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Old
10-20-2013, 01:47 PM
  #26
True Blue
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
They apply now as they have from the very first year of the Buffoon from Banf-f-f-f...(F Troop any one?).....And seeing TRUEBLUE on here reminds me how long us Ranger fans have had to suffer this incompetent fool.....
Oh, my. The old guard is coming out!!!

Seriously, LM, you underscore my point. The past few years under Tortarella were the exception and not the rule in the Jackass years. We have had to deal with incompetence under Sather, pretty much since he took over. And, by and large, utter frustration since 1995.

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10-20-2013, 01:52 PM
  #27
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How did that NAsh trade cause Richards and Gabs to disappear? Doesn't make sense to me. I think the move was fine and I don't think it did much to the chemistry of the team. They had zero offensive chemistry to begin with and the D was pretty much the same all season last year
The Nash trade was a disruption of the apple cart. It took away some of that "core" that most of us are talking about. And once again, brought in a player who has never played under the pressure of playing in a big city, sports town.

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10-20-2013, 01:58 PM
  #28
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I always felt the PP issues were player issues and not coaching. Didn't think Torts should have been fired
If Torts had focused more on the power play or at least been open to replacing sully as an assitant he may have still been coaching the team.

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10-20-2013, 02:01 PM
  #29
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I always felt the PP issues were player issues and not coaching. Didn't think Torts should have been fired
Even though our PP looks better with AV, and Vancouver's looks awful under Torts, with elite PP personnel?

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10-20-2013, 06:02 PM
  #30
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Come on SBOB, you're not allowed to pull the curtain aside and discover that the Man Behind the Curtain is really the Buffoon from Banff.

Ah, the joys of being a Ranger fan

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10-20-2013, 06:18 PM
  #31
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Jeff Gorton has been in his current role since July 2011. Glen Sather is the boss. It doesn't matter if he has delegated the day to day ops to Gorton or before him Don Maloney. In 2006,Bobby Clarke resigned as Flyers boss. His AGM Paul Holmgren replaced him. He had different views than Clarke. Holmgren's teams made the ECF in 2008 and the Cup finals in 2010. Holmgren made a million trades. He was his own man. Jerry Reese is his own man too. I'm sure he had different views than Ernie but Ernie was the boss. Reese has fielded the worst Giants team since the 1970s. No running backs. No offensive line. No tight end. No pass rushers. Linebackers aren't important in the Giants scheme so Reese gets a pass too there. Reese doesn't talk to the media. He is taking a page from the Sather playbook. No accountability.



http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/gia...om-jerry-reese

Sather has to to go. If he has any self respect,Sather would admit his time running the team is over. He is 70 years old.
This would pertain to the current situation, but it's clear Sather and Dolan are only concerned with making money which does not exactly equate to winning games or building a team that can contend for multiple years. As long as the big bucks keep rolling in, why would he say he's doing anything wrong? To him and Dolan, everything is going just fine. And from a business standpoint, it is. These guys respect money and they're getting all the respect they want from fan wallets. The on-ice product obviously doesn't matter in a city like NYC as the team is the 3rd most profitable in the league or whatever it is. Random people are still going to go to games or buy whatever pieces of merch here and there just based on population and general foot traffic that is the city. Why would they feel any pressure to rebuild the team "correctly"? People are buying tickets, that's "correct" enough for the duo. They don't care about organization history or the city or the fans, they care about the bottom line and nothing but. If you were making whatever it is Sather is making and has made over the last 13 years, would you really say "Oh man, maybe X/Y/Z trades and A/B/C moves weren't the best for the team..I don't want to - nay, cannot - keep doing this to them or all the dedicated fans, it's just not fair"? HELL no. You'd have a cushy 6-figure job. You'd say "Oops that didn't really help the team much, but whatever let's just do something else later..huh? A plan? No, we'll figure out what ever single move we'll make later" as you light your Cubano with $100 bills. The closest Dolan came to caring about hockey was in 11-12 when he mentioned that mysterious offering to Sather if they won a Cup.


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Old
10-20-2013, 06:24 PM
  #32
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Very well said singin.

It's an entire organization of issues.

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Old
10-20-2013, 06:33 PM
  #33
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The product on the ice does matter--if this continues, it will spill over to attendence. The organization doesn't have to worry this year, all the tickets have already been sold, but not having a full house in attendence means less concession stand stuff sold--which is where teams really make their money. And if you think the demand for tickets will remain the same, all you need to do is look back and see what the Garden looked like from 1999-2004 (and forget about selling seasons at a profit, or even face, for crappy games--the way many ticket holders do to be able to afford their season tickets).

And of course, the fans who do continue to go to games will get snarly too--nothing like repeated such and such sucks and chorus after chorus of fire (insert name here).

Yep, people are going to continue to pay top dollar to watch the wheels come off.

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Old
10-20-2013, 06:38 PM
  #34
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The product on the ice does matter--if this continues, it will spill over to attendence. The organization doesn't have to worry this year, all the tickets have already been sold, but not having a full house in attendence means less concession stand stuff sold--which is where teams really make their money. And if you think the demand for tickets will remain the same, all you need to do is look back and see what the Garden looked like from 1999-2004 (and forget about selling seasons at a profit, or even face, for crappy games--the way many ticket holders do to be able to afford their season tickets).

And of course, the fans who do continue to go to games will get snarly too--nothing like repeated such and such sucks and chorus after chorus of fire (insert name here).

Yep, people are going to continue to pay top dollar to watch the wheels come off.
Rangers attendance remained pretty strong through the Dark Ages, from what I remember.

You can find 18,000 suckers in a city of 8M+

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Old
10-20-2013, 06:46 PM
  #35
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The product on the ice does matter--if this continues, it will spill over to attendence. The organization doesn't have to worry this year, all the tickets have already been sold, but not having a full house in attendence means less concession stand stuff sold--which is where teams really make their money. And if you think the demand for tickets will remain the same, all you need to do is look back and see what the Garden looked like from 1999-2004 (and forget about selling seasons at a profit, or even face, for crappy games--the way many ticket holders do to be able to afford their season tickets).

And of course, the fans who do continue to go to games will get snarly too--nothing like repeated such and such sucks and chorus after chorus of fire (insert name here).

Yep, people are going to continue to pay top dollar to watch the wheels come off.
Assuming the capacity at MSG is ~18.2k, they suffered ~100 empty seats during most of the dark ages according to ESPN (only goes back as far as the 00-01 season). Like BRB said, you can find 18k suckers with nothing to do on any given night willing to shell out ~$100/ticket in a city of 8mil.

Not necessarily the same, but a bad on-ice product never slowed down TO fans.

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10-20-2013, 07:18 PM
  #36
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Sorry guys (and any gals), I lived through period as a season ticket holder and I can tell you, they were very good at finding ways to appear to be close to sellouts. The reality was that they were selling season tickets (and not just for the lower bowl) on the spot (there was no waiting list), offering 4 packs around the holidays, etc. And they were unable to raise tickets prices after the summer of 1999 until the year after the lockout (and Dolan's famous 10% reduction). Bottom line, just because some bean counter found a way to get close to 18,200 didn't make it true.

It was such a fun place to be--and the hockey! Nothing like watching Kamensky et al wander around aimlessly.

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10-20-2013, 07:35 PM
  #37
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Agreed . Sather needs to give up GM duties to Gottron ASAP. Stay as President behind the scenes fine

The Nash trade did disrupt team chemistry. To be fair though Dubi is really over paid, Erixon has done nothing yet...........Anisimo has done well for the most part..........losing the first blows...............on paper its not a bad trade when looking at the Nash and Gaborik deals but chemistry goes a long way

Losing Nash, Callahan and Hagelin for long periods is just terrible since its 3 of the top 6 F. Stepan losing most of camp blows

really is the bottom 6 F are blah. Good thing is they are not locked in as Zucc, Pyatt, Pouliott, Boyle , Moore, Asham , Powe can just be let go in the offseason if no one picks it up.

They can still make trades, they can play some kids who hopefully produce............Hartford is off to a great start so that's encouraging

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10-20-2013, 08:15 PM
  #38
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History may look back at the firing of Torts as one of the Rangers biggest mistakes since the signing of Keane and Skrudland or the trading of Mattias Norstrom.

The Nash trade in particular hurt as it disrupted chemistry and took away some of the core.
No.

I don't know how anyone could stand the way this team played under Torts. Torts' firing may be the best thing to happen to this team IN THE LONG RUN because he was able to concoct a winning team and mask the deficiencies in this organization, albeit using a system that made it an absolute chore to watch this team. With Torts it was like we were stuck in neutral; winning games but not performing well enough to win it all. Now that he is gone we can truly see the glaring weakness in the organization and HOPEFULLY changes will be made (won't hold my breath).

That said, obviously Sather needs to go. Gorton shouldn't be blamed for Sather's idiocies. I think Gorton could get this team back on track, but it'll probably take Sather to be six feet under in order to do so.

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10-20-2013, 08:20 PM
  #39
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No.

I don't know how anyone could stand the way this team played under Torts. Torts' firing may be the best thing to happen to this team IN THE LONG RUN because he was able to concoct a winning team and mask the deficiencies in this organization, albeit using a system that made it an absolute chore to watch this team. With Torts it was like we were stuck in neutral; winning games but not performing well enough to win it all. Now that he is gone we can truly see the glaring weakness in the organization and HOPEFULLY changes will be made (won't hold my breath).

That said, obviously Sather needs to go. Gorton shouldn't be blamed for Sather's idiocies. I think Gorton could get this team back on track, but it'll probably take Sather to be six feet under in order to do so.
Couldn't disagree more. Torts team could be frustrating because our offensive talent was lacking but that wasn't actually Torts' fault. Certain key guys never seemed to be able to perform at the same time as others, so we always seemed like a one threat team, but Torts' team had a great identity, you knew they were going to be tough to play against and it was easy to be proud of then and have pride in being a Rangers fan, even if we weren't a powerhouse because we were the blue collar blue shirts.

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10-20-2013, 08:30 PM
  #40
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I would rather watch a team that works hard and wins despite being "boring" 10 times out of 10 over the steaming turd we've gotten to see this year.

I agree Torts system masked roster deficiencies. I disagree that revealing those deficiencies will allow the organization to "see the light" and make any type of long term systematic changes. Instead they will reconsider what immediate stopgap to pursue next to distract the fanbase for a bit.

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10-20-2013, 08:58 PM
  #41
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I agree with everything OP said.

Then again, everyone would agree that winning lotto would be nice. That, like Sather getting fired, is probably never going to happen.

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Old
10-20-2013, 09:54 PM
  #42
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It looks to me were about to take a page from Wang and the Isles...... Im thinking Biron is about to take over as GM now that hes retired

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Old
10-20-2013, 09:55 PM
  #43
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I agree with everything OP said.

Then again, everyone would agree that winning lotto would be nice. That, like Sather getting fired, is probably never going to happen.
Maybe the Fire Sather rally will be more successful the 2nd time around.

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Old
10-20-2013, 09:58 PM
  #44
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No.

I don't know how anyone could stand the way this team played under Torts.
Yea. It really stunk having a prideful team that was competitive. Im glad we've moved on from those days.

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10-20-2013, 10:00 PM
  #45
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Yea. It really stunk having a prideful team that was competitive. Im glad we've moved on from those days.
Hey we got more offense, it's just against us rather than for.

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10-20-2013, 10:09 PM
  #46
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The OP was so accurate, there's no need for anything else to be said after that. What a post.

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10-20-2013, 11:55 PM
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All talk of trades or replacing the coach is simply re-shuffling the deck chair on the Titanic. As long as this current front office remains in power the team will never move beyond what it has been ó a middle of the road team that might win a round of two in the playoffs. Any thought that this team is a Cup contender is delusional.

The GM's lazy, quick fix, smartest-guy-in-the-room mentality has trickled down to every part of this organization ó and that includes the purported draft master Gordie Clarke and the supposed personnel wizard Jeff Gorton. The inability, or unwillingness, to look beyond the season thatís right in front of them is what keeps this the franchise in a constant revolving door of mediocrity.

But the laziness of which I speak is no more evident than in the fact that the team lacks an identity and organizational philosophy. Because creating an identity and team philosophy takes time and hard work. Thatís why it seems the GM, and the AGM are basically throwing darts while blindfolded when it comes to signing players or making trades. And that results in making moves in a vacuum with no forethought whatsoever (see the madness of the Nash trade, Gaborik trade, Torts firing timeline as a good example of that short-sightedness).

So what is this team? Or what do the powers that be want it to be?

If they are a gritty in your face team, then thereís no place for Taylor Pyatt, Mats Zuccarello, Derick Brassard or Benoit Pouliot on this roster.

If they are a puck control, up-tempo, push the pace team, they simply lack the personnel and talent to play that way ó and a coach (or coaching change) canít change that

The lack of an organizational philosophy is also the reason for the stunning failure in free agency. Sure, the high profile signing bustsóDrury, Gomez, Redden, Kasparaitis, Holik and possibly Richardsóare well documented (and donít tell me the Gomez contract was OK because they got McDonagh, that was never the intent when Gomez was signe). But consider this: since the first lockout, this GM has spent $32.275M on bottom six, place-holder, gap-fillers in Arron Asham, Mike Rupp, Donald Brashear, Derek Boogaard, Benoit Pouliot, Taylor Pyatt, Dominic Moore, Ruslan Fedotenko, Jason Ward, Ville Nieminen, Aaron Voros and Patrick Rissmiller. How is it that in 13 years, the team has not been able to develop players who are better than the names listed above?

Maybe it will be that history will show that the greatest achievement of the John Tortorella years was the ability of the coach to serve as a buffer between the sloppy, lazy mentality of the front office and his players. He was able to defuse Glen Sather's blustering gobbledegook of "Our goal is to win the Stanley Cup" with something that the players could control "We're going to outwork you every shift." Now that heís gone, things seem to have reverted back to the way things were ó especially without Ryan Callahan. Maybe the biggest message that firing Torts sent was this: the inmates now run the asylum.

The fact is every part of this team deserves blame. But the true failure is with the directionless decision makers at the top Itís been 13 years and they have failed thoroughly to build an identity, philosophy or even long-term strategy. Just let that sink in for a second, itís taken 13 years to get this team toÖ.here.
Terrific post; very informative. There are no quick fixes and there certainly are no answers as long as the completely out of touch "Teflon GM" remains on the job.
It's nice to see that there are other fans out there who actually get it!

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10-21-2013, 12:36 AM
  #48
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The more thing change the more things stay the same.

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10-21-2013, 12:55 AM
  #49
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History may look back at the firing of Torts as one of the Rangers biggest mistakes since the signing of Keane and Skrudland or the trading of Mattias Norstrom.

The Nash trade in particular hurt as it disrupted chemistry and took away some of the core.
Yup. I posted this on September 29th on another board :

Quote:
vancouver will make a deep run into the playoffs and the rangers will either miss out or get bounced in the first round. people are going to start realizing that tortorella coached the rangers the way he did out of necessity because of the lack of talent on the team, and not because he's a control-freak ********. yeah, torts' offensive creativity is lacking, but maybe it also has to do with the fact that he never had more than one above-average offensive player on his team for a full season.

vigneault's offensive system on the rangers roster will be laughable. it won't catch on at first, and once it does catch on it'll expose the weaknesses in much of the roster that made torts switch from his "safe is death" mentality to "oh **** if we don't block shots and keep this game low scoring we're never winning anything"
This is exactly what we all hated Sather for 5+ years ago. Remember when there were "Fire Sather" rallies? Remember when we all agreed he had no idea what he was doing with this organization? Then in came Tortorella and all of that seemed to change. Sather was all of a sudden ACTUALLY a genius in the minds of so many Rangers fans. Sather never changed...he was still signing free agents that frustrated us (remember Brashear right after his hit on Betts? I bet that ruffled some feathers in the locker room...) He's still completely incapable of bringing in the RIGHT big names to New York. He's still horrendous at drafting.

If the team under Tortorella was a chore to watch, or "masked the deficiencies in the organization", don't blame Tortorella BLAME THE ORGANIZATION. Tortorella took a team with next to nothing and turned them into perennial cup contenders. You want to complain about the team not being exciting enough? Have fun watching the team get blown out 9-2, 6-0, 4-0, etc. etc. etc. I'm sure that'll be much better.

For the "you're overreacting" crowd, I get it. It's early in the season, true, but that's not an excuse for the way this team is playing. A team with as much "talent" as people like to act like it has wouldn't be consistently losing by 3+ goals to ANYONE. Consider the fact that this team was in the Eastern Conference Finals in 2012, and this year only 5 of the forwards from that team who were used in the playoffs have played a game with the Rangers. When you consider that Brian Boyle is one of those guys, it's a little more upsetting. This is not how you win championships in this league. When you're close, you build on that success; you don't blow it up hoping for something BETTER. The Rangers were close. Damn close. And look where they are since? Last year they were lucky to make it past the first round before they were absolutely embarrassed by Boston. This year, rather than let that same roster who had mild success but didn't have a real season to work together again under Tortorella they blew it up hoping for something better.

SBOB is on point. It's a shame we don't have an owner who actually cares about the team. It's a shame we don't have a GM who can admit his faults. It's a shame this team will never have a run of better than mediocre teams under this regime.

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10-21-2013, 07:43 AM
  #50
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The Nash trade was a disruption of the apple cart. It took away some of that "core" that most of us are talking about. And once again, brought in a player who has never played under the pressure of playing in a big city, sports town.
Right but this doesn't answer my question. How did it upset our offensive chemistry when we had very little anyway and how did it cause Richards and Gabs to forget how to play hockey? Did it kill our puck possession last year or something? How many fewer goals did we score last season compared to the average under Torts? Team looked pretty much the same offensively and defensively last year imo. But we had two superstars produce nothing and take up top 6 spots and PP time. What happened to them was independent of the trade and no one seems to have any evidence to the contrary. If they do I'd be happy to listen. Does Nash carry an aura of disruption helmet equipped that makes all superstars forget how to play so he can look good? -5 to team charisma?

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If Torts had focused more on the power play or at least been open to replacing sully as an assitant he may have still been coaching the team.
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Even though our PP looks better with AV, and Vancouver's looks awful under Torts, with elite PP personnel?
I don't disagree. It is what I previously thought though. It's been a small sample size but you are right about this aspect. I do think the all time atrocious PP and his inability to fix it was a great catalyst for his sudden firing. Perhaps the horses in TB carried him PP wise.

We were almost unanimously mistaken to think it was smart to let Prust go for that money. He's the type of guy we begged for and were glad to let him go over what 2 million over 4 years?


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