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Rangers season at crossroads--already

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10-15-2013, 12:30 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
Torts couldn't coach in NYC anymore. The players tuned him out and he alienated key guys. Plus there was a fundamental coaching problem where he and Sullivan could not develop the power play. He had to go, no doubt about that. We need to give AV at least 20 games before we can make any sort of evaluation since the team is still learning the system and they haven't even played at home yet
You've all made astute observations and valid points about Torts. Personally, I liked him as our coach and I firmly believe he was coaching to the strengths of the team even though the games were borderline unwatchable as a fan.
That being said, I do believe that his tenure had run it's course and it was time for a change although I personally would never have hired AV.

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10-15-2013, 12:32 PM
  #377
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They never tuned him out. Chafed, yes. But never tuned out. Because Torts was the model of consistency. If you did not play EXACTLY the way that he wanted, you were either 1) benched 2) demoted 3) scratched. And he did not waver no matter who you were.
Unless you were Brad Richards

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10-15-2013, 12:43 PM
  #378
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Personally, I liked him as our coach and I firmly believe he was coaching to the strengths of the team even though the games were borderline unwatchable as a fan.
Same thing was said about the Devils. As they were winning Cup after Cup.
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That being said, I do believe that his tenure had run it's course and it was time for a change
Most success of any coach (other than 1 year from Kennan) and that means that the course is run? Players played hard every night. No matter what they felt about his yoke.

And if you are going to make a change, it should be for an upgrade. What is that upgrade?

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10-15-2013, 12:43 PM
  #379
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Unless you were Brad Richards
Who was demoted to the 4th line and scratched from games entirely?

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10-15-2013, 12:44 PM
  #380
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They never tuned him out. Chafed, yes. But never tuned out. Because Torts was the model of consistency. If you did not play EXACTLY the way that he wanted, you were either 1) benched 2) demoted 3) scratched. And he did not waver no matter who you were.
No of course not, everything was fine. Gaby & half the team were just overpaid shot blockers




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And if you are going to make a change, it should be for an upgrade. What is that upgrade?
Impossible to say right now, we'll get an idea in a few weeks and the determination will be made at the end of the season

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10-15-2013, 12:49 PM
  #381
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I think that if this team doesn't tun this around in the next 5 games, there will be more changes coming and we may look back and say that it was a crossroads.
I agree--I have no doubt that the organization wants to have a "team" on the ice come opening night at MSG, not a bunch of clueless players wandering around like chickens without their heads, especially because there are so many home games up front. If the group continues to play like this, it will kill any excitement at the Garden (and encourage the boobirds).

The short-term is very important right now and how this situation is dealt with will have a lot to do with how the season plays out. There's plenty of time to right the ship, but things have to start getting better in a hurry.

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10-15-2013, 02:42 PM
  #382
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No of course not, everything was fine. Gaby & half the team were just overpaid shot blockers

Not sure what you are getting at. Are you insinuating that Gaborik and half the team quit playing hard? And frankly, who cares about being shot blockers? What is wrong with that? It was a team to be proud of. First one since 1994.

Blocked shots or no blocked shots, he got results.
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Impossible to say right now, we'll get an idea in a few weeks and the determination will be made at the end of the season
Shouldn't body of work be counted for something when determining upgrades?

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10-16-2013, 12:36 PM
  #383
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Same thing was said about the Devils. As they were winning Cup after Cup.

Most success of any coach (other than 1 year from Kennan) and that means that the course is run? Players played hard every night. No matter what they felt about his yoke.

And if you are going to make a change, it should be for an upgrade. What is that upgrade?
Thought this Alzner quote was very interesting:

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“I’m excited to see what their new style is like,” Karl Alzner said. “It was always really frustrating playing against them because as D you could never get a puck through. They’re super tough on the forecheck, it was a hard game for us. I’m curious to see what they’re going to be like and how they’re going to play their guys differently. You know in the back of their head they still have a little bit of Tortorella barking at them, so I’m sure we’ll still see a few of the same things.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...familiar-with/

Find it hard to believe Alzner is only Capital or player around the league who feels this way.

Again, think Vigneault is good coach and he can have success here but it's going to take a lot of time and some roster moves before that can happen. Won't be the smooth and seamless transition to more goals and more success that people thought firing Torts would bring. Yet, the team being taken in another direction under Sather.

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10-16-2013, 12:42 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Not sure what you are getting at. Are you insinuating that Gaborik and half the team quit playing hard? And frankly, who cares about being shot blockers? What is wrong with that? It was a team to be proud of. First one since 1994.

Blocked shots or no blocked shots, he got results.

Shouldn't body of work be counted for something when determining upgrades?
I was proud of the 1997 team, particularly in the playoffs.

But that being said, Tortorella's problem, in the end, stemmed from the fact that his approach never allowed the team to get enough offense out of this roster in the playoffs, when the games get tighter. To me, that was the end of the conversation. The Rangers weren't going to win it all with him, so it was time to move on. Whether or not we've got an improvement in AV remains to be seen, but in terms of ultimate success, it was time to try something different.

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10-16-2013, 12:48 PM
  #385
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I was proud of the 1997 team, particularly in the playoffs.

But that being said, Tortorella's problem, in the end, stemmed from the fact that his approach never allowed the team to get enough offense out of this roster in the playoffs, when the games get tighter. To me, that was the end of the conversation. The Rangers weren't going to win it all with him, so it was time to move on. Whether or not we've got an improvement in AV remains to be seen, but in terms of ultimate success, it was time to try something different.
pretty much, kind of like Mike Woodson with the Knicks. Except he's still here because he didn't abuse the fans & media

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10-16-2013, 01:34 PM
  #386
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Same thing was said about the Devils. As they were winning Cup after Cup.

Most success of any coach (other than 1 year from Kennan) and that means that the course is run? Players played hard every night. No matter what they felt about his yoke.

And if you are going to make a change, it should be for an upgrade. What is that upgrade?
Look, I feel that Torts deserved to remain as coach for this season. The players and management decided otherwise.

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10-16-2013, 02:55 PM
  #387
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But that being said, Tortorella's problem, in the end, stemmed from the fact that his approach never allowed the team to get enough offense out of this roster in the playoffs, when the games get tighter. To me, that was the end of the conversation. The Rangers weren't going to win it all with him, so it was time to move on. Whether or not we've got an improvement in AV remains to be seen, but in terms of ultimate success, it was time to try something different.
He got out as much offense as he could. Trying something different for something's different sake is not the answer. The moves needed to be an upgrade. Torts record is vastly better than AV's.

Torts played the team to get maximum success.

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10-16-2013, 02:57 PM
  #388
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The players and management decided otherwise.
I agree with that. It is not a persona issue. I just do not think that Sather thought it through well enough. Or made the replacement choice with enough thought. Never mind that the players thought that they were some sort of an offensive juggernaut that was being held back.

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10-16-2013, 03:01 PM
  #389
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I was proud of the 1997 team, particularly in the playoffs.

But that being said, Tortorella's problem, in the end, stemmed from the fact that his approach never allowed the team to get enough offense out of this roster in the playoffs, when the games get tighter. To me, that was the end of the conversation. The Rangers weren't going to win it all with him, so it was time to move on. Whether or not we've got an improvement in AV remains to be seen, but in terms of ultimate success, it was time to try something different.
Maybe, just maybe, he realized that the good fundamentals he instilled collapse like a house of cards the moment he tries to open up the offense. Its especially true with a sketchy roster in the first place.

If this current cluster**** continues, I'd certainly buy into that thought. I predict, before too long, you see Vigneault installing a system that looks a helluva lot like Torts' old one.

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10-16-2013, 03:25 PM
  #390
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He got out as much offense as he could. Trying something different for something's different sake is not the answer. The moves needed to be an upgrade. Torts record is vastly better than AV's.

Torts played the team to get maximum success.
I don't think he did.

At ES, yes, I think he got as much out of them as he possibly could.

However, I think had he been open to adding another coach to the bench for the specific purpose of running the teams PP, we could have benefitted from that a great deal. Improving out PP from 29th in the league to 15th could have been the difference in the Devils CF series and would have made the Rangers a more dangerous team vs. Boston last year.

His absolute reluctance to add another body to the bench caused more problems for him that anything else he did.

Add to that that he basically admitted to ruining his relationship with Richards (HIS GUY) it's pretty clear that things were not going to get better for him here.

It was time to cut the guy loose.

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10-16-2013, 03:51 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
He got out as much offense as he could. Trying something different for something's different sake is not the answer. The moves needed to be an upgrade. Torts record is vastly better than AV's.
Torts played the team to get maximum success.
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Maybe, just maybe, he realized that the good fundamentals he instilled collapse like a house of cards the moment he tries to open up the offense. Its especially true with a sketchy roster in the first place.
If this current cluster**** continues, I'd certainly buy into that thought. I predict, before too long, you see Vigneault installing a system that looks a helluva lot like Torts' old one.
His system was great for regular season success. I really didn't have a problem with the team's ability to score goals in the regular season, unlike a lot of people here. To go from middle of the pack in the regular season, offensively, to numbers in the playoffs that would've been bottom of the barrel during the regular season and not having any kind of answer for it... that's the problem.

And yeah, sometimes trying something different for the sake of something different can be the answer. Right now, we have no idea what the deal is with this team. Anyone claiming that they do is just simply sitting there with their fingers crossed that they're right (or wrong, if it's a negative view). Tortorella has a .541 points % in the regular season and a .494 winning percentage in the playoffs. Vigneault has a .581 points % in the regular season and a .500 winning % in the playoffs. Tortorella has won 1 more game in his best playoff year than AV did in his. TB, Torts doesn't have a "vastly better record." Sometimes all you really need is a new voice and a new way of doing things. We will see.

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10-16-2013, 03:56 PM
  #392
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I don't think he did.

At ES, yes, I think he got as much out of them as he possibly could.

However, I think had he been open to adding another coach to the bench for the specific purpose of running the teams PP, we could have benefitted from that a great deal. Improving out PP from 29th in the league to 15th could have been the difference in the Devils CF series and would have made the Rangers a more dangerous team vs. Boston last year.

His absolute reluctance to add another body to the bench caused more problems for him that anything else he did.

Add to that that he basically admitted to ruining his relationship with Richards (HIS GUY) it's pretty clear that things were not going to get better for him here.

It was time to cut the guy loose.

You think if presented with the decision to bring in another coach to handle special teams or to take a walk he might have considered it?

Considering all of the changes and the lockout shortened season, Torts did a really good job to help guide that team into the playoffs, let alone the second round.

Richards relationship is complex. Richards has to look in the mirror on that one as much as Torts does. There were reports that it was at the front office's urging that Richards was finally made a healthy scratch. He received a regular shift and powerplay time for the entire season when he didn't look like he belonged on an NHL ice for stretches.

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10-17-2013, 08:56 AM
  #393
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His system was great for regular season success.
I tend to think that the in your face, defensive style boas well for playoffs.

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Tortorella has won 1 more game in his best playoff year than AV did in his. TB, Torts doesn't have a "vastly better record." Sometimes all you really need is a new voice and a new way of doing things. We will see.
Tortorella also has a Cup to his credit. I look at the amount of times he got what was not a deeply talented team past the first round. The PP needed to be better, but that I put on Sullivan

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10-17-2013, 09:05 AM
  #394
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I tend to think that the in your face, defensive style boas well for playoffs.


Tortorella also has a Cup to his credit. I look at the amount of times he got what was not a deeply talented team past the first round. The PP needed to be better, but that I put on Sullivan
It wasn't the defensive style that was the problem in the playoffs though. You need to be able to score, as well. And while those Rangers teams weren't great offensively, the system was a detriment to them come playoff time, where they couldn't even maintain the mediocre offense that they had during the regular season. Tortorella just had no answer for it, no fault of his. That kind of coaching is incredibly difficult. It just was time for something else.

Yeah, a Cup... thus the 1 more win in his best year than AV had in his. He got a team that wasn't deeply talented, offensively, past the first round twice with the Rangers. Alain Vigneault did it once with the Canadiens.

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10-17-2013, 09:07 AM
  #395
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It wasn't the defensive style that was the problem in the playoffs though. You need to be able to score, as well.
I do not disagree with that. However, the PP needed to be fixed and Sullivan was not the one to do it. Also, let's face it. The Rangers were not loaded with purely offensive talented players. Nash disappeared and Richards was non-existent.

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10-17-2013, 09:09 AM
  #396
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I do not disagree with that. However, the PP needed to be fixed and Sullivan was not the one to do it. Also, let's face it. The Rangers were not loaded with purely offensive talented players. Nash disappeared and Richards was non-existent.
The powerplay was not the only offensive problem they had in the playoffs, though. And no disagreement on the roster makeup. But if Tortorella couldn't get the most out of them in the playoffs, then he needed to go, in the end.

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10-17-2013, 09:15 AM
  #397
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I think if you can play really solid defense, establish a strong forecheck to wear down the opposition/keep the puck out of your end, and have a top-10 pp you can have success in the playoffs.

I don't see this team being able to just dominate teams in the postseason based on talent alone, constantly pushing the pace. Agree/disagree with it the goal is to win some games and rounds.

It may not make the team a true elite "contender" but those IMO are the three elements they need to get clicking to have a respectable year. Not saying its the "best strategy" but it's what I see the goal being.

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10-17-2013, 10:08 AM
  #398
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I think if you can play really solid defense, establish a strong forecheck to wear down the opposition/keep the puck out of your end, and have a top-10 pp you can have success in the playoffs.

I don't see this team being able to just dominate teams in the postseason based on talent alone, constantly pushing the pace. Agree/disagree with it the goal is to win some games and rounds.

It may not make the team a true elite "contender" but those IMO are the three elements they need to get clicking to have a respectable year. Not saying its the "best strategy" but it's what I see the goal being.
Which is why I lament the power play so. The team was a strong defensive team, with a great forecheck and physical presence that wore down the opposition. It's the awful PP that was the problem.

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10-17-2013, 10:15 AM
  #399
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The PP needed to be better, but that I put on Sullivan
and necessarily you have to put that on Tortorella because he refused to let slats replace him with a competent PP coach

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10-17-2013, 10:21 AM
  #400
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The powerplay was not the only offensive problem they had in the playoffs, though. And no disagreement on the roster makeup. But if Tortorella couldn't get the most out of them in the playoffs, then he needed to go, in the end.
I don't know what you're asking for in your last few posts.

This team, this organization, has had trouble scoring goals since Jagr and his boys left. Its largely because they've lacked an abundance of goal scorers.

I don't know how you expect the Rangers to magically score more goals in the playoffs, where it is traditionally tougher to score.

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