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Old
10-17-2013, 10:59 AM
  #101
KreiMeARiver
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Would it surprise you if he was?

Honestly people want to downplay the Russian factor, but realistically as long as there is a very popular league that pays handsomely right in their backyards, I don't see why it shouldn't be considered a concern.

Ilya Kovalchuk was a successful NHL star and he still ran off.


Yes, I think as situations like this arise around unhappy Russian players rumors will get started, but honestly even if they are just rumors do you really want to risk losing assets on a player that is a candidate for leaving the NHL?

I don't. Sorry, no thanks.
He also saw that his team was on the decline. But yeah, I agree. If you can get paid the same amount (or more) in your own country, and you aren't close to a Cup, why wouldn't you bolt?

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10-17-2013, 12:53 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The Rangers can sign Moore to a 2 year bridge contract next summer. Del Zotto will require a longer and more lucrative commitment.
One that takes him to UFA status quickly is an option too.

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10-17-2013, 02:39 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
One that takes him to UFA status quickly is an option too.
Del Zotto is two years away from group III. This year is five. He needs 7 accrued years. 40 games on the active roster is one accrued year. He reached those levels in his first 4. Del Zotto can be a group III at 26 with 7 accrued years.

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Old
10-17-2013, 05:55 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
Every 23 year old defensemen ever has never hit their ceiling by that age? That seems like a big leap to me. I would bet a million dollars there have been a lot of players who fizzled out by 23 because it was clear they were not going to make it in the NHL or pro hockey. Of course Del Zotto is going to get better. He's shown he is a capable NHL defensemen and thus will continue playing hockey. It's pretty obvious the more you do something the better at it you will get. It's not the question of will DZ get better, again, unless he falls off a cliff that one is obvious. The real question is, HOW MUCH better will Del Zotto get and in my opinion (love it or hate it) he's not going to be the PPQB stud he was drafted to be. If I am wrong, great, but until then onus is on him to prove he is still developing and can take his game to the next level. Sorry for not comprehending your ridiculous claim that no 23 year old in history stopped developing or hit their ceiling.
You didn't comprehend the concept of hyperbole. Yes, I'm sure you could find a few defensemen who topped out at age 23. My point is that it's an oddity (an absurdly rare one at that). You and others assume that it is SO likely that we need to move him now, "before anyone else realizes it." It's an absurd idea.

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Again, with the stats you can extrapolate and prorate all day and it changes nothing. Until John Moore plays 150 more games you cannot compare him to a 250 game MDZ fairly or accurately. Maybe Moore got a slower start for X amount of reasons. Maybe if he is given the same minutes and played in similar situations as Michael for the next 150 games he will prove to be better. Comparing stats is disingenous and misleading. We will see.
First, you complained about the stats I posted because Moore didn't have as many games. When I pointed out the huge (and it really was huge) difference in production relative to games played, you changed your stance to the ever popular stats don't matter. Do you intend to change your view every time I point out how misguided your view of the moment is? Also, you do realize that Moore would need to score about 20 goals and a 100 points in those 150 games, right? You certainly seem to have lofty expectations for the kid, particularly considering he's almost 23, and thus likely to never get any better, right?

Moore is a very nice player to have, but he's not even close to unseating Del Zotto. You want proof? Look at the minutes. In a game where Del Zotto wasn't even playing AND where he scored himself a nice goal, AV still gave Moore 3rd pair minutes. He didn't up Moore's minutes to cover for MDZ. He upped the minutes of Staal/Girardi/McD. That should tell you something about what the coach/team thinks about the player.

I like Moore. He's an elite 3rd pair guy with solid 2nd pair upside. That said, he's also got the worst case of Shiny New Toy syndrome that I've seen around here in years.

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10-17-2013, 06:05 PM
  #105
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Yeah it's sad that some people are willing to compare Moore to Del Zotto. He's got a long way to go.

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10-17-2013, 06:08 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fleury4ever View Post
Feel free to relax a little bit... I freely acknowledge you could be right, and so could I, we can't see the future, and don't know Del Zotto well enough to be sure of his personal drive.

My argument is that we have an asset (so I obviously don't think Del Z sucks) that we can sell high on to address other needs because he's something NYR can live without.
Something NYR can live without based on what? As I asked before, please tell me how many 40 point defensemen this team has had in the last 20 years or so. I'll give you a hint, you can count them on one hand, and all of those players were older and putting up an aberration of a season. People keep on saying we don't need him, but we have nobody to replace him. People say Moore is the replacement, but Moore has zero track record of putting up any kind of regular point production. People say we can just go pick a PMD up anywhere--I ask why you assume that to be so easy considering the team has been trying to do that ever since Leetch left, and the only player to succeed is the one you want to get rid of.

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If he ups his defensive game and scores 40 + points every year, that could turn out to be a mistake, but I'm making a judgment based on what I've seen from him over multiple years that he probably will not do so - and will likely start declining in value rapidly once the 'he's XX yrs old' point no longer holds.
Based on what? His defense has improved every year, and his point production has been at a 35-40 point pace in three of his four seasons.


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If it weren't for the cap I wouldn't take this point of view. But because Del Z can point to the numbers you did, he's going to get some money in his next contract.
You mean that salary cap that is likely to go up by quite a bit next year? The one where we have absurd amounts of space? The salary cap is not an issue at all (I have no idea how anyone thinks it would be).


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Some high scoring defensemen that are not untouchable assets from recent years:
Liles
Visnovsky
Garrison
Bouwmeester
Kaberle
Kuba
Gardiner
White
Enstrom
Ehrhoff
Campbell
Wideman
Johnson
Carle
Franson
Gonchar
Goligoski
The problem with your list is that most of those guys fall into three categories:

1- Guys who have never been as good as MDZ is now.
2- Guys who were worse than MDZ is now at the time they were traded (Gonchar, for example).
3- Guys who are on par or a little better, but who will cost a ton to acquire (likely whatever we'd get for Del Zotto +)--thus defeating the entire point.

There is nothing wrong with being patient with a young player who has shown consistent improvement. I know it flies in the face of NY fandom, but you should give it a try. The team seems to be of the same opinion.

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10-17-2013, 06:34 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
First, you complained about the stats I posted because Moore didn't have as many games. When I pointed out the huge (and it really was huge) difference in production relative to games played, you changed your stance to the ever popular stats don't matter. Do you intend to change your view every time I point out how misguided your view of the moment is? Also, you do realize that Moore would need to score about 20 goals and a 100 points in those 150 games, right? You certainly seem to have lofty expectations for the kid, particularly considering he's almost 23, and thus likely to never get any better, right?
I said comparing the stats as they stand is unfair, never did I say they didn't matter. You continued to attempt to shove stats down my throat, again, that are disingenuous to use because of the large discrepancy between the two players in NHL games played. The stats matter, they matter when they are even all things considered. Otherwise you are trying to project and use numbers without any basis in reality. You know damn well if I were to extrapolate stats for Moore based on a small sample size and claim his production is better than DZ (like this season so far for instance) I would be burned at the stake. So why is okay to do the opposite?

You also cannot just look at stats alone. What will Moore's game look like along the way? Will he be more consistent than Del Zotto, will he be better on both sides of the puck? Will he see PK time? Even if he doesn't match DZ's offensive production in 250 games, it will not tell the whole story. Again, we will see.

You can also stop with the 23 crap and putting more words in my mouth. I never said a 23 year old cannot improve. I said HOW MUCH WILL HE IMPROVE? I also said it was possible that some players hit ceilings by 23, not that either of the two in question have or will.

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Moore is a very nice player to have, but he's not even close to unseating Del Zotto. You want proof? Look at the minutes. In a game where Del Zotto wasn't even playing AND where he scored himself a nice goal, AV still gave Moore 3rd pair minutes. He didn't up Moore's minutes to cover for MDZ. He upped the minutes of Staal/Girardi/McD. That should tell you something about what the coach/team thinks about the player.
Yeah it should, it should tell you that John Moore is still new to the team and MDZ was an established 4 year "vet." He is testing the water with Moore and AV has not yet even begun to leave his fingerprints on this team. The amount of ice time Moore received last night says little to nothing in how AV sees him. I guess I should argue that because he gave Moore first line PP minutes that means he obviously trusts him as the new PPQB.

Quote:
I like Moore. He's an elite 3rd pair guy with solid 2nd pair upside. That said, he's also got the worst case of Shiny New Toy syndrome that I've seen around here in years.
Not even close, that goes to Brassard and Dorsett. Moore has gotten little praise and assumptions of what he will be in NY compared to the other players.

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10-17-2013, 08:57 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
I said comparing the stats as they stand is unfair, never did I say they didn't matter. You continued to attempt to shove stats down my throat, again, that are disingenuous to use because of the large discrepancy between the two players in NHL games played. The stats matter, they matter when they are even all things considered. Otherwise you are trying to project and use numbers without any basis in reality. You know damn well if I were to extrapolate stats for Moore based on a small sample size and claim his production is better than DZ (like this season so far for instance) I would be burned at the stake. So why is okay to do the opposite?
Yeah, you would be burned at the stake. Largely because you seem to think comparing players based on a 6-game sample is the same thing as comparing players based on more than 100 games played. I have no idea how to even respond to that.

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You also cannot just look at stats alone. What will Moore's game look like along the way? Will he be more consistent than Del Zotto, will he be better on both sides of the puck? Will he see PK time? Even if he doesn't match DZ's offensive production in 250 games, it will not tell the whole story. Again, we will see.
In general, I would agree with this, but the argument people keep making is that Del Zotto should be traded because A- he can't get shots on goal and B- because John Moore is apparently going to replace him. Del Zotto has put more shots on goal during the games that they have both been Rangers, and you can't say that a player (Moore) is going to replace another player's (MDZ) production, and then say that you have to ignore...the (lack of) production.

Quote:
You can also stop with the 23 crap and putting more words in my mouth. I never said a 23 year old cannot improve. I said HOW MUCH WILL HE IMPROVE? I also said it was possible that some players hit ceilings by 23, not that either of the two in question have or will.
No, I don't think I will stop with the 23 "crap." It isn't crap just because it's true and you don't want it to be. Also, one of the reasons I keep bringing it up is because the same people LOVE to say Del Zotto has hit his ceiling and Moore will develop into a player he's never shown himself to be. Claiming that Del Zotto won't get better and that Moore will develop into a top pair guy is ABSURD when they are the same age.

Quote:
Yeah it should, it should tell you that John Moore is still new to the team and MDZ was an established 4 year "vet." He is testing the water with Moore and AV has not yet even begun to leave his fingerprints on this team. The amount of ice time Moore received last night says little to nothing in how AV sees him. I guess I should argue that because he gave Moore first line PP minutes that means he obviously trusts him as the new PPQB.
This is a massive reach and you know it. Why did Fast get a spot over Kreider or Powe? The latter two have more of a track record than Fast. Moore and Del Zotto have the exact same history with AV, and it's pretty clear who AV sees as the better defenseman. And again, my point wasn't even about head to head TOI (which MDZ wins), but about the fact that, without MDZ playing, Moore still didn't get that ice time. When a coach shortens his bench rather than promoting a player, that has nothing to do with a player "not having fingerprints" in a team (itself a ridiculous claim. This isn't a rookie here. Moore is 22 years old with more than 100 NHL games).

Quote:
Not even close, that goes to Brassard and Dorsett. Moore has gotten little praise and assumptions of what he will be in NY compared to the other players.
I don't see all that much love for Dorsett (the exact opposite, actually). As for Brassard, if people were saying that we should trade Stepan because Brassard will take the spot soon anyways, then you would have a point.

People see in Moore what they want/hope to see. That's not a good thing, because it's just going to make you all hate him when he ends up being what he actually is.

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10-17-2013, 09:19 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
In general, I would agree with this, but the argument people keep making is that Del Zotto should be traded because A- he can't get shots on goal and B- because John Moore is apparently going to replace him. Del Zotto has put more shots on goal during the games that they have both been Rangers, and you can't say that a player (Moore) is going to replace another player's (MDZ) production, and then say that you have to ignore...the (lack of) production.
Getting shots on goal alone is a bad reason I agree. I also agree John Moore shouldn't be looked at as a replacement, but an alternative. If I am advocating trading DZ it would be because he would be more valuable to the team being dealt based on his potential, rather than whatever he actually is. Not because he can easily be replaced or anything like that. The injuries to the D last year and prior show that the NHL caliber depth is not enough to be giving up DZ without a replacement, which there is none at the moment because even Moore was capable, who then replaces him? Again, I'm only trading DZ if the return is too good to pass up, but I am not very optimistic about him reaching his ceiling mostly because he seems to have confidence issues which to me are a huge red flag.

Quote:
No, I don't think I will stop with the 23 "crap." It isn't crap just because it's true and you don't want it to be. Also, one of the reasons I keep bringing it up is because the same people LOVE to say Del Zotto has hit his ceiling and Moore will develop into a player he's never shown himself to be. Claiming that Del Zotto won't get better and that Moore will develop into a top pair guy is ABSURD when they are the same age.
Again I agree that is a double-standard and a bad one at that. For me it's a matter of reaching potential. they both have an equal chance of developing in to what they were projected to be, but again, I just don't have much faith in DZ. Moore has plenty to prove but he has yet to be given the opportunity MDZ has. I would like to see how he handles being given similar responsibilities.

Quote:
This is a massive reach and you know it. Why did Fast get a spot over Kreider or Powe? The latter two have more of a track record than Fast. Moore and Del Zotto have the exact same history with AV, and it's pretty clear who AV sees as the better defenseman. And again, my point wasn't even about head to head TOI (which MDZ wins), but about the fact that, without MDZ playing, Moore still didn't get that ice time. When a coach shortens his bench rather than promoting a player, that has nothing to do with a player "not having fingerprints" in a team (itself a ridiculous claim. This isn't a rookie here. Moore is 22 years old with more than 100 NHL games).
Moore and DZ have the same track record with AV, but not with the Rangers. I can't imagine DZ doesn't get a bigger benefit of the doubt and also less pressure to perform in his role simply because his tenure in NY has been much longer. I don't disagree that AV probably feels DZ is the better defensemen coming in to the season, (and he should be with a lot more NHL experience) but my point was AV hasn't had enough time to get HIS fingerprints on the team and what he sees when taking over the team will be much different by the end of this season. Moore is definitely not a rookie, but he will be given more opportunities here in NY he was not previously. Maybe he'll run with it.

Quote:
I don't see all that much love for Dorsett (the exact opposite, actually). As for Brassard, if people were saying that we should trade Stepan because Brassard will take the spot soon anyways, then you would have a point.

People see in Moore what they want/hope to see. That's not a good thing, because it's just going to make you all hate him when he ends up being what he actually is.
I just meant at the time of the trade. Brassard was replacing Richards and instantly becoming the 2C, Dorsett was going to be Prust 2.0 and the spark the team needed in the bottom 6. People were gushing over those two, a couple of people said Moore was a great skater. That was about it.

Right now, yes, Dorsett is falling out of favor, Brassard is still about where he was. Moore has onlt really gained any traction because DZ has had an abysmal start to this season. So has most of the team though, so that cannot be ignored. The problem with DZ however is once he gets in his head after a slump, it tends to worsen in a bad way. Hopefully he'll bounce back soon.

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10-19-2013, 02:44 PM
  #110
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Jamie McBain is having a tough time getting into the Buffalo lineup.

Would be very willing to send them DZ for McBain ++

Shoots right.

Staal - G
McD - Stralman
Moore - McBain
Falk

Yeah... I can roll with that.

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10-19-2013, 03:03 PM
  #111
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McBain is their worst man outside of Sulzer. I've been to every Sabres game so far. You don't want him.

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10-19-2013, 03:06 PM
  #112
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McBain is their worst man outside of Sulzer. I've been to every Sabres game so far. You don't want him.
Was hoping you'd show up in this thread with a little Buffalo perspective! Thanks.

I feel like McBain's got talent though. Maybe a change of scenery would do him good? Not to mention adding a RHD, and Buffalo would have to add a piece in that deal too. Could be enticing.

I mean... if Del Zotto can't even crack the lineup over Falk... (this is tongue in cheek, everyone. relax).

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10-19-2013, 03:23 PM
  #113
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Ranger Boy said it best in another thread...wait until Thanksgiving to see what you really have. The first 10 games of the season are generally irrelevant. If they were, the San Jose Sharks would be a dynasty. New coach, new style, injuries to key players and a long road trip all make the first month highly unpredictable. Kick the tires now to see who will be available after the 1st Quarter and be ready to move once you size up your team. This is probably why some of the young guns (i.e. Kreider, Kristo) are staying in Hartford -- see what you have both there and here.

I remember 1994 vividly -- 4-5-1 start under Keenan, broken stick in practice incident and then the Patrick-Turcotte-Larmer trade. Not much different than what I expect to have happen here this year.

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10-19-2013, 03:30 PM
  #114
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I never liked him, but you get noosed for that around here

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10-19-2013, 05:47 PM
  #115
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MDZ to BUF for Myers+

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10-19-2013, 07:22 PM
  #116
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MDZ to BUF for Myers+
Myers sucks and he makes $6 million a year. This team doesn't need another soft big guy.

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10-19-2013, 07:52 PM
  #117
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Myers sucks and he makes $6 million a year. This team doesn't need another soft big guy.
I think Myers will turn it back on very soon. Both Ruff and Regier are mishandling him. He should look more alert but Buffalo has a bad locker room environment. I think Myers would light it up in NYR. Plus Myers contract isn't really that bad. Front loaded and the cap ceiling is expected to increase.

Of course there's no way to prove any of the things I just said, but I have a great feeling about Myer's future.

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10-19-2013, 07:54 PM
  #118
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Del Zotto has been one of the better Rangers tonight.

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10-19-2013, 07:57 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by LeetchisGod View Post
Myers sucks and he makes $6 million a year. This team doesn't need another soft big guy.
And I would rather have a soft 6'8" player on my team than a soft 5'8" player. Just because a skater is big doesn't mean they have to make gigantic contacts for it to be a benefit. Larger stick reach, bigger strides, and height advantage are all benefits that a large player has over a small player no matter how much more physical a small player is.

And Myers is like Boyle. They don't hit to knock the other guy out, they hit to take them out of the play.

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Del Zotto has been one of the better Rangers tonight.
Made me laugh harder than it should have.

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10-19-2013, 08:34 PM
  #120
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I think Myers will turn it back on very soon. Both Ruff and Regier are mishandling him. He should look more alert but Buffalo has a bad locker room environment. I think Myers would light it up in NYR. Plus Myers contract isn't really that bad. Front loaded and the cap ceiling is expected to increase.

Of course there's no way to prove any of the things I just said, but I have a great feeling about Myer's future.
Because underperforming players always come here and play better.

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10-19-2013, 08:47 PM
  #121
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Because underperforming players always come here and play better.
God, I hate this team.

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10-19-2013, 09:12 PM
  #122
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Ranger Boy said it best in another thread...wait until Thanksgiving to see what you really have. The first 10 games of the season are generally irrelevant. If they were, the San Jose Sharks would be a dynasty. New coach, new style, injuries to key players and a long road trip all make the first month highly unpredictable. Kick the tires now to see who will be available after the 1st Quarter and be ready to move once you size up your team. This is probably why some of the young guns (i.e. Kreider, Kristo) are staying in Hartford -- see what you have both there and here.

I remember 1994 vividly -- 4-5-1 start under Keenan, broken stick in practice incident and then the Patrick-Turcotte-Larmer trade. Not much different than what I expect to have happen here this year.
Who has to sacrifice a stick?

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10-21-2013, 10:42 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Del Zotto has been one of the better Rangers tonight.
his season stats so far.

5 games played.

zero points
-6
7 shots.

not
so
good.

seriously, i believe its time to really truly look at a package of del zotto and kreider. what would those 2 bring in a deal for some scoring help and/or a pmd.

i would add mcilrath to that list but i just dont think theres enough value there.

change of scenery time.

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10-24-2013, 08:48 PM
  #124
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He sucks. It just hasn't worked out for him or here. Maybe he needs a change of scenery. Trade him before there is no more "upside".

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10-24-2013, 08:53 PM
  #125
McSauer
Defense Wins Games
 
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Providence, RI
Country: United States
Posts: 348
vCash: 500
That looked like his worst game as a Ranger, wow...trade him while we can still get something of value for him...

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