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Old
10-16-2013, 04:05 AM
  #76
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You guys are mad at Vigneault for saying certain players need to start producing?

Quote:
But coach Alain Vigneault sure sent an implied message to top six wingers Benoit Pouliot and Mats Zuccarello — and by extension, the rest of the group — when he met with the press after Tuesday’s practice.
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If the Rangers aren’t good enough again on Wednesday, the changes that began with the exchange of Asham and Biron for Miller and Talbot likely will be only the beginning.
http://nypost.com/2013/10/15/vigneau...ep-struggling/

Zuccarello is third in minutes for the forwards. People on this board have some weird affection with Zuccarello. Its the same thing with Vinny Propspal. They wanted Zuccarello to get $1.5M-$1.7M per. The Rangers got Zuccarello at a shade above $1M. It makes them easier to assign him to the AHL. $925,000.

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10-16-2013, 05:00 AM
  #77
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I like Zuccarello simply because he's been behind some of our most effective and creative plays, both on the PP and 5 on 5. He's orchestrated a lot of scoring chances, and though he's not personally capitalizing on them we really don't have much else going on. We latch onto what positive we can. Richards seemingly back to his 2 year ago self, Zuccarello's creativity... and there ain't much more to like right now.

This message doesn't do much and inspires nothing in me as a fan either. I'm not saying it shouldn't be said, just that it's irrelevant. There's no one to replace these guys. This won't save the season or make us more dangerous. If these guys don't produce soon it becomes fairly easy to assume the season is a bust. Playoffs will be unlikely at that point. We can move them down to the AHL all we want, but we won't go further with kids who aren't ready. Sideways move.

Though at that point I'd rather see kids get NHL experience since we'll be needing as many of them to succeed as possible during the inevitable rebuild, or at least rekindle, if this year is a dramatic bust. But hey, maybe a message will be received and they'll all magically find their groove and adapt to the system. It'd be fantastic.

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10-16-2013, 05:02 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Grim all-around.

I really was routing for Zucc. I hope he can finally put all this effort to showing up on the scoreboard.

He hasn't looked as bad or useless as some other players, but he does definitely need to start contributing.

I hope Del Zotto was put on trade notice. "Stop shooting wide and handling the puck like a grenade or we'll trade you!"
Yeah me too, but he -- if anyone -- gotta produce. To a bigger extent, I think Pyatt and Pouliot are what they are, guys who might be able to fill but you get what you pay for.

But while Zucc again has some decent games, he gotta score goals and assist goals.

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10-16-2013, 05:48 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
He said produce not pulse.....he didn't mention a lack of effort only in the SJ game.
OK but produce doesn't necessarily have to mean points-wise. Obviously for Zucc and Pouliot yeah because their skills are in their offense but I'm sure he's expecting Pyatt to produce in other ways.

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10-16-2013, 06:20 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Lots of negative adjectives in this post trying to mask the complete lack of analysis and countervailing argument.

I beg to differ.

Although I respect what you have to say, I reject it totally. Although you may raise some cogent points, I think that your viewpoint is absolutely incorrect and your analysis shallow and not well thought out.

Is AV the man for the job? Honestly, I don't know. Time will tell.

But to put this all on him after only 5 games is just absurd. To believe that he is showing panic only 5 games into a 5 year contract is a total misreading of the situation.

Certainly there are many negatives regarding this team right now. But, as Tawnos said earlier in this thread, teams are never as bad as they appear when they are on a losing streak or as good as they seem when they are on a winning streak.

Things will get better, how much remains to be seen.

As an experienced and successful coach hired for those very qualities, he has the right to make the team over in his image. That will take time. Whether that will bring success is not known. AV will handle poor play in his own way: I certainly didn't like the way that Torts did it. Whether I like AV's way remains to be seen. I don't know him well enough yet.

If anyone is to blame here, it is Sather. Perhaps some poor player decisions but more so in allowing Torts to become out of control and, in many ways become larger than the team. It is going to take time to undo that damage. I'm one to give Torts credit for building a team identity, but it got out of hand.

It has nothing to do with Sather's age. There are terrible young GMs, and good older ones. Sather is just a bad GM, period.

The bottom line is that AV needs time to mold this team. Right now it is beyond bad. But it is not his fault.......yet. It might be in the future. We don't have enough information yet to judge him objectively. We need to see how he handles the ups and downs and the emotional roller coaster of a season....see how he handles a crisis....see how he handles underachieving players.

To blame him after 5 games shows a total lack of intelligent analysis. It smacks of an emotional response. I'm as upset with this team as anyone, as emotionally distraught by this team's play as anyone. It's terrible right now. Whether it still will be after AV has his way with it...only time will tell.

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10-16-2013, 06:24 AM
  #81
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Zuccarello is the master of having a good game and not putting up any points

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Old
10-16-2013, 06:37 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
This is turning into one of the most dumb threads ever.

If anyone thinks that AV is going to be fired, they are out of their minds. This is not a brand new coach like Trottier who was in over his head. This is a very successful, highly respected coach. We could lose 15 games in a row and he would not be fired. Nor should he.

The idea that someone of his stature is panicing is so ridiculous that it is hard to believe anyone would credit it.

Is he frustrated, angry, and as puzzled as the rest of us? Of course. But while all we can do is vent and complain, filling all of these threads with ideas about who should be playing, called up, released, traded, exiled to Siberia, or simply taken out and shot, it is only AV who can do something about it.

Like any coach he is going to put his stamp on this team. That means some guys who have been here might not be here for long. That might mean that players we like might not be AV guys.

We also are going to learn firsthand the kind of coach he is and how he handles the locker room and the behind scenes stuff. Renney had his way. Torts had his way. AV certainly has his way.

This team is underachieving. Whether it is systen, complacency, lack of confidence, lack of effort, lack of talent or the lack of what we need to succeed in todays NHL......only time will tell.

One thing it is not: it is not AVs fault. Lets see how he handles this mess and molds the team in his image.

Fire him? Give me a break. Is he panicing? That is an analysis beyond belief.
As the person who started the whole "Was Vigneault put on notice?" thing, I just want to clarify--I'm not advocating for him to be fired. That would be sheer lunacy.

Still, it is Glen Sather and it is the Rangers, so it wouldn't completely shock me if they brought Vigneault in for a meeting and said, "It's time to start getting some wins." No threats or overt mentions of his job being at risk, but kind of a read-between-the-lines, "Let's go..." kind of thing. It would be stupid to do this, which again makes me seriously wonder if it happened.

It's purely speculation from me. Not even speculation, really. Just throwing a question out there.

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10-16-2013, 06:54 AM
  #83
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Hi little baby girls, You cannot have ice cream for dinner. If you are going to cry, I'm going to send you to bed right now.

Good, now that we've got that out of the way, maybe some of you can start acting like long term fans who've lived through the real dark years of this franchise and not spoiled little children who cry and moan because winning a Cup is hard. Let me make this clear: this is not one of those really dark periods.

The drafting and organizational depth is better than at any time I can easily recall. Sather has not had a great deal to work with over the years as we've consistently finished in the middle or higher of the pack - there have been no multiple top 5 picks. He's not been afraid of trades, he's changed coaches, resisted the Messier allure, kept the cap under control.

There is no easy option to become great in this modern NHL.

Finally, FFS, gird your loins, clench your buttocks and man the **** up. It's 5 games into a new season with a new coach and a new system. Oh yeah, all those games have been on a West Coast road trip. This isn't a good result but it is absolutely not a disaster.

Let's talk after 20 games.

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10-16-2013, 08:12 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
Sather has not had a great deal to work with over the years as we've consistently finished in the middle or higher of the pack - there have been no multiple top 5 picks.
Sather apologist? You'll be winning the hearts and minds here I am sure.

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10-16-2013, 08:18 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by GFiP View Post
Zuccarello is the master of having a good game and not putting up any points
Zuccarello is incapable of having a good game if he isn't producing points. He doesnt do anything else particularly well.

This myth that he consistently generates scoring chances that his teammates don't finish is just that - a myth.

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10-16-2013, 08:21 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
Hi little baby girls, You cannot have ice cream for dinner. If you are going to cry, I'm going to send you to bed right now.

Good, now that we've got that out of the way, maybe some of you can start acting like long term fans who've lived through the real dark years of this franchise and not spoiled little children who cry and moan because winning a Cup is hard. Let me make this clear: this is not one of those really dark periods.

The drafting and organizational depth is better than at any time I can easily recall. Sather has not had a great deal to work with over the years as we've consistently finished in the middle or higher of the pack - there have been no multiple top 5 picks. He's not been afraid of trades, he's changed coaches, resisted the Messier allure, kept the cap under control.

There is no easy option to become great in this modern NHL.

Finally, FFS, gird your loins, clench your buttocks and man the **** up. It's 5 games into a new season with a new coach and a new system. Oh yeah, all those games have been on a West Coast road trip. This isn't a good result but it is absolutely not a disaster.

Let's talk after 20 games.
So Sather is a victim of Sather's own ineptitude. Go' it, Guv'ner.

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10-16-2013, 08:22 AM
  #87
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Zuccarello is the master of having a good game and not putting up any points
Yes, if only all unproductive players were as unproductive as Zuccarello.

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10-16-2013, 08:25 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Zuccarello is incapable of having a good game if he isn't producing points. He doesnt do anything else particularly well.

This myth that he consistently generates scoring chances that his teammates don't finish is just that - a myth.
I think he has some pest-like qualities. His best games were when he was involved physically. Unfortunately, that seems to come and go. Especially when he's feeling the pressure to score.

Like the guy as tertiary scoring in a lineup that is suited for it, but relying on him to play a top-six role is tough.

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10-16-2013, 08:27 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I think he has some pest-like qualities. His best games were when he was involved physically. Unfortunately, that seems to come and go. Especially when he's feeling the pressure to score.

Like the guy as tertiary scoring in a lineup that is suited for it, but relying on him to play a top-six role is tough.
Hes got the heart of a lion. I give him credit for making it this far considering hes so undersized. But if hes not holding a top 6 role/producing as such, is he a piece this team could use in the future?

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10-16-2013, 08:30 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Hes got the heart of a lion. I give him credit for making it this far considering hes so undersized. But if hes not holding a top 6 role/producing as such, is he a piece this team could use in the future?
I think he could be. I think he would work well with a couple of guys who are less skilled on the 3rd line who like to do the dirty work. He thrives with any sort of space which is easier to come by with guys who like to bang bodies.

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10-16-2013, 08:40 AM
  #91
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I like Zuccarello. He is very creative. No, he doesn't finish much, but he would cost a lot more if he did. Good spare part.

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10-16-2013, 08:43 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Black Tank View Post
Hi little baby girls, You cannot have ice cream for dinner. If you are going to cry, I'm going to send you to bed right now.

Good, now that we've got that out of the way, maybe some of you can start acting like long term fans who've lived through the real dark years of this franchise and not spoiled little children who cry and moan because winning a Cup is hard. Let me make this clear: this is not one of those really dark periods.

The drafting and organizational depth is better than at any time I can easily recall. Sather has not had a great deal to work with over the years as we've consistently finished in the middle or higher of the pack - there have been no multiple top 5 picks. He's not been afraid of trades, he's changed coaches, resisted the Messier allure, kept the cap under control.

There is no easy option to become great in this modern NHL.

Finally, FFS, gird your loins, clench your buttocks and man the **** up. It's 5 games into a new season with a new coach and a new system. Oh yeah, all those games have been on a West Coast road trip. This isn't a good result but it is absolutely not a disaster.

Let's talk after 20 games.
Just to note: my Ranger memories go back to 1958 and I've been a hardcore fan since about 1962. I've seen some dark, dark times and some horrific hockey.

All that time as a fan doesn't entitle me to say that I can better analyze situations better than younger fans, because it doesn't. I know some young fans on this board give first rate evaluations of the team.

What is does give me a sort of a longer view of things. I'm certainly upset with this team right now, probably even more so than my son (identity hidden) who is a regular poster here.

If a coach is totally incompetent, they should be fired and fired quickly, as was done with Trottier. Emile Francis was always quick to fire a coach who showed they were not ready (for older fans, remember Larry Popein?).

But nobody can say that AV is incompetent. I'm sure that there has been discussion between Sather and AV, but I doubt that it was anything to the extent of saying "you need to start winning now." Probably more like "we need to start winning now, what should we do about it? Sather is, after all, the GM who let Torts run amok, did not seem to make any effort (at least that we fans can see) to reign him in, and then felt the only solution was to fire him.

Dolan, for all his ineptitude, is not George Steinbrenner in his early days, firing managers on a whim. At least not with the Rangers.

AV has a long leash here. He is not Barry Melrose, fired after 10 games. If he tells Sather that there are major problems with this team that need to be addressed, does anyone think Sather will fire him?

The start of this season has been horrendous. But the way I look at it, the season really begins tonight. Though we are still playing on the road, we are essentially at home for practices and for players to settle into their home life routines. That absurd training camp schedule, probably the worst training camp schedule I have ever seen, is over. Our trip out west against some really strong teams, is over. Now we play our regular opponents.

Sounds like AV has gotten the team's attention. Let's hope they begin to respond. If not, more player changes will occur. AV is not going anywhere. As much as sometimes I think that the whole "system change" scenario is overblown, we need to give this team more time.

I don't think that this is an upper echelon team: to slow, to small, not physical enough, not talented enough at forward. But we are not as bad as we seem.

There might be a time when I come to dislike AV and come to the conclusion that he is not a good coach. But after 5 games? No way. Talk to me later in the season.

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10-16-2013, 08:45 AM
  #93
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Whats next if we still don't produce? Lundqvist, Girardi and Callahan go on notice?

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10-16-2013, 08:53 AM
  #94
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Hes got the heart of a lion. I give him credit for making it this far considering hes so undersized. But if hes not holding a top 6 role/producing as such, is he a piece this team could use in the future?
Really depends on how they want to configure the lineup. With a 3rd line that's set up as an energy line, he could be an offensive catalyst. With AV wanting a 3rd line for shutdown purposes, I don't see a fit.

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10-16-2013, 08:55 AM
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I think right now fans need to just make their expectations a little more reasonable.

The team is stuck in a hard place right now because with Nash and Hags out this team looks even more inept offensively then it already did with those two in the lineup. (on paper)

The other problem is this team is too small and not physical on the bottom two lines.

Just looking at the lineup, they look like a very middle of the pack team that will finish anywhere from 6th to 10th in the conference.

The bright spots for this team is that our defense and goaltending are top notch in my opinion (Even though they haven't looked like it so far)

This team for right now just needs to try and steady the ship a bit until Nash and Hags come back(which is hopefully sooner than later)


Also think that as the season progresses they should think about moving out Del Zotto or Girardi for an offensive punch... Not that I necessarily want to get rid of either, but its one of the only moves I think this team could reasonably do

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10-16-2013, 09:19 AM
  #96
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I think right now fans need to just make their expectations a little more reasonable.

I don't think asking the team to play hard and with some heart is expecting a lot at all.

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10-16-2013, 09:21 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
This is turning into one of the most dumb threads ever.

If anyone thinks that AV is going to be fired, they are out of their minds. This is not a brand new coach like Trottier who was in over his head. This is a very successful, highly respected coach. We could lose 15 games in a row and he would not be fired. Nor should he.

The idea that someone of his stature is panicing is so ridiculous that it is hard to believe anyone would credit it.

Is he frustrated, angry, and as puzzled as the rest of us? Of course. But while all we can do is vent and complain, filling all of these threads with ideas about who should be playing, called up, released, traded, exiled to Siberia, or simply taken out and shot, it is only AV who can do something about it.

Like any coach he is going to put his stamp on this team. That means some guys who have been here might not be here for long. That might mean that players we like might not be AV guys.

We also are going to learn firsthand the kind of coach he is and how he handles the locker room and the behind scenes stuff. Renney had his way. Torts had his way. AV certainly has his way.

This team is underachieving. Whether it is systen, complacency, lack of confidence, lack of effort, lack of talent or the lack of what we need to succeed in todays NHL......only time will tell.

One thing it is not: it is not AVs fault. Lets see how he handles this mess and molds the team in his image.

Fire him? Give me a break. Is he panicing? That is an analysis beyond belief.
I think this is quite possibly my favorite post of all time. Seriously.

All valid points, and extremely well said. Thank you.

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10-16-2013, 09:21 AM
  #98
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So Sather is a victim of Sather's own ineptitude. Go it, Guv'ner.
And this is perhaps my second favorite!

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10-16-2013, 09:31 AM
  #99
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I don't think asking the team to play hard and with some heart is expecting a lot at all.
To me, it looks more as if they are not sure where to go (in defensive zone coverage in particular)

They look like a team going through a transition in mindset and game-plan. It's purely conjecture on my part but they look like they don't know how to execute fluidly with the way AV wants to play because many players on this team still have a lot of the same manners and reactions to how they've had to play the past few years.

I'm not trying to make excuses, but this team as it is constructed is not a very physical team, not a very fast team, and not a team loaded with top end offensive talent.

And for whatever reason they were not prepared mentally for the start on the west coast, and in strange way I feel like coming back to the east coast is going to do a lot of GOOD for this team...... maybe not though, I could be wrong

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10-16-2013, 09:59 AM
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To me, it looks more as if they are not sure where to go (in defensive zone coverage in particular)

They look like a team going through a transition in mindset and game-plan. It's purely conjecture on my part but they look like they don't know how to execute fluidly with the way AV wants to play because many players on this team still have a lot of the same manners and reactions to how they've had to play the past few years.

I'm not trying to make excuses, but this team as it is constructed is not a very physical team, not a very fast team, and not a team loaded with top end offensive talent.

And for whatever reason they were not prepared mentally for the start on the west coast, and in strange way I feel like coming back to the east coast is going to do a lot of GOOD for this team...... maybe not though, I could be wrong
Yeah I see what you're saying. There are a few factors with turn overs out of the D-zone, starting with winning draws and set breakouts.

Frankly I believed that AV had it easy coming in to be able to do what Torts couldn't/wouldn't. Torts' idea of a stretch pass out the zone was to air it out and have Hagelin chase it down. With some practice time I think the team can get that together.

If AV can instill a little puck poise, and have a steady PP on top of what's been routine for the guys then I think the best of all worlds are at play.

As far as trading DZ or Girardi, if one of the kids from Hartford doesn't show the ability to play a top 6 role then the best way to fleece another team for one of theirs is trade a minute muncher on the backend. Which if not replaced, definitely means a losing a lot of games because the D can't match-up against other teams.

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