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10-17-2013, 08:10 AM
  #326
Raspewtin
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Unpopular opinion but I'm glad no one went after Brouwer for the hit on Stepan. Dirty or not, that would've ended in a Caps PP and they were totally buzzing at the time. That 5 on 3 kill was a beautiful godsend, but taking another penalty like that would've just been playing with fire. And I'd rather win a hockey game than send a basically ineffective message against a guy like Brouwer, who's a pretty honest player.

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10-17-2013, 08:15 AM
  #327
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I also love the argument that supposedly since nobody killed Brad Stuart or Troy Brouwer, every team we face will turn into goons and cheapshot everyone on our team. It's as if saying legalizing gay marriage will turn people gay. Brad Stuart isn't a clean player, Brouwer has had his dirty moments, etc. If Dylan McIlrath, Mike Rupp, Brian McGrattan, and Georges Laraque were all on the team, the hit still would have happened. I would love as much as anyone else for the guys to all fight for each other, but it's not an end all factor of the game that will turn this team into a contender.

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10-17-2013, 08:15 AM
  #328
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For the 100th time, Haley should be up. Obviously Dorsett isn't enough.

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10-17-2013, 08:19 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Punxrocknyc19 View Post
or maybe Glen Sather thinks they will use their size because they are 6'4 +
Then maybe Glen Sather should stop assuming things? I see other GM's going on the road and taking in games themselves to ***** and scout other teams/players. Why can't he? Maybe if he did he would have a better understanding of a players capabilities. He also chooses our scouts who have failed to identify through trades/free agency or the draft anybody that plays that kind of game outside of Mcilrath and we had to use a top 10 pick to do so. At this point it seems to be a conscious decision not to find these players or an overall philosophy because almost every other team seems to be able to do so with less resources.

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10-17-2013, 08:21 AM
  #330
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Justin Falk shouldn't fight. Forgot there's something called an uppercut. He got popped and down he went.

Nash is a big guy, but he should really keep his gloves on too.

I'll give them creds for having guts tho.

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10-17-2013, 08:22 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
People keep bringing up Chicago. Ice a team with that skill level in the top 6 and you can afford to neglect toughness a bit. They still iced plenty of gritty players who hit and don't back down like Bickel, Shaw, Bolland, even Toews. May not have dropped the gloves a lot or been "intimidating" but they as a group were not afraid to mix it up.

Ditto Pittsburgh. When the Rangers can build their top 6 around the two best centers in the world - sure, load up on whoever on the wings. I don't care. The Pens did still ice a roster that was night and day to the Rangers in terms of grit. Orpik, Morrow, Glass, Engelland, Murray.

How about 2 of the other teams in the conference finals? LA and Boston. They had grit and toughness up and down the lineup. Two of the toughest teams in the league as far as I'm concerned. Don't need to list all the players out.

I know people are gonna pick apart my argument and say well Regehr sucks! Shaw is a fake tough guy! Glass is an AHLer! But that is missing the point. It is about a team concept of balancing skill with grit, about mixing it up to jump start your team, about responding when challenged instead of waiting for Shanny to do it for you. Because when the whistles go away in the postseason teams need to find a way to do their own lifting.

Lastly I would take Matt Martin on the team every day of the week. Someone get Boomer to put in the good word.
1) Yeah, Los Angeles' toughness is why they won that totally lopsided series against SJ, and why they won against an even tougher STL team. They deserved to be out in the 1st round. Quick dragged them through the playoffs and then the Blackhawks blew them open. Toughness didn't mean **** those series', if you ask me.

2) You mention Engelland and Glass as gritty guys that make the Penguins tough. They punch people and that's about it. Engelland is a slightly better Stu Bickel. I'd rather have someone that can play the game than a plug like Engelland, and even Glass is a pretty useless player.

3) What's with the Toews is tough argument? He's gritty sure but he's just as whiny as any other superstar, and really doesn't hit often at all. Bickell hits people, Shaw is a pain in the ass, his toughness isn't what makes him effective. Bolland was useless all playoffs and isn't even on the team anymore.

4) I'd love Matt Martin as well.

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10-17-2013, 08:23 AM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Justin Falk shouldn't fight. Forgot there's something called an uppercut. He got popped and down he went.

Nash is a big guy, but he should really keep his gloves on too.

I'll give them creds for having guts tho.
Falk was fine. Good on him for dropping the gloves.

I don't care if our guys win their fights. It's the ability to keep teams honest and making them drop the gloves that makes players think twice.

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10-17-2013, 08:25 AM
  #333
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Why is everyone so fixated on fighting? You can send a message by taking the body too! Who on this team does that enough or at an effective level? Callahan is awesome but he doesn't really hit to hurt, he doesn't have the build for that or the nasty edge to go with it. Some serious underestimating going on in regard to the affect that can have on a team. You don't need a team full of guys like that but basically having nobody sure doesn't help any.


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10-17-2013, 08:26 AM
  #334
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I also have a concern about the NYR's being soft. No way was that Stepan hit accidental, if that hit was at the blue line there is no doubt that that is called interference. I am glad that no one started a fight but I am concerned that no one sent a message by taking a few clean hard runs at the clown either.

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10-17-2013, 08:28 AM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
I also love the argument that supposedly since nobody killed Brad Stuart or Troy Brouwer, every team we face will turn into goons and cheapshot everyone on our team. It's as if saying legalizing gay marriage will turn people gay. Brad Stuart isn't a clean player, Brouwer has had his dirty moments, etc. If Dylan McIlrath, Mike Rupp, Brian McGrattan, and Georges Laraque were all on the team, the hit still would have happened. I would love as much as anyone else for the guys to all fight for each other, but it's not an end all factor of the game that will turn this team into a contender.
You want to believe that, that's your business. How many times do players on the Bruins vs Kings get run vs the Rangers? I guess it's all just one big coincidence. Ference on McDonagh, Lucic on Nash, Ovi on McDonagh, Lucic on Stralman, Stuart on Nash, Troy Brouwer not caring to take one extra stride. Just "happens to everyone".

And Rupp, McGrattan, Laracque are obviously not an answer. It's a team concept and its about having your skill players have some grit (if they aren't Malkin). It's about your bottom six having young guys who can skate, hit and mix it up like Martin.

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Old
10-17-2013, 08:28 AM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Justin Falk shouldn't fight. Forgot there's something called an uppercut. He got popped and down he went.
85% of fighting is a willingness to do it. In that case, he was successful.

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10-17-2013, 08:33 AM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
You want to believe that, that's your bsuiness. How many times to players on the Bruins vs Kinds get run vs the Rangers? I guess it's all just on big coincidence. Ferene on McDonagh, Lucic on Nash, Ovi on McDonagh, Lucic on Stralman, Stuart on Nash, Troy Brouwer not caring to take one extra stride. Just "happens to everyone".
The two Lucic hits were clean, Ference was during the almighty 2011-2012 season when everyone fought everyone on this team. They didn't try to kill Ference, and on the ensuing PP they won the game. Ovi is also a dirty player, how many cheapshots has he dealt out his career? Why is the McDonagh hit an isolated incident (arguably also, that was a clean hit, though I don't believe it was). Do you see any repeat offenders here? Other than Lucic, who again had clean hits, these players didn't cheap shot the team again. Every team takes a lot of cheapshots......I don't see what you're trying to prove really.

I also mention Rupp, McGrattan etc, becuase that's supposedly (not saying you said that) what deters cheap-shot artists from pulling their bs, which I don't believe for a second.

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10-17-2013, 08:35 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
Why is everyone so fixated on fighting? You can send a message by taking the body too! Who on this team does that enough or at an effective level? Callahan is awesome but he doesn't really hit to hurt, he doesn't have the build for that or the nasty edge to go with it. Some serious underestimating going on in regard to the affect that can have on a team. You don't need a team full of guys like that but basically having nobody sure doesn't help any.
This is very well said.

The roster is filled with too many forwards who don't excel at any one part of the game.

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10-17-2013, 08:35 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
85% of fighting is a willingness to do it. In that case, he was successful.
Agreed. Some people just have a different opinion on this sort of thing and you're not really gonna convince people on either side to change their mind. We complain when nobody stands up and shows any energy but then we bash guys when they do if they don't murder a guy. Prust didn't win all his fights, would anyone like to make the argument that he didn't have a big impact on this team? Was it just coincidence that the best team we iced in years had guys willing and able to play that type of game?

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10-17-2013, 08:37 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter420 View Post
Why is everyone so fixated on fighting? You can send a message by taking the body too! Who on this team does that enough or at an effective level? Callahan is awesome but he doesn't really hit to hurt, he doesn't have the build for that or the nasty edge to go with it. Some serious underestimating going on in regard to the affect that can have on a team. You don't need a team full of guys like that but basically having nobody sure doesn't help any.
Boyle?

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10-17-2013, 08:41 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
Boyle?
I wish but it doesn't appear to be part of the guys DNA. He takes the body but when guy's half your size, like Callahan, do it more often and more effectively its kind of disappointing. Boyle is what he is so I just accept what he's good or not good at and stop hoping he'll be anything more than that.

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10-17-2013, 08:41 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
The two Lucic hits were clean, Ference was during the almighty 2011-2012 season when everyone fought everyone on this team. They didn't try to kill Ference, and on the ensuing PP they won the game. Ovi is also a dirty player, how many cheapshots has he dealt out his career? Why is the McDonagh hit an isolated incident (arguably also, that was a clean hit, though I don't believe it was). Do you see any repeat offenders here? Other than Lucic, who again had clean hits, these players didn't cheap shot the team again. Every team takes a lot of cheapshots......I don't see what you're trying to prove really.
That this team gets repeatedly run and does nothing about it. They are always on the short end of the battle of attrition, which matters all of the time but especially when the whistles go away.

Maybe, just maybe, if there was any potential for retaliation teams would think twice. As they seem to do when they aren't playing the Rangers. The pattern has been established. Every team scouting the Rangers is aware of their stance by watching the tape, and knows they can ride the line, even go over the line, with no repercussions.

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10-17-2013, 08:47 AM
  #343
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For me, it's not just about the ability to fight or deliver a hit, it's about teammates having the mindset of supporting and protecting one another. It should be instinctual. When Hansen elbowed Hossa last season, Toews immediately went after Hansen and Hjalmarsson was right behind him. The linesman got involved before a fight ensued, so it won't show up on the scoresheet. But the Blackhawks had the right mentality - they showed a willingness to stand up for their teammate. It's not something we have seen a lot from the Rangers this season.

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10-17-2013, 08:49 AM
  #344
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It's only a matter of time until a few more of those hits tests the depth of the team. How many top line guys are going to take head shots? Let's not forget Nash took a few to the head after stepping up for Stepan because the team didn't have anyone else do that.

What needed to happen was to get a couple of willing players on the ice to run full speed into the Washington defense one cross corner dump after another on top of Brouwer having to answer the bell.

That's how you send a message that you're not going to be pushed around.

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10-17-2013, 08:49 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Falk was fine. Good on him for dropping the gloves.

I don't care if our guys win their fights. It's the ability to keep teams honest and making them drop the gloves that makes players think twice.
I said thumbs up for trying.

But do we have a fighter on this team? A heavyweight respected by the opponent? No, we're a sissy team, and we're being treated like one. We need tough guys to gain some momentum. Dorsett is not the answer, he's too small.

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10-17-2013, 08:50 AM
  #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
That this team gets repeatedly run and does nothing about it. They are always on the short end of the battle of attrition, which matters all of the time but especially when the whistles go away.

Maybe, just maybe, if there was any potential for retaliation teams would think twice. As they seem to do when they aren't playing the Rangers. The pattern has been established. Every team scouting the Rangers is aware of their stance by watching the tape, and knows they can ride the line, even go over the line, with no repercussions.
Just saying I am not advocating that this team should never respond and everyone should just get hurt with no answer, but I think the no response thing gets completely blown out of proportion. How many players do you see cheapshotting the same team twice? Remember when Matt Cooke KO'ed Marc Savard? He clearly wasn't deterred by Lucic or Thornton. Sure the next game they played Thornton beat the **** out of him, but that didn't change Matt Cooke as a player at all. Actually come to think of it, Matt Cooke cheapshotted two Rangers a season apart from each other. Ryan Callahan fought Cooke later in the game as a response, didn't stop Cooke from elbowing McDonagh next season. My point is, cheapshotters are going to cheapshot, it's what they do. And every team takes plenty of cheapshots. The Rangers are only different in that lately, they don't have a huge response. I'd like them to honestly, but it's not the difference between winning and losing games.

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10-17-2013, 08:51 AM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
I said thumbs up for trying.

But do we have a fighter on this team? A heavyweight respected by the opponent? No, we're a sissy team, and we're being treated like one. We need tough guys to gain some momentum. Dorsett is not the answer, he's too small.
Lets call up Jason Wilson!

I'm sorry but heavyweights solve absolutely nothing. Useless players.

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10-17-2013, 08:53 AM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
Lets call up Jason Wilson!

I'm sorry but heavyweights solve absolutely nothing. Useless players.
This I agree with. I want a team full of guys capable of dropping the gloves if need be, not just 1 guy who plays 3 minutes a game who only can fight and is a liability at all other times.

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10-17-2013, 08:57 AM
  #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
That this team gets repeatedly run and does nothing about it. They are always on the short end of the battle of attrition, which matters all of the time but especially when the whistles go away.

Maybe, just maybe, if there was any potential for retaliation teams would think twice. As they seem to do when they aren't playing the Rangers. The pattern has been established. Every team scouting the Rangers is aware of their stance by watching the tape, and knows they can ride the line, even go over the line, with no repercussions.
and yet some people will still complain when Callahan got hurt when Talbot was jamming at the crease...

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10-17-2013, 09:01 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The roster is filled with too many forwards who don't excel at any one part of the game.
Perfect. Though I will say that I would call Haley up. Him and Dorsett on a 4th line can give the energy that this team needs. Plenty of people that can be sat.

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