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Kreider and Mashinter recalled to Rangers

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Old
10-20-2013, 08:05 PM
  #76
alkurtz
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Originally Posted by SERE 24 View Post
I just don't quite understand why Sather ever signed a guy like Pyatt in the first place. What was appealing about him, at this stage in his career? Big, slow, soft, unproductive. All words I would have used to describe him before he came to NY. And yet, here he is, averaging 15+ minutes a night for our team a couple of years later.
We've been on an endless quest to find legit 3rd line players. That is why we signed Pouliot this summer. Legit 3rd line forwards are hard to find: guys who can be 12-15 goal, 15-20 assist guys who can also play defense,

The reason there are so hard to find is that inevitably, injuries force some of these guys to higher lines where they are not really able, skills wise to play. 4th line guys are then elevated to the 3rd line where they are not able to play.

The only teams that seem to have real legit 3rd lines are teams that are, for the most part, injury free. Guys stay in their roles; roles that match their skill set.

Sometimes it seems as if legit 3rd line forwards are as hard to find as skilled 1st line forwards. Pyatt was a decent 3rd line player earlier in his career but now he is just to slow to play regularly.

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10-20-2013, 08:05 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Your amazing prediction wouldve probably meant a little more if they had any sort of choices.
Our depth seemed pretty good to start the season. What happened?

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10-20-2013, 08:08 PM
  #78
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Our depth seemed pretty good to start the season. What happened?
People assumed our depth was good and they were proven wrong. It's tough for any team to lose 3 of your top-six wingers, but this team has proven year after year that it's "depth" is nothing more than names that look decent on paper.

You shouldn't have to scrape the bottom of the UFA pool each season to fill out the bottom-six. At some point, the kids we have are going to have to start filling these holes.

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10-20-2013, 08:11 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Our depth seemed pretty good to start the season. What happened?
Pretty much everybody is playing to the tune of reality and not to the inflated expectations that flew around here.

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10-20-2013, 08:12 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
People assumed our depth was good and they were proven wrong. It's tough for any team to lose 3 of your top-six wingers, but this team has proven year after year that it's "depth" is nothing more than names that look decent on paper.

You shouldn't have to scrape the bottom of the UFA pool each season to fill out the bottom-six. At some point, the kids we have are going to have to start filling these holes.
I agree. But the depth looked good when our young guys were slotted in the line up and the bottom of the UFA fa's we signed were the scratches that provided the depth if we needed it.

Seems AV mixed up the 2.

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10-20-2013, 08:15 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
We've been on an endless quest to find legit 3rd line players. That is why we signed Pouliot this summer. Legit 3rd line forwards are hard to find: guys who can be 12-15 goal, 15-20 assist guys who can also play defense,

The reason there are so hard to find is that inevitably, injuries force some of these guys to higher lines where they are not really able, skills wise to play. 4th line guys are then elevated to the 3rd line where they are not able to play.

The only teams that seem to have real legit 3rd lines are teams that are, for the most part, injury free. Guys stay in their roles; roles that match their skill set.

Sometimes it seems as if legit 3rd line forwards are as hard to find as skilled 1st line forwards. Pyatt was a decent 3rd line player earlier in his career but now he is just to slow to play regularly.
That doesn't address why we signed Pyatt at all. Everything you wrote, while accurate, is not news. My question was why Sather ever thought Pyatt was still a worthwhile player. At his peak he was a decent third liner. For the past five years he's been a slow, soft shell of the player he was once expected to be and occasionally showed flashes of. My question was, what is Sather looking at when judging talent and who he feels will be a good fit for the team. How does he conclude that a plodding slow guy like Pyatt who plays like he's half his actual size is going to be a good addition to our third line when he's barely a fourth liner anymore at this stage of his career.

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10-20-2013, 08:21 PM
  #82
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injuries have away of thinning out your depth.

while you cannot discount the damage loosing nasher, cally and hags does to your top 9, it sure would have helped had we been able to develop some youth (affordable) scoring.

this team continues to suffer from a complete lack of talent.

blame our draft folks. thats where affordable core talent comes from.


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10-20-2013, 08:26 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
We've been on an endless quest to find legit 3rd line players. That is why we signed Pouliot this summer. Legit 3rd line forwards are hard to find: guys who can be 12-15 goal, 15-20 assist guys who can also play defense,

The reason there are so hard to find is that inevitably, injuries force some of these guys to higher lines where they are not really able, skills wise to play. 4th line guys are then elevated to the 3rd line where they are not able to play.

The only teams that seem to have real legit 3rd lines are teams that are, for the most part, injury free. Guys stay in their roles; roles that match their skill set.

Sometimes it seems as if legit 3rd line forwards are as hard to find as skilled 1st line forwards. Pyatt was a decent 3rd line player earlier in his career but now he is just to slow to play regularly.
Hagelin is the perfect 3rd liner.imo. Problem is we lack top end talent, so he's in the top 6.

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10-20-2013, 08:37 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by SERE 24 View Post
That doesn't address why we signed Pyatt at all. Everything you wrote, while accurate, is not news. My question was why Sather ever thought Pyatt was still a worthwhile player. At his peak he was a decent third liner. For the past five years he's been a slow, soft shell of the player he was once expected to be and occasionally showed flashes of. My question was, what is Sather looking at when judging talent and who he feels will be a good fit for the team. How does he conclude that a plodding slow guy like Pyatt who plays like he's half his actual size is going to be a good addition to our third line when he's barely a fourth liner anymore at this stage of his career.
It's been said numerous times in the past few weeks. Pure laziness.

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10-20-2013, 08:50 PM
  #85
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Our drafting has been more than fine the last 5 years. Since the 2007 draft, we've gotten:

Cherepanov (2007 1st round pick, projected first liner before his death)
Hagelin (2007 6th round pick, great value)
Del Zotto (2008 first round pick. Though he's frustrating at times, it was a good pick)
Stepan (2008 2nd round pick. Great pick, probably best of the round.)
Grachev (2008 3rd round. Had high value at one time, brought back another 3rd rounder so a neutral selection, even though we could have gotten a 1st at one point)
Kundartek (2008 late 3rd. Never played for us but has gotten time with WSH.)
Dale Weise (2008 4th round pick. Plays for the Canucks. Good value for the slot.)
Kreider (2009 1st round pick. Jury is out with how well he'll pan out but there's been major hype around him for a long time. This is the type of high risk, high reward pick that's required to get us top talent.)
Werek (2009 2nd round pick. Traded for Lindberg, who looks like he'll contribute for us as soon as this season.)
McIlrath (2010 1st round pick. No one is sure what we'll get at the NHL level but he could be the type of defensive, crease-clearing bruiser we've all been clamoring for.)
Christian Thomas (2010 2nd round pick. Not sure what he'll do as a pro but he netted us Danny Kristo, who's doing very well in the AHL and should get time with the Rangers this year.)
Yogan (2010 3rd round pick. People seem satisfied enough with his development. Considering the slot, pans out to be a decent pick at worst.)
Jesper Fast (2010 6th round pick. His development has been great. This looks like a great pick at this point.)
JT Miller (2011 1st round pick. Already an NHL quality player. Time will tell what kind of player we've gotten with Miller but I have high hopes.)
Brady Skjei (2012 1st round pick. Is developing fine, a good asset to have going forward)
Boo Nieves (2012 2nd round pick. Still early but has played great since being drafted.)


Considering the slots we've drafted at, we've done very well. We'll probably never get a top pick to get elite talent but as long as we continue to get good value with most picks, we'll be fine. You can use compiled talent to get a star. We used Dubi and Anisimov to bring us Nash. This doesn't even include a lot of our more recent picks where late rounders still have a chance to pan out. We get a couple of NHLers with each draft, that's all you can ask for.

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10-20-2013, 08:52 PM
  #86
alkurtz
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Originally Posted by SERE 24 View Post
That doesn't address why we signed Pyatt at all. Everything you wrote, while accurate, is not news. My question was why Sather ever thought Pyatt was still a worthwhile player. At his peak he was a decent third liner. For the past five years he's been a slow, soft shell of the player he was once expected to be and occasionally showed flashes of. My question was, what is Sather looking at when judging talent and who he feels will be a good fit for the team. How does he conclude that a plodding slow guy like Pyatt who plays like he's half his actual size is going to be a good addition to our third line when he's barely a fourth liner anymore at this stage of his career.
Even though Pyatt's production the year before we signed him fell significantly, he had a very good playoff and was a contributor to the Coyotes long playoff run. Like much else, signing him was a gamble (at the time I gave it a big meh) that he still could be productive. His play has deteriorated, certainly because of age, since then. Players like him are always in demand because of the lack of decent 3rd line wingers.

Agreed, it was a bad move. I always rather give younger players a chance to win those spots but most GMs, not only Sather, rather go with vets. Believe me, I'm not defending Sather, I wish he were long gone. But from his point of view, I understand it. He saw a veteran player who could add depth to a team poised to compete for the Cup (boy does that seem like a long time ago). He was not expected to log big minutes on the top 2 lines. Seeing him starting on our top line against the Devs was painful. That's not what he was signed for. Of course, Sather certainly relied on his NHL scouts for the evaluation. Sometimes it seems as if once teams explore the free agent market and need depth to fill our a roster, the pickings are slim and guys get signed. If you want to say, as a general rule of thumb, to avoid signing over 30 vets who are showing signs of aging, I totally agree. But that is not how the league works.

Now we are stuck with this guy for the year unless he gets so bad that he is sent to Hartford.

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10-20-2013, 08:52 PM
  #87
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Oh lawdy here come the reinforcements.

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Old
10-20-2013, 08:54 PM
  #88
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Kreider should be the one getting time with richards instead of pyatt. Kreider has a hell of a shot at least give him someone that can feed him (AKA NOT BRIAN BOYLE)

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10-20-2013, 08:56 PM
  #89
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Injuries are a part of the game, and they suck. With that said, I'd much rather see our roster filled with young guys with energy who will inevitably make mistakes (Kreider, Miller, Fast) as opposed to sluggish bottom-6 bums like Pyatt. Let the kids play.

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10-20-2013, 08:56 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Callahan Auto View Post
Our drafting has been more than fine the last 5 years. Since the 2007 draft, we've gotten:

Cherepanov (2007 1st round pick, projected first liner before his death)
Hagelin (2007 6th round pick, great value)
Del Zotto (2008 first round pick. Though he's frustrating at times, it was a good pick)
Stepan (2008 2nd round pick. Great pick, probably best of the round.)
Grachev (2008 3rd round. Had high value at one time, brought back another 3rd rounder so a neutral selection, even though we could have gotten a 1st at one point)
Kundartek (2008 late 3rd. Never played for us but has gotten time with WSH.)
Dale Weise (2008 4th round pick. Plays for the Canucks. Good value for the slot.)
Kreider (2009 1st round pick. Jury is out with how well he'll pan out but there's been major hype around him for a long time. This is the type of high risk, high reward pick that's required to get us top talent.)
Werek (2009 2nd round pick. Traded for Lindberg, who looks like he'll contribute for us as soon as this season.)
McIlrath (2010 1st round pick. No one is sure what we'll get at the NHL level but he could be the type of defensive, crease-clearing bruiser we've all been clamoring for.)
Christian Thomas (2010 2nd round pick. Not sure what he'll do as a pro but he netted us Danny Kristo, who's doing very well in the AHL and should get time with the Rangers this year.)
Yogan (2010 3rd round pick. People seem satisfied enough with his development. Considering the slot, pans out to be a decent pick at worst.)
Jesper Fast (2010 6th round pick. His development has been great. This looks like a great pick at this point.)
JT Miller (2011 1st round pick. Already an NHL quality player. Time will tell what kind of player we've gotten with Miller but I have high hopes.)
Brady Skjei (2012 1st round pick. Is developing fine, a good asset to have going forward)
Boo Nieves (2012 2nd round pick. Still early but has played great since being drafted.)


Considering the slots we've drafted at, we've done very well. We'll probably never get a top pick to get elite talent but as long as we continue to get good value with most picks, we'll be fine. You can use compiled talent to get a star. We used Dubi and Anisimov to bring us Nash. This doesn't even include a lot of our more recent picks where late rounders still have a chance to pan out. We get a couple of NHLers with each draft, that's all you can ask for.
i see a bunch of reaches, a whole lot of over valuing marginal results, some continued hoping that potential = production, a few awful swings and misses and not one elite offensive talent in the whole bunch.

sorry, not impressed.

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10-20-2013, 09:04 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
i see a bunch of reaches, a whole lot of over valuing marginal results, some continued hoping that potential = production, a few awful swings and misses and not one elite offensive talent in the whole bunch.

sorry, not impressed.
The Rangers could not have done much better with the pics we've made. The only 'reach' is McIlrath and that's still not confirmed. Of course there's a lot of conjecture based on potential, you can't judge most picks made in the last 3 years. You're just assuming that they're going to be bad even though most guys have developed as well as you could hope.

Stepan might not be an elite offensive talent but he's close. Very few guys who are elite offensively have been picked out of the top 5.

You have insane expectations if you think we've done poorly. You can't find many other teams that have done as well with the picks we've gotten (most of our "early picks" were late 1sts). There was a major shift in the way the Rangers used drafting around 2006 and it has already helped this team. It will continue to pay dividends and already has.

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10-20-2013, 09:32 PM
  #92
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As much as some people would like to believe they aren't, picks like Jamie Benn (2007, 5th Rd) and Brendan Gallagher (2010, 5th Rd) are complete draft anomalies, and are the complete exception to the rule. Who would you have drafted in 2011 over Miller? Saad? In hindsight, it's easy to say that. 2012? Matteau? Please. 2013, we didn't even have a first, so they swung for the fences at late round hopefuls, which is all you can do with no first. If you're pessimistic about this team's drafting in the last few years, I don't really know what to tell you. Because somebody needs to find me these obvious late round superstars we keep missing out on.

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10-20-2013, 09:38 PM
  #93
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Not happy about Kreider being rushed up here. If he comes up and only plays bottom 6 minutes with the likes of Boyle, Dorsett, and Pyatt, I'm going to lose it

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10-20-2013, 09:40 PM
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Not happy about Kreider being rushed up here. If he comes up and only plays bottom 6 minutes with the likes of Boyle, Dorsett, and Pyatt, I'm going to lose it
I'd like to believe AV realized by now Pyatt in the top 6 isn't working, and that since it can't get any worse, just let the kids try out the top 6. It literally can't be any worse.......if Kreider gets 4th line minutes I will punch a lot of things.

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10-20-2013, 09:42 PM
  #95
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Should be Mash and Haley up. Kreider, Miller and Fast should all be getting a 20-30 game stretch in HFD just like Hags and McD did. Dumb player development.
Absolutely right. This organization really has no clue.

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10-20-2013, 09:44 PM
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Face it, the call ups today and whatever happens in the next two-three weeks is to try and get the Rangers through until Nash, Hags, and Cally are healthy...FAST is a pitiful NHLer right now and belongs in the AHL....MIller can crash and bang in the NHL but that's it...Both should be in the AHL playing 20 minutes and in all scenarios.....but they stay because the cupboard is bare (thanks Sather)......and nobody else is ready..

Except maybe KREIDER...I confess I have not seen him in the AHL this year but I liked what I saw of him at the end of last year...seemed like he had learned...And then he screwed the pooch this training camp...Hopefully he needs to be smacked down to find his way back up...He's worth another shot because his combo of speed and skill is desperately needed...

MASHINTER? Eh, what the hell...I have no problem with him as a 12th-13th forward for a few games as he is the best fighter the Ranger's org has...and it might be better watching him fight somebody rather than Dorsett do his Human punching bag impersonation....Who plays where is another story as we have so many forwards playing like crap...Not unitil you have depth and healthy players where Pysie-Boitano-Mash/Dorset as a 4th line are you really getting anywhere

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10-20-2013, 09:51 PM
  #97
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Absolutely right. This organization really has no clue.
I think the Rangers need to take a page out of the Flyers book, (I watch a lot of Philly games because of location so I know the team well enough) and throw their prospects in with the lions or so to speak. Matt Read is an example that comes to mind, they saw he had talent, and gave him top 6 minutes. Brayden Schenn is an example of what not to do, they sent him down to Juniors in an attempt to not "rush" him, and then he floated between 4th line NHL and top 6 AHL. And look where the two ended up.

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10-20-2013, 10:10 PM
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If you're going to lose anyway it's best to go down swinging. We're not going to go down swinging with the likes of Powe or Pyatt in the lineup and maybe a few others. Looking at a 9-2 loss followed up by a 6-0 loss and now a 4-0 loss to the last team in the league to win a game and it was like the team mailed in every single one of the above mentioned. Very pitiful. Generated almost no offense--made numerous turnovers (last night it was 9 Rangers to 0 Devils after the first period). This kind of effort against a team like the much hated Devils? It's like these guys are just giving these games away. It's ****ing lame and I can't stand to watch a team that doesn't or won't work hard. Fights might not win games but at least you have to show up for them or get your ass kicked. Seeing anyone show up right now would be a big improvement. That's an argument for Mashinter or Haley.

Richards is just about the only Rangers forward currently in the lineup that has played fairly well. Stepan has no goals 5 assists Brassard has no goals 4 assists. Zuccarello and Pouliot have neither scored nor assisted. These are our best offensive forwards of those who are healthy. 2 of them have to do more. The other 2 need to start doing something at all. This is an argument for Kreider, Hrivik or Kristo whether ready or not.

Looking on towards next season whether AV comes back or not--there are a number of guys the way they're currently playing that might not be back either. Girardi, Zuccarello, Brassard, Del Zotto, Boyle, Pouliot, Stralman, Pyatt, Dorsett. Do these guys want to play here? Better started showing up. Hate to say it but if this team continues to play the way it has--then there should be more call ups--more kids.

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10-20-2013, 10:19 PM
  #99
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AV actually went to Hartford, and watched the Pack, and specifically Kreider, play. The game he saw, Kreider only had a secondary assist, so clearly, AV saw something in Kreider that made him want him in New York.

But no, you guys, who haven't watched a single minute of AHL hockey, know more than the coaches.
This is about as lazy a point as possible. It reeks of the implication that all coaches are perfect and no informed fan can ever be right if a coach makes a decision. Awful point especially based on the reality of the last season and a half but why let reality get in the way of a lazy generalization?

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10-20-2013, 10:50 PM
  #100
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As much as some people would like to believe they aren't, picks like Jamie Benn (2007, 5th Rd) and Brendan Gallagher (2010, 5th Rd) are complete draft anomalies, and are the complete exception to the rule. Who would you have drafted in 2011 over Miller? Saad? In hindsight, it's easy to say that. 2012? Matteau? Please. 2013, we didn't even have a first, so they swung for the fences at late round hopefuls, which is all you can do with no first. If you're pessimistic about this team's drafting in the last few years, I don't really know what to tell you. Because somebody needs to find me these obvious late round superstars we keep missing out on.
I'm generally not pessimistic about the Rangers recent drafting. They have done an admirable job with their early picks from non-premium draft positions, and found several late round gems. That said, I fully believe that the current state of this team is defined by 3 drafts, 1 in which they got incredibly unlucky, and 2 in which they just plain old ****ed up.

2003 - yes, this was a long time ago now, but literally half of that first round are all-stars. I will take the Jessiman regret to my grave since that was the first draft I really paid attention to.

2007 - bad luck, and a tragedy for such a promising young player. I remember my heart racing as Cherry started his fall into our laps - such a bummer.

2010 - I know people like to defend this one, but given the state of the team and the league, you cannot pass up on a talent like Tarasenko for a project defenseman whose player type has been largely marginalized in the modern NHL. That pick was a mistake.

Of course the entire trajectory of the team could/would have been different had they not swung and missed in Jessiman 10 years ago, but even if you take that potential player out of the equation, this current team looks a hell of a lot more balanced and dangerous with the two stud Russian wingers providing secondary (and maybe even primary) scoring.

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