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Central Hockey League - The Slow Spin Down the Bowl Continues

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Old
10-20-2013, 08:29 PM
  #26
mfrerkes
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Originally Posted by Flukeshot View Post
I'm sure a home debut will be the best turnout ever for the Beast, but it was way higher than the Battalion's avg the past 4 seasons which was around 2000 per game.
Brampton should be averaging about 2000 per game by the early part of next month. For a team with those kind of travel expenses, I can't imagine that will be nearly enough to make the venture feasible very long.

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10-20-2013, 08:38 PM
  #27
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They looked very good on the ice and they'll be competitive, I guess we'll have to see how they do off the ice... Attendance could be abysmal like some people predict or it could be ok.
An opening night crowd of 3331 on a Saturday night portends weak attendance for the rest of the season. The next three home games occur on a Friday, Sunday, and Wednesday. I doubt the Chill will come close to 3k on any of those home dates.

Denver, Brampton, Arizona, and Saint Charles are going to be fighting for the bottom of the CHL attendance race. It's highly unlikely any of those teams will finish the season averaging much more than 2500 per game.

The CHL is guaranteed to be a financial train wreck this season. Suddenly, QC's attendance figures won't seem so bad.

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10-21-2013, 01:06 AM
  #28
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Just a random thought, but assuming the CHL folds after this season and takes the Cutthroats with it, do you think the Avs try to pick up an ECHL affiliation (Colorado Eagles maybe?) or just go the Buffalo route and restock their AHL team after callups/injuries exclusively from PTO agreements?

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10-21-2013, 08:40 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Jackets Woodchuck View Post
Just a random thought, but assuming the CHL folds after this season and takes the Cutthroats with it, do you think the Avs try to pick up an ECHL affiliation (Colorado Eagles maybe?) or just go the Buffalo route and restock their AHL team after callups/injuries exclusively from PTO agreements?
I think your assumption that the CHL will fold after this season might be premature. Don't get me wrong. From a financial standpoint, this league should have called it quits long ago. However, the guy who own(ed) this league has shown a cult-like devotion to keeping it alive regardless how many millions in personal wealth get sucked down the drain.

He has already signed up for another year of losses in Quad City, and I'm sure if any of the other franchises are at risk of tanking, he'll take extraordinary measures to keep those afloat as well. I'm simply not willing to bet that the CHL is in its final season.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the CHL keeps trying this "Weekend At Bernie's" routine for every franchise which requires it.

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10-21-2013, 11:06 AM
  #30
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Let's not forget that the league's been predicted to fold the past several years, but somehow finds a way to keep chugging along.

Honestly think that the CHL will keep running, even if the ECHL raids their top drawing teams, and the quality of play is reduced to single A level.

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10-21-2013, 12:47 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Let's not forget that the league's been predicted to fold the past several years, but somehow finds a way to keep chugging along.

Honestly think that the CHL will keep running, even if the ECHL raids their top drawing teams, and the quality of play is reduced to single A level.
That's why I'm hesitant to say it will fold this summer. I think eventually markets like Allen, Rapid City, and Missouri will say enough. However, the CHL seems to be carving out a niche in keeping "brain dead" markets like QC, Saint Charles, and Brampton from officially dropping out of professional hockey.

It's a horrible business model and will eventually collapse under the weight of its stupidity. That said, I believe it might carry on this way for another few years.

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10-21-2013, 02:17 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Jackets Woodchuck View Post
Just a random thought, but assuming the CHL folds after this season and takes the Cutthroats with it, do you think the Avs try to pick up an ECHL affiliation (Colorado Eagles maybe?) or just go the Buffalo route and restock their AHL team after callups/injuries exclusively from PTO agreements?
For some reason there seems to be some bad blood between the Avs and Eagles going all the way back to 2004-05 when the Eagles were sent a couple of Avs prospects. I have no idea what the problem is, but I don't see the Eagles becoming affilliated with the Avs anytime soon.

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10-26-2013, 10:59 PM
  #33
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Denver Cutthroats had 874 in attendance for their Saturday night game versus Wichita.

Has there ever been a mid-season fold in the CHL? Numbers like that could make Denver a strong candidate.

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10-27-2013, 07:45 PM
  #34
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St. Charles is not that much better. Think they (CHL) wanted to screw over the teams that tried to leave and then threw together what they could to make this look like an actual league.
Denver, St. Charles are already running below 2,000 in attendance and Brampton will probably be there soon enough. Hopefully none of them will fold mid-season, but you never know.
Look for the ECHL and SPHL to pick up a few teams next season.

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10-27-2013, 09:40 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by SenorChifles View Post
St. Charles is not that much better. Think they (CHL) wanted to screw over the teams that tried to leave and then threw together what they could to make this look like an actual league.
Denver, St. Charles are already running below 2,000 in attendance and Brampton will probably be there soon enough. Hopefully none of them will fold mid-season, but you never know.
Look for the ECHL and SPHL to pick up a few teams next season.
I don't know quite what to make of it all right now...aside from the fact these numbers are spectacularly bad. In fact, they're below the awfully low expectations I had going into this season.

Even if a couple teams fold and a couple more successfully jump ship, I can see the CHL trying to plug along as a six-team league. Their hubris is just that great. The IHL (ver 2.0) was able to squeeze three more years out of the core that remained when the UHL disappeared. I can easily see the CHL attempting some UHL/IHL stunt with a paltry number of teams.

Let's not forget that QC still is essentially owned by the league's founder. Missouri and Wichita have doubled-down on their stake in the league by owning multiple teams this season. There's enough of a confederation to keep the CHL going beyond this disastrous season.

Is it smart to do so? No. Does minor league hockey have a history of doing dumb, desperate things? Yes. The CHL could very well be the next exhibit in that case.

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10-27-2013, 10:51 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by mfrerkes View Post
I don't know quite what to make of it all right now...aside from the fact these numbers are spectacularly bad. In fact, they're below the awfully low expectations I had going into this season.

Even if a couple teams fold and a couple more successfully jump ship, I can see the CHL trying to plug along as a six-team league. Their hubris is just that great. The IHL (ver 2.0) was able to squeeze three more years out of the core that remained when the UHL disappeared. I can easily see the CHL attempting some UHL/IHL stunt with a paltry number of teams.

Let's not forget that QC still is essentially owned by the league's founder. Missouri and Wichita have doubled-down on their stake in the league by owning multiple teams this season. There's enough of a confederation to keep the CHL going beyond this disastrous season.

Is it smart to do so? No. Does minor league hockey have a history of doing dumb, desperate things? Yes. The CHL could very well be the next exhibit in that case.
A big difference is the IHL 2.0 was at least concentrated in the Midwest.

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10-28-2013, 09:10 AM
  #37
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A big difference is the IHL 2.0 was at least concentrated in the Midwest.
I know. The IHL also had one franchise (Fort Wayne) that could pull in massive crowds on a regular basis. The CHL has a few teams with decent overall attendance (Allen, RC, Wichita, Missouri) but will never average what the Komets did. In other words, the CHL lacks a marquee franchise. That further cements the CHL as a second-tier AA league. All the "big boys" of AA hockey are playing in the ECHL now.

It's a league with three or four sustainable clubs, and five or six that really don't belong in AA hockey. As you mentioned, the CHL's horrible geography makes a bad situation like that even worse.

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10-28-2013, 10:56 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by mfrerkes View Post
I know. The IHL also had one franchise (Fort Wayne) that could pull in massive crowds on a regular basis. The CHL has a few teams with decent overall attendance (Allen, RC, Wichita, Missouri) but will never average what the Komets did. In other words, the CHL lacks a marquee franchise. That further cements the CHL as a second-tier AA league. All the "big boys" of AA hockey are playing in the ECHL now.

It's a league with three or four sustainable clubs, and five or six that really don't belong in AA hockey. As you mentioned, the CHL's horrible geography makes a bad situation like that even worse.
I just hope none of the stronger franchises suffer any sort of significant long-term damage waiting for the inevitable. Hell, they're probably just hoping for the softest possible crash landing at this point.

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10-29-2013, 10:02 AM
  #39
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I just hope none of the stronger franchises suffer any sort of significant long-term damage waiting for the inevitable. Hell, they're probably just hoping for the softest possible crash landing at this point.
That's why Allen and RC should have been granted their wish to leave the CHL. Those are two hockey markets which have proven potential to flourish in a more stable league. The fact they were forced into another season of this CHL drama tells me the league doesn't care about the long-term future of professional hockey. They just want to keep this rickety ship they own floating down the rapids, and if some good markets get destroyed in the process, so be it.

It's completely selfish and it could turn off quite a few hockey fans who want something sustainable.

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10-29-2013, 01:53 PM
  #40
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That further cements the CHL as a second-tier AA league. All the "big boys" of AA hockey are playing in the ECHL now.
The CHL isn't a Class-AA league. It's Class-A and always has been. The ECHL has been the only legitimate Class-AA league in professional hockey since the real IHL folded.

And for anyone who says the CHL is just a "lower level" of Class-AA, if a carpenter builds two tables of the same wood and the tops are different heights, are the tops the same height? No.

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10-29-2013, 02:48 PM
  #41
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The CHL isn't a Class-AA league. It's Class-A and always has been. The ECHL has been the only legitimate Class-AA league in professional hockey since the real IHL folded.

And for anyone who says the CHL is just a "lower level" of Class-AA, if a carpenter builds two tables of the same wood and the tops are different heights, are the tops the same height? No.
This again?????

Look, if you compare the venues, fan bases, player salaries, front office sizes and player skills of the ECHL and SPHL ..

.. which would you say the CHL is more like?

If you have different comparison criteria you'd like to offer, feel free to share.

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10-29-2013, 03:01 PM
  #42
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I take back my own comment about the comparison including the SPHL venues.

I see now that most of them were built for AA or even AAA tenants in the first place. But I think the CHL's pay levels, skills, etc. still compare more favorably with the ECHL than the SPHL.

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10-29-2013, 05:15 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by CrazyEddie20 View Post
The CHL isn't a Class-AA league. It's Class-A and always has been. The ECHL has been the only legitimate Class-AA league in professional hockey since the real IHL folded.

And for anyone who says the CHL is just a "lower level" of Class-AA, if a carpenter builds two tables of the same wood and the tops are different heights, are the tops the same height? No.
There are players which go directly from the CHL to the AHL. In fact, the team I have the unfortunate displeasure of watching (the Quad City Mallards) are currently using a goalie under AHL contract with Oklahoma City. Kinda throws a kink in that whole single-A argument, doesn't it? If the CHL was solely a "Class A" operation as you claim, an AHL club wouldn't be placing their goalie at this level of hockey.

Anger and rage is not an adequate substitute for reality. Is the ECHL a better overall representation of AA hockey? Yes. Does the CHL also have talent which can play immediately at the AAA level? Yes.


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10-29-2013, 05:21 PM
  #44
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I take back my own comment about the comparison including the SPHL venues.

I see now that most of them were built for AA or even AAA tenants in the first place. But I think the CHL's pay levels, skills, etc. still compare more favorably with the ECHL than the SPHL.
The long-term problem with the CHL (provided the league still has a long-term) is that average player salaries are likely to keep falling behind the ECHL. While I definitely agree that the CHL currently has AA-ish players within its ranks, that could be rapidly changing in the years ahead. At some point, the CHL may draw closer to an SPHL salary model...and that would most definitely impact the talent pool.

Right now, however, I agree that the CHL aligns closer to the ECHL.

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10-29-2013, 10:13 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by mfrerkes View Post
There are players which go directly from the CHL to the AHL. In fact, the team I have the unfortunate displeasure of watching (the Quad City Mallards) are currently using a goalie under AHL contract with Oklahoma City. Kinda throws a kink in that whole single-A argument, doesn't it? If the CHL was solely a "Class A" operation as you claim, an AHL club wouldn't be placing their goalie at this level of hockey.

Anger and rage is not an adequate substitute for reality. Is the ECHL a better overall representation of AA hockey? Yes. Does the CHL also have talent which can play immediately at the AAA level? Yes.
Players go from Class-A to Class-AAA in baseball, too. Don't let reality get in the way of your opinion.

The ECHL is a Class-AA league - attendance, venues, affiliation, and the quality of play is far and away above that of the CHL, and always has been. Players that lead the CHL in scoring disappear in the ECHL. Players that get waived through the ECHL do very well in the CHL. In reality, though, being Class-AA has nothing to do with venues and attendance - just ask the Huntsville Stars of baseball's Southern League. They play in a dump and draw sub-1,000 crowds on a nightly basis, but they're Class-AA because they play in a league where the level of play is Class-AA. The CHL's level of play is not Class-AA, thus the CHL is not Class-AA. End of story.


Last edited by Kane One: 10-30-2013 at 08:43 AM.
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10-30-2013, 08:57 AM
  #46
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In reality, though, being Class-AA has nothing to do with venues and attendance - just ask the Huntsville Stars of baseball's Southern League. They play in a dump and draw sub-1,000 crowds on a nightly basis, but they're Class-AA because they play in a league where the level of play is Class-AA. The CHL's level of play is not Class-AA, thus the CHL is not Class-AA. End of story.
In reality, I never said Class-AA has anything to do with venues or attendance. Re-read my post. There's nothing about attendance or venues in it. So, you just created a straw man argument based out of thin air, knocked it down, and proceeded to declare yourself victorious. That's not how reality works.

Ty Rimmer was just signed to an AHL contract last month by Oklahoma City, and had played well in the Oilers' NHL camp:

http://tphockey.com/2013/09/ty-rimme...nhl-main-camp/

http://www.okcbarons.com/index.cfm?f...8-7601196EE82C

On October 1st, Oklahoma City assigned Rimmer to the Quad City Mallards, a CHL team:

http://myqcmallards.com/newsandinfo/...rticle_id=1083


An AHL team like Oklahoma City isn't even going to bother signing some player to a contract if he was A-level. An NHL team wouldn't invite Rimmer to their training camp if he was only A-level. He wouldn't fare well at all in an NHL camp if he was only A-level.

But, the funniest part of Ty Rimmer's journey from an NHL camp to an AHL contract in Oklahoma City to a stint in the CHL is how he stacks up against other CHL goalies currently playing:

14th in GAA, and 15th in SV% (Out of a 10-team league)

http://chl.stats.pointstreak.com/goa...5&sortby=svpct

You'd think a goalie who just signed an AHL contract and was among the final cuts in an NHL camp would absolutely dominate the scene in a supposed A-level league, where the talent he faces is not very good.

But, he isn't. That's because the CHL is not an A-level league.

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10-30-2013, 02:48 PM
  #47
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Players go from Class-A to Class-AAA in baseball, too. Don't let reality get in the way of your opinion.
This is an honest question.

Can you please share an example where (in the past few years) an SPHL player went directly from the SPHL to the AHL??

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10-30-2013, 03:47 PM
  #48
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This is an honest question.

Can you please share an example where (in the past few years) an SPHL player went directly from the SPHL to the AHL??
Scott Darling of the RiverKings was called up to Charlotte of the AHL during the 2010-11 season.

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10-30-2013, 03:50 PM
  #49
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This is an honest question.

Can you please share an example where (in the past few years) an SPHL player went directly from the SPHL to the AHL??
My point, also, is that the SPHL isn't really Class-A. It's the equivalent of baseball's Class-R leagues, to draw the closest analogy.

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10-30-2013, 04:02 PM
  #50
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This is an honest question.

Can you please share an example where (in the past few years) an SPHL player went directly from the SPHL to the AHL??
Perhaps Crazy Eddie could also provide an example where a player under AHL contract (who participated in an NHL training camp) was assigned to a SPHL team during the regular season.

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