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Talk Slowly and Use Small Words, its the Michael Del Zotto Thread

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Old
10-16-2013, 03:32 PM
  #76
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So he wasn't threatening?

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10-16-2013, 03:36 PM
  #77
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North American hockey is too hard for some guys.

Let him go back where he only has to play one side of the puck.

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10-16-2013, 03:56 PM
  #78
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Am I the only one who finds it amusing that there's a father & son combo of Rail and Nail?

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10-16-2013, 03:58 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
So he wasn't threatening?
Would it surprise you if he was?

Honestly people want to downplay the Russian factor, but realistically as long as there is a very popular league that pays handsomely right in their backyards, I don't see why it shouldn't be considered a concern.

Ilya Kovalchuk was a successful NHL star and he still ran off.

Yes, I think as situations like this arise around unhappy Russian players rumors will get started, but honestly even if they are just rumors do you really want to risk losing assets on a player that is a candidate for leaving the NHL?

I don't. Sorry, no thanks.

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10-16-2013, 03:59 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Would it surprise you if he was?

Honestly people want to downplay the Russian factor, but realistically as long as there is a very popular league that pays handsomely right in their backyards, I don't see why it shouldn't be considered a concern.

Ilya Kovalchuk was a successful NHL star and he still ran off.

Yes, I think as situations like this arise around unhappy Russian players rumors will get started, but honestly even if they are just rumors do you really want to risk losing assets on a player that is a candidate for leaving the NHL?

I don't. Sorry, no thanks.
Yes it would, and you have no proof of what you are saying. Every individual is different.

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10-16-2013, 04:01 PM
  #81
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Who is more hated here for petty reasons: MDZ or Brian Boyle? It's hard to tell.
Neither are hated, both are maligned for good reason.

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10-16-2013, 04:05 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Yes it would, and you have no proof of what you are saying. Every individual is different.
I never claimed to. A poster I quoted said he was threatening, and so I responded to that. Then Nevesis linked the article where he was supposedly threatening, but the claims were denied.

I'm only saying the potential is there. Burmistrov was unhappy. Where is he now?

It's not worth the risk to me, rumors, or not.

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10-16-2013, 05:30 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Fleury4ever View Post
Interesting points, I think you should be the lead pitchman to sell teams on Del Zotto before he's traded.

The problem is, in the end he either will somehow turn out as good as these guys or he won't... I think he won't, and because your line of thinking is very legitimate until proven otherwise, the Rangers still have a chance to get something decent for Del Z right now. Wait much longer, and they won't and NYR will be stuck with a dumber, slower version of John-Michael Liles.
Exactly. Savard will never be more than a 40ish point center. I mean, that's all he's scored by the age of 22, so he is what he is, amiright? And hell, we can pawn him off on some sucker of a team and get someone who will just DOMINATE, like Jamie Lundmark! Imagine how good we'd be!


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The big argument for trading Del Z is, you can pretty easily replace him with any subpar offensive D man. Unless he becomes Duncan Keith (he's too small and jittery to be Chara, Weber, Suter, etc.) there is no real downside to trading him. If you wake up one 3rd pair offensive D from winning the cup you can grab the latest Kaberle, Liles, Leopold and move forward.
That's a pretty damned stupid argument. If Del Zotto is "pretty easy" to replace, then perhaps you can inform me how many 40 point defensemen this team has had over the last, oh 20 years. You go ahead. I'll wait.

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The Rangers have needs that are harder to fill, like good 2 way center, hard point shot D, if you can trade Del Z and address that, you'd be nuts to not do so because Duncan Keith had comparable offensive seasons before he became awesome.
Yeah, we do need a good two-way center, particularly since we traded two of them away idiotically (something else I was mocked for when I said it would hurt the team). I agree that we need a shot from the point, but those are tougher to come by and they don't always work out so well (Kotalik, anyone?).

Again, you folks want to believe the sky is falling. It's not. A player is developing. It takes time. Frankly, your entire argument is based on a fear that a 23 year old PMD will never get any better than he is today. Even if that were true (which would fly in the face of pretty much all trends in player development, as I mentioned earlier), we would still have a player who has been the ONLY consistently successful offensive defenseman on this team since Leetch was sent packing--and that isn't from a lack of trying. Slats has brought a parade of offense-first D through this roster. MDZ is the only one to do anything of note.

Also, congratulations. Your little panic session has officially made the trade board even more unreadable than it normally is. There are trade threads from fans of half the teams in the league offering garbage and half a bologna sandwich for a player who has often been one of our best defensemen.

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Old
10-16-2013, 06:43 PM
  #84
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Again, you folks want to believe the sky is falling. It's not. A player is developing. It takes time.
It takes time, how much time? Time is a horrible argument when the kid is going on his 5th year in the NHL. It's not like the prior 4 years he has been in the AHL making progress every year and earning himself a roster spot.

That's my biggest complaint with MDZ right now. Zero consistency. He still can't hit the net half the time. If every year he got a little better, I would not be worried about a slow start this year. The problem is that we don't know what MDZ we are going to get this year. Will it be the Michael with an offensive touch and good play on both sides of the puck, or the head case who looks completely lost every shift?

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10-16-2013, 07:01 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
It takes time, how much time? Time is a horrible argument when the kid is going on his 5th year in the NHL. It's not like the prior 4 years he has been in the AHL making progress every year and earning himself a roster spot.

That's my biggest complaint with MDZ right now. Zero consistency. He still can't hit the net half the time. If every year he got a little better, I would not be worried about a slow start this year. The problem is that we don't know what MDZ we are going to get this year. Will it be the Michael with an offensive touch and good play on both sides of the puck, or the head case who looks completely lost every shift?
He's still 23. There's a reason a players "prime" is based on an age range and not an "experience" range. Physically and mentally, those years are when a player is most likely to put it all together.

I have two problems with your viewpoint. First--you want consistency out of a 23 year old defenseman. Again, outside of a VERY elite group of top guys, you just aren't going to get that. As I said earlier, some of the guys who ARE current top guys didn't get there until they were older.

Second--you base your view on the idea that he hasn't gotten any better. Go back and watch rookie season Del Zotto and then come back and claim he hasn't gotten better. If you can do so with a straight face, I would assume that you were either blind or a liar. He has improved defensively each year he's been in the league. For a player who never HAD to play defense, that's a lot to learn. It's also not second-nature yet. You can see him always thinking about where he's supposed to be. It's the reason you all think he's stupid. The more comfortable he gets being defensively responsible, the more his offensive game will open up (and become quicker). It's called a development curve. Staal went through the exact same thing at the exact same age (he tried to add offense, and it led to his defense suffering--he never really started to put both sides of his game together until last season).

Again--worst case scenario is that you guys are right and he is what he is. What he is is still the best PMD this team has had since Leetch left. I just don't see any gain in moving him for a bushel of magic beans (ie- Lundmark). Best to be patient. He's a good player as is, and the upside of him continuing to put it all together is worth far more than we would ever get in trade.

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10-16-2013, 08:53 PM
  #86
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He's not playing tonight? They look really good. Maybe it's just the Caps, but, the power play looks like an actual power play. The points don't fumble the puck every time they get it, etc.

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10-16-2013, 09:00 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by mandiblesofdoom View Post
He's not playing tonight? They look really good. Maybe it's just the Caps, but, the power play looks like an actual power play. The points don't fumble the puck every time they get it, etc.
He has the flu. The Caps are not even close to the level of the teams we've played so far. I'm happy for how well they are playing, but I'm keeping my optimism cautious for now.

Incidentally, while I like Moore--the GDT is a prime example of why some of us get on others for hating MDZ irrationally. Within seconds of Moore's goal (which was beautiful), no fewer than 5 posters (most of whom you can probably guess without even looking) made the goal all about DZ, and how Moore is so much better and that goal proves it. Again--I actually like Moore--but that was only his 4th goal in more than 100 NHL games. Michael "can't shoot" Del Zotto has 20 more goals and nearly 100 more points than Moore, and they are the same age. In other words, it was a pretty goal, but the fact that people think that makes him better than DZ shows the ridiculous bias among a certain crowd on here.

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10-16-2013, 09:02 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by mandiblesofdoom View Post
He's not playing tonight? They look really good. Maybe it's just the Caps, but, the power play looks like an actual power play. The points don't fumble the puck every time they get it, etc.
He has the flu.

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10-16-2013, 10:21 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
He has the flu. The Caps are not even close to the level of the teams we've played so far. I'm happy for how well they are playing, but I'm keeping my optimism cautious for now.

Incidentally, while I like Moore--the GDT is a prime example of why some of us get on others for hating MDZ irrationally. Within seconds of Moore's goal (which was beautiful), no fewer than 5 posters (most of whom you can probably guess without even looking) made the goal all about DZ, and how Moore is so much better and that goal proves it. Again--I actually like Moore--but that was only his 4th goal in more than 100 NHL games. Michael "can't shoot" Del Zotto has 20 more goals and nearly 100 more points than Moore, and they are the same age. In other words, it was a pretty goal, but the fact that people think that makes him better than DZ shows the ridiculous bias among a certain crowd on here.
Moore can hit the net consistently, that's already an improvement over DZ. The power play looked better than it has in awhile. He has 4 more SoG in less ice time, and the same amount of games. Five of which came tonight getting more PP time. Is he better than DZ overall? I have no idea, but he sure looks better right now.

I don't think they should trade DZ, unless it's a significant upgrade, but he is what he is, and in 4 seasons he still can't hit the god damn net. The kid is frustrating.

Edit: Oh and DZ has 150 more NHL games under his belt than Moore, so using stats as a comparison isn't really fair. Moore was in the AHL developing or playing on a garbage CBJ team while DZ was playing on a Rangers team making the playoffs and winning a lot more games.

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10-16-2013, 11:01 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Moore can hit the net consistently, that's already an improvement over DZ. The power play looked better than it has in awhile. He has 4 more SoG in less ice time, and the same amount of games. Five of which came tonight getting more PP time. Is he better than DZ overall? I have no idea, but he sure looks better right now.
And you don't think that the power play might have looked better because they played the first bad team they've faced this season? Del Zotto has outshot Moore since they've both been on the same team (by a fairly decent margin).

Again though--it comes down to results. Moore has 4 career goals. 4.

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I don't think they should trade DZ, unless it's a significant upgrade, but he is what he is, and in 4 seasons he still can't hit the god damn net. The kid is frustrating.
When will it ever sink in with you that NO 23 year old defender "is what he is." You being pissed that a 23 year old isn't playing like a 28 year old is not a poor reflection on the 23 year old. It's a poor reflection on your comprehension skills.

Quote:
Edit: Oh and DZ has 150 more NHL games under his belt than Moore, so using stats as a comparison isn't really fair. Moore was in the AHL developing or playing on a garbage CBJ team while DZ was playing on a Rangers team making the playoffs and winning a lot more games.
Okay, let's contextualize those stats to make them more fair. Yeah, Del Zotto has 2.5x the games that Moore has played. In those 2.5x games, he has scored 5x as many goals, and about 7.5x as many points. All while playing harder minutes. It gets even more pronounced in the postseason, where Moore only put up one point in 12 playoff games. Del Zotto did better than that (albeit barely) playing with a hernia, and the year before, he put up 10 points in 20 games. And before you go on about PP time, neither of DZ's points from last postseason were on the PP, and less than half from the previous year.

Moore has been great playing safe 3rd pair minutes. I'm glad we have players like him and Stralman on the 3rd pair, because they can step up and play on that 2nd pair when needed. To date, however, as an attacking defenseman, John Moore would need to improve exponentially to even be in the same conversation with Del Zotto.

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10-17-2013, 02:08 AM
  #91
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Im gonna get killed for this but....

Id rather keep DZ let him grow with this new system which he fits and and Trade Girardi and before people say that g is our our best right dman Stralman is having a better season and will cost less going forward. Girardi will get us a great return plus hes gonna cost a fortune in the off season.

For next year i say

McD-Stralman
Staal-MDZ
Moore-McIrath

if dz is still having issues on the right try Staal there he will most likly adapt better to the right. the only issue is the 3rd pairing going forward this season if G is moved as i dont think big mac will be ready and i dont trust falk and do not wanna see bickel in blue ever again

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10-17-2013, 02:15 AM
  #92
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Very tired of hearing about his upside. All he does is make long passes that get turned over and miss the net. Get with it boy.

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10-17-2013, 02:35 AM
  #93
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he played very well tonight - i admit ;-0

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10-17-2013, 07:03 AM
  #94
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And you don't think that the power play might have looked better because they played the first bad team they've faced this season? Del Zotto has outshot Moore since they've both been on the same team (by a fairly decent margin).

Again though--it comes down to results. Moore has 4 career goals. 4.



When will it ever sink in with you that NO 23 year old defender "is what he is." You being pissed that a 23 year old isn't playing like a 28 year old is not a poor reflection on the 23 year old. It's a poor reflection on your comprehension skills.



Okay, let's contextualize those stats to make them more fair. Yeah, Del Zotto has 2.5x the games that Moore has played. In those 2.5x games, he has scored 5x as many goals, and about 7.5x as many points. All while playing harder minutes. It gets even more pronounced in the postseason, where Moore only put up one point in 12 playoff games. Del Zotto did better than that (albeit barely) playing with a hernia, and the year before, he put up 10 points in 20 games. And before you go on about PP time, neither of DZ's points from last postseason were on the PP, and less than half from the previous year.

Moore has been great playing safe 3rd pair minutes. I'm glad we have players like him and Stralman on the 3rd pair, because they can step up and play on that 2nd pair when needed. To date, however, as an attacking defenseman, John Moore would need to improve exponentially to even be in the same conversation with Del Zotto.
Every 23 year old defensemen ever has never hit their ceiling by that age? That seems like a big leap to me. I would bet a million dollars there have been a lot of players who fizzled out by 23 because it was clear they were not going to make it in the NHL or pro hockey. Of course Del Zotto is going to get better. He's shown he is a capable NHL defensemen and thus will continue playing hockey. It's pretty obvious the more you do something the better at it you will get. It's not the question of will DZ get better, again, unless he falls off a cliff that one is obvious. The real question is, HOW MUCH better will Del Zotto get and in my opinion (love it or hate it) he's not going to be the PPQB stud he was drafted to be. If I am wrong, great, but until then onus is on him to prove he is still developing and can take his game to the next level. Sorry for not comprehending your ridiculous claim that no 23 year old in history stopped developing or hit their ceiling.

Again, with the stats you can extrapolate and prorate all day and it changes nothing. Until John Moore plays 150 more games you cannot compare him to a 250 game MDZ fairly or accurately. Maybe Moore got a slower start for X amount of reasons. Maybe if he is given the same minutes and played in similar situations as Michael for the next 150 games he will prove to be better. Comparing stats is disingenous and misleading. We will see.

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10-17-2013, 07:25 AM
  #95
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I hear the Avs might be looking for an dman with offensive potential..


how about this??
Rangers trade Brian Boyle, Michael Del Zotto and Pyatt (throw in)
Avs trade Ryan Wilson, Steve Downie (conditional 2ed in 2014 if Downie does not resign), McLeod and 3rd in 2014..


Rangers get much needed grit and toughness on the backend.. Rangers get an emotional player they have not had since Dubinsky...

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10-17-2013, 10:20 AM
  #96
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you dont give up on young defenseman like that....

typical rangers fan BS.

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10-17-2013, 10:38 AM
  #97
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you dont give up on young defenseman like that....

typical rangers fan BS.
Its his 5th year. Hes gotten progressively worse at running the PP, which should be his #1 attribute.

Hes most comfortable on the left side and is currently our 3rd best left defenseman, with John Moore nipping at his heals.

Hes due a new contract this summer and, truth be told, if he can't run the PP, I don't know what purpose he serves.

His situation and future with this franchise is anything but typical.

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10-17-2013, 10:45 AM
  #98
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Whether people want to admit it or not, Del Zotto has been and currently is a better NHL defenseman than Moore.

That could certianlly change in the future, but a single goal in the midst of the most horrific team start in recent memmory is a far cry from proof of anything

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10-17-2013, 10:53 AM
  #99
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Whether people want to admit it or not, Del Zotto has been and currently is a better NHL defenseman than Moore.

That could certianlly change in the future, but a single goal in the midst of the most horrific team start in recent memmory is a far cry from proof of anything
The Rangers can sign Moore to a 2 year bridge contract next summer. Del Zotto will require a longer and more lucrative commitment.

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10-17-2013, 10:57 AM
  #100
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Exactly. Savard will never be more than a 40ish point center. I mean, that's all he's scored by the age of 22, so he is what he is, amiright? And hell, we can pawn him off on some sucker of a team and get someone who will just DOMINATE, like Jamie Lundmark! Imagine how good we'd be!

That's a pretty damned stupid argument. If Del Zotto is "pretty easy" to replace, then perhaps you can inform me how many 40 point defensemen this team has had over the last, oh 20 years. You go ahead. I'll wait.

Yeah, we do need a good two-way center, particularly since we traded two of them away idiotically (something else I was mocked for when I said it would hurt the team). I agree that we need a shot from the point, but those are tougher to come by and they don't always work out so well (Kotalik, anyone?).

Again, you folks want to believe the sky is falling. It's not. A player is developing. It takes time. Frankly, your entire argument is based on a fear that a 23 year old PMD will never get any better than he is today. Even if that were true (which would fly in the face of pretty much all trends in player development, as I mentioned earlier), we would still have a player who has been the ONLY consistently successful offensive defenseman on this team since Leetch was sent packing--and that isn't from a lack of trying. Slats has brought a parade of offense-first D through this roster. MDZ is the only one to do anything of note.

Also, congratulations. Your little panic session has officially made the trade board even more unreadable than it normally is. There are trade threads from fans of half the teams in the league offering garbage and half a bologna sandwich for a player who has often been one of our best defensemen.
Feel free to relax a little bit... I freely acknowledge you could be right, and so could I, we can't see the future, and don't know Del Zotto well enough to be sure of his personal drive.

My argument is that we have an asset (so I obviously don't think Del Z sucks) that we can sell high on to address other needs because he's something NYR can live without.

If he ups his defensive game and scores 40 + points every year, that could turn out to be a mistake, but I'm making a judgment based on what I've seen from him over multiple years that he probably will not do so - and will likely start declining in value rapidly once the 'he's XX yrs old' point no longer holds.

If it weren't for the cap I wouldn't take this point of view. But because Del Z can point to the numbers you did, he's going to get some money in his next contract.

Some high scoring defensemen that are not untouchable assets from recent years:
Liles
Visnovsky
Garrison
Bouwmeester
Kaberle
Kuba
Gardiner
White
Enstrom
Ehrhoff
Campbell
Wideman
Johnson
Carle
Franson
Gonchar
Goligoski

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