline.

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10-15-2013, 09:25 AM
  #398
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The Rangers will either stand pat or be buyers at the deadline as usual.

A last ditch effort to make the playoffs is more important to Sather than acquiring assets for expiring contracts. Case in point, 2010 - the Rangers could have traded Prospal at the deadline, he was having a solid season and may have netted a 2nd at the least. The frustrating thing about this season is that there are so many expiring contracts, and you know all of them won't be retained. I have a sinking suspicion we will see a lot of these players walk away for nothing.

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10-15-2013, 09:28 AM
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The Rangers will either stand pat or be buyers at the deadline as usual.

A last ditch effort to make the playoffs is more important to Sather than acquiring assets for expiring contracts. Case in point, 2010 - the Rangers could have traded Prospal at the deadline, he was having a solid season and may have netted a 2nd at the least. The frustrating thing about this season is that there are so many expiring contracts, and you know all of them won't be retained. I have a sinking suspicion we will see a lot of these players walk away for nothing.
I was on the trade Prospal boat that year. I was repeatedly hit with "You don't trade assets when you're in a playoff spot!!!" I think we were tied for 8th or something at the time.

I complain about Sather's management incessantly, but truth be told, it permeates from what a lot of fans convey -- the need for immediate satisfaction at the expense of long-term sanity.

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10-15-2013, 09:34 AM
  #400
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I was on the trade Prospal boat that year. I was repeatedly hit with "You don't trade assets when you're in a playoff spot!!!" I think we were tied for 8th or something at the time.

I complain about Sather's management incessantly, but truth be told, it permeates from what a lot of fans convey -- the need for immediate satisfaction at the expense of long-term sanity.
I wanted to trade Jagr the year before he walked. I would trade both Callahan and Girardi if they didn't re-sign by the deadline. Stralman, Pouliot, Pyatt, Boyle, Moore all would be available for the right price at the deadline.

Losing assets for nothing is a great way to run an organization into the ground.

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