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If the Flyers lose to the Pens this Thursday and fall to 1-7.....

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Old
10-16-2013, 01:41 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I really dont get the Raffl complex people have, he hasnt shown me anything at all....ever.
You mean like completing passes, getting the puck deep and not turning it over every time he touches the puck ? More than most of the other can say.

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10-16-2013, 10:48 AM
  #27
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10-16-2013, 10:57 AM
  #28
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How come no one can ever just admit that this team ****ing sucks? It's not the coach, GM, Bryz, Richards, Carter, John Stevens... etc etc. All the Flyers have done the last several years is find scape goats as opposed to building a winning team. There is no one on the team right now who looks good. AT ALL. There isn't one guy I would call untouchable, including Giroux. I am not saying move him, or anyone, but the main purpose of this post is to touch on the idea that people seem stuck wearing orange tinted glasses and are incapable of simply admitting this team is abysmal. All around. Every position. Every player. It starts at the top, as well. The Flyers need a change of culture and that will only ever happen with a change of ownership.

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10-16-2013, 11:24 AM
  #29
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Every player is not abysmal. You might have just written the worst post on this entire forum.

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Old
10-16-2013, 11:31 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Orange Crush 89 View Post
How come no one can ever just admit that this team ****ing sucks? It's not the coach, GM, Bryz, Richards, Carter, John Stevens... etc etc. All the Flyers have done the last several years is find scape goats as opposed to building a winning team. There is no one on the team right now who looks good. AT ALL. There isn't one guy I would call untouchable, including Giroux. I am not saying move him, or anyone, but the main purpose of this post is to touch on the idea that people seem stuck wearing orange tinted glasses and are incapable of simply admitting this team is abysmal. All around. Every position. Every player. It starts at the top, as well. The Flyers need a change of culture and that will only ever happen with a change of ownership.

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10-16-2013, 11:37 AM
  #31
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Everybody looks bad right now. A lot can happen, but I do see things that are issues, and one of them is a scoring forward.

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Old
10-16-2013, 11:44 AM
  #32
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I'd like to see some of these under performers sit for a game, it obviously wont hurt us with the teams current trend.

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Old
10-16-2013, 12:29 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by flyersfan28 View Post
i think they need to trade
timonen for 1st
talbot for 2nd
hartnell for 2nd and prospect
grossman for 2nd

play the young
In what universe do those players get that return? Maybe 2-3 years ago but that isn't happening, as much as I'd love for it to.

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10-16-2013, 12:38 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by AaronTrieu View Post
You can't have this many vets and still lose in this way. I'm down for a complete youth movement and tanking 2 years
Be careful what you wish for. That all sounds well and good, but you have to take a look at what the negatives of this would be. First off, two years of relatively high draft picks is likely not enough to drastically improve any team, so the team would have to be in the top five each year of this "tank" period. Then you have to hope that those draft picks turn out to be the players you want them to be. On top of that, they have to be those players in a short amount of time, otherwise the team will continue to tank. The continuing of that downward spiral could lead to guys not wanting to re-sign here (Voracek, The RFAs depending on when their next contracts end) or UFAs not wanting to come here.

If everything goes perfectly, a re-build is ok. But it has to go perfectly (and you have to be willing to endure years of ****tiness with only a potential possibility of maybe getting lucky like the Pens or Blackhawks did by having great players develop the way you hope in a short amount of time). If Morin, Haag, or Laughton, don't amount to much, it will have to be longer than two years. If the other guys they pick don't amount to much, it will be even longer. It is a dangerous idea to plan on rebuilding your team by putting a poor product out on the ice. If it happens by accident, ok. But purposely trying to nab a couple high draft picks can have a much bigger negative impact than positive impact (both short-term and long-term).

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Old
10-16-2013, 12:40 PM
  #35
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what difference does it make, he'll fire Holmgren and replace him with the next half brtain dead goon from his past. As long as that decrepit old circus monkey is alive we arent going anywhere

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10-16-2013, 12:53 PM
  #36
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The Flyers average age for yesterday game against the Canucks with Timmonen (38) and Streit (35) and without Vinny and Hartnell is 26.88 years old...

Guys this is a very young team... Like Buffalo, Toronto, Winnipeg or Nashville... Except for Toronto, all these teams are on rebuilding process and the Flyers too!! To me the game of Thursday is an other test for a young group of guys. I don't expect anything from this team this season other than progression... We need to think for the future...

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10-16-2013, 12:57 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by buff View Post
The Flyers average age for yesterday game against the Canucks with Timmonen (38) and Streit (35) and without Vinny and Hartnell is 26.88 years old...

Guys this is a very young team... Like Buffalo, Toronto, Winnipeg or Nashville... Except for Toronto, all these teams are on rebuilding process and the Flyers too!! To me the game of Thursday is an other test for a young group of guys. I don't expect anything from this team this season other than progression... We need to think for the future...
Rebuilding? lol

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10-16-2013, 01:10 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buff View Post
The Flyers average age for yesterday game against the Canucks with Timmonen (38) and Streit (35) and without Vinny and Hartnell is 26.88 years old...

Guys this is a very young team... Like Buffalo, Toronto, Winnipeg or Nashville... Except for Toronto, all these teams are on rebuilding process and the Flyers too!! To me the game of Thursday is an other test for a young group of guys. I don't expect anything from this team this season other than progression... We need to think for the future...
so you are saying our players should be in their prime? and they are playing like garbage.....

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Old
10-16-2013, 01:14 PM
  #39
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People are going a bit bat-**** crazy round here...and it is understandable in a way. I want this team to win as well.

While the Flyers are not scoring as we all expect them to be I think the whole 'our forwards are not good enough' is reactionary to the extreme... especially people talking about us not trading JVR, Carter, Richards etc, when a month ago everyone loved those trades. (Ofc Richie is a great player, but most could still admit the value we got was good.)

It sticks of the grass is always greener, people disparaged Carter and JVR to the extreme when they were here.

Yes, JVR is better now, but that is frankly, mainly due to how the Flyers used him, and if Schenn or Couts are traded it is almost certain they will see a similar spike in production as well... and then people would be clamouring for them back.

Before labelling our whole forward core inept, I would rather look at a sample size of 2-5 years as opposed to 7 games. Our top 7 forwards.

Preceding seasons points (factored for 82 games):

Giroux: 47, 76, 99, 82 (average 76)
Lecavalier: 71, 70, 68, 63, 67 (average 68)
Voracek: 50, 47, 52, 79 (average 57)
Hartnell: 60, 45, 49, 67, 28 (average 50)
Simmonds: 42, 31, 49, 58 (average 45)
Read: 49, 47 (average 48)
Schenn: 27, 45

So we have 6 guys who have put up ~50 points for at least 2 years, 7 who have put up 50~ in the last few years. In that time 3 of these players have been on different teams, so it is not like it is some crazy up tempo system (which actually would only add about ~5 points to players totals anyway) in Philly made them put up those kind of points and now not be able to score at all.

That is not even counting how frankly the price of our forwards is pretty bloody great when the rest of the league is looked at. They are all locked up combined for a very fair, bordering on cheap, amount.

They have not all just 'gone ****' at the same time have they, and gone from top 6 guys to scrubs.

The fact they have all been disappointing at the same time actually buoys me, as this indicates that it is not just that they exceeded themselves previously, or have declined, as the odds of that are extremely slim, but instead that there have been inherent difficulties with the implementation of systems, effectively coaching... which we all know to be true after watching Lavi for the last year.

Add the obvious problems with coaching to a team wide trend that is the polar opposite from their whole careers so far and I would imagine it is only a matter of time before it clicks.

Berube cannot work magic, it will take time to properly implement the new system, and get everyone on the same page to the point it is instinctive... as the NHL is so good you cannot hesitate or be unsure of what exactly you are supposed to be doing, if you are even good players look poor or average, and we are seeing such hesitation, miscommunication and lack of chemistry to indicate this.

The games since Berube took over have each arguably been better than before, and vs Detroit and Vancover (two pretty good teams) they matched them over the course of the game... in a month they are the kinds of game that the Flyers will hopefully be winning.

If the team is still playing the same after 20 games I will be worried about individual players.

All this season has so far shown me is Lavi needed to be fired at the end of last year... as most people knew.

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Old
10-16-2013, 01:30 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buff View Post
The Flyers average age for yesterday game against the Canucks with Timmonen (38) and Streit (35) and without Vinny and Hartnell is 26.88 years old...

Guys this is a very young team... Like Buffalo, Toronto, Winnipeg or Nashville... Except for Toronto, all these teams are on rebuilding process and the Flyers too!! To me the game of Thursday is an other test for a young group of guys. I don't expect anything from this team this season other than progression... We need to think for the future...
That's why I laugh at everyone who wants to tear this team down AGAIN. This fanbase is extremely hypocritical because they are just as impatient if not more so than our management. They always , always, always flip out when a player is traded and ends up doing well with another team yet they're the same ones who want to overhaul this roster 7 games into the season.

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10-16-2013, 01:44 PM
  #41
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After the Penguins, the schedule is a little friendly to the Flyers:

vs Rangers
@ Islanders
vs Ducks
vs Capitals
@ Devils
@ Hurricanes
vs Devils
vs Oilers

A stretch where they could conceivably win 6-7 games.

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Old
10-16-2013, 01:54 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
That's why I laugh at everyone who wants to tear this team down AGAIN. This fanbase is extremely hypocritical because they are just as impatient if not more so than our management. They always , always, always flip out when a player is traded and ends up doing well with another team yet they're the same ones who want to overhaul this roster 7 games into the season.
Agreed!

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Old
10-16-2013, 01:55 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
People are going a bit bat-**** crazy round here...and it is understandable in a way. I want this team to win as well.

While the Flyers are not scoring as we all expect them to be I think the whole 'our forwards are not good enough' is reactionary to the extreme... especially people talking about us not trading JVR, Carter, Richards etc, when a month ago everyone loved those trades. (Ofc Richie is a great player, but most could still admit the value we got was good.)

It sticks of the grass is always greener, people disparaged Carter and JVR to the extreme when they were here.

Yes, JVR is better now, but that is frankly, mainly due to how the Flyers used him, and if Schenn or Couts are traded it is almost certain they will see a similar spike in production as well... and then people would be clamouring for them back.

Before labelling our whole forward core inept, I would rather look at a sample size of 2-5 years as opposed to 7 games. Our top 7 forwards.

Preceding seasons points (factored for 82 games):

Giroux: 47, 76, 99, 82 (average 76)
Lecavalier: 71, 70, 68, 63, 67 (average 68)
Voracek: 50, 47, 52, 79 (average 57)
Hartnell: 60, 45, 49, 67, 28 (average 50)
Simmonds: 42, 31, 49, 58 (average 45)
Read: 49, 47 (average 48)
Schenn: 27, 45

So we have 6 guys who have put up ~50 points for at least 2 years, 7 who have put up 50~ in the last few years. In that time 3 of these players have been on different teams, so it is not like it is some crazy up tempo system (which actually would only add about ~5 points to players totals anyway) in Philly made them put up those kind of points and now not be able to score at all.

That is not even counting how frankly the price of our forwards is pretty bloody great when the rest of the league is looked at. They are all locked up combined for a very fair, bordering on cheap, amount.

They have not all just 'gone ****' at the same time have they, and gone from top 6 guys to scrubs.

The fact they have all been disappointing at the same time actually buoys me, as this indicates that it is not just that they exceeded themselves previously, or have declined, as the odds of that are extremely slim, but instead that there have been inherent difficulties with the implementation of systems, effectively coaching... which we all know to be true after watching Lavi for the last year.

Add the obvious problems with coaching to a team wide trend that is the polar opposite from their whole careers so far and I would imagine it is only a matter of time before it clicks.

Berube cannot work magic, it will take time to properly implement the new system, and get everyone on the same page to the point it is instinctive... as the NHL is so good you cannot hesitate or be unsure of what exactly you are supposed to be doing, if you are even good players look poor or average, and we are seeing such hesitation, miscommunication and lack of chemistry to indicate this.

The games since Berube took over have each arguably been better than before, and vs Detroit and Vancover (two pretty good teams) they matched them over the course of the game... in a month they are the kinds of game that the Flyers will hopefully be winning.

If the team is still playing the same after 20 games I will be worried about individual players.

All this season has so far shown me is Lavi needed to be fired at the end of last year... as most people knew.
This is right on the money! No doubt that this is frustrating to watch, but this really seems to be a system issue. Whether Berube is fixing it or not is still up for debate, but the fact that the majority of players all seem to be struggling at the same time suggests that other factors are contributing to the poor performance.

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Old
10-16-2013, 02:22 PM
  #44
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Maybe it's just me, but I think panicking is just not the ideal thing to do right now. If anything, the Flyers need to show some restraint and let Berube do his job with the guys he currently has. Let Berube report back to management about which players should stay or go. As well, let Berube have some time to get his system fully implemented and let him see what he can do first. Right now, I'm considering the first month of Craig being on the job his training camp. It's going to be rough and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. So far, we've seen a great deal of improvement in the overall game. When they start winning (and they will eventually start winning), we can all breathe a sigh of relief. I really don't expect things to really turn around until mid-November.

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10-16-2013, 02:38 PM
  #45
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I don't think packaging Simmonds + A Dman for a one way forward who can score is a panic move.

I don't get why when people suggest moves such as that its a panic move, maybe its a move to fill a hole on the team.

The team has a lot of north south players. Aside from Giroux & Voracek, nobody is really elusive and a East-West player. Too many of the same tools.

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Old
10-16-2013, 02:41 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Maybe it's just me, but I think panicking is just not the ideal thing to do right now. If anything, the Flyers need to show some restraint and let Berube do his job with the guys he currently has. Let Berube report back to management about which players should stay or go. As well, let Berube have some time to get his system fully implemented and let him see what he can do first. Right now, I'm considering the first month of Craig being on the job his training camp. It's going to be rough and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. So far, we've seen a great deal of improvement in the overall game. When they start winning (and they will eventually start winning), we can all breathe a sigh of relief. I really don't expect things to really turn around until mid-November.
I'm good with shaking something up, but nothing dramatic needs to happen.

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10-16-2013, 02:43 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm good with shaking something up, but nothing dramatic needs to happen.
I agree with this. A panic move is their 1st overall and Read for Iginla (example).

I think if a trade is made it will be a couple of vet players not playing up to their ability for basically another player(s) not playing up to their abilities.

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Old
10-16-2013, 02:43 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
After the Penguins, the schedule is a little friendly to the Flyers:

vs Rangers
@ Islanders
vs Ducks
vs Capitals
@ Devils
@ Hurricanes
vs Devils
vs Oilers

A stretch where they could conceivably win 6-7 games.
Except the two Devils games, we all know the Flyers can't beat Jersey.

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10-16-2013, 02:44 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
Except the two Devils games, we all know the Flyers can't beat Jersey.
They couldn't before, different team, different system

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10-16-2013, 02:49 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm good with shaking something up, but nothing dramatic needs to happen.
The problem though is that this is a franchise that is known for the dramatic. I'll tell you something though - I'm glad Hextall is here because he's probably the only voice of reason in that room and is the one who's probably telling everyone not to do something drastic.

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