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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 7) Can't Win Olympic Games Edition

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Old
10-21-2013, 10:27 AM
  #76
Andy
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Yes he's part of the PK, but it's up to the other 4 guys out there to limit the amount of chances the other team gets.

It's not Price's fault if our team constantly gives up golden chances on the PK.
Anyone have Price's PK SV% from before Therrien when the team had some of the best PK% in the league under Martin and Cunneyworth?

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Old
10-21-2013, 10:34 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
You know there are games where shots are 30-30 and one team still looks awful defensively. Then there are games like the Jets, who outshoot the Canadiens, but the Jets D was not great all game (neither was the Canadiens). I don't the necessary causal link between shots against and defensive play. There are games where the habs outshoot their opponent, concede 22 shots and still look terrible defensively. Case in point, Habs-Calagry, they outshot Calgary 35-25, yet had a terrible defensive effort.
Well, "not great" isn't an option in the 3 grade system, is it. And we're talking about a 4 shot difference over 40 minutes of play, which is about the equivalent of how much game time the teams were tied 1-1. You're right in general, but in this case, how much of a big deal do you have to make of the breakdowns that you remember to reduce the overall effort to "bad"? 0 breakdowns is an unrealistic standard for "good", btw.

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10-21-2013, 10:41 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, "not great" isn't an option in the 3 grade system, is it. And we're talking about a 4 shot difference over 40 minutes of play, which is about the equivalent of how much game time the teams were tied 1-1. You're right in general, but in this case, how much of a big deal do you have to make of the breakdowns that you remember to reduce the overall effort to "bad"? 0 breakdowns is an unrealistic standard for "good", btw.
That or maybe this is just a classic example of how stats don't tell the whole story. Despite the score, the habs had one of their worst efforts against the Preds, which is why the team outside of Price, Eller, Gallagher and Galchenyuk, got panned all game in the GDT, even though the score was tied.

As for the "they spend a good part of the game on PK," teams getting outplayed tend to take more penalties, which was the case Saturday night. If that was an example of the Habs d being "good", then I'm scared for the rest of the season when they actually start playing quality teams.

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Old
10-21-2013, 10:46 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Anyone have Price's PK SV% from before Therrien when the team had some of the best PK% in the league under Martin and Cunneyworth?
NHL.com does.

2010/11 (Montreal PK=7th): 0.886
2011/12 (Montreal PK=2nd): 0.907
----------------------------------------
2012/13 (Montreal PK=22nd): 0.804 (Budaj: 0.898)
2013/14 (Currently 18th): 0.893

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Old
10-21-2013, 11:08 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
Yes he's part of the PK, but it's up to the other 4 guys out there to limit the amount of chances the other team gets.

It's not Price's fault if our team constantly gives up golden chances on the PK.
Certainly but like I said, he is part of the PK with those other guys. I don't think it's fair to imply that Price's SV% on the PK is lower just because of the 4 guys in front of him.

I think Price struggles when the play moves side to side or he has to battle through traffic in front. This isn't exclusive to Price either, as I'm sure a lot of goalies have a lower SV% on PK as opposed to ES.

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Old
10-21-2013, 11:09 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
That or maybe this is just a classic example of how stats don't tell the whole story. Despite the score, the habs had one of their worst efforts against the Preds, which is why the team outside of Price, Eller, Gallagher and Galchenyuk, got panned all game in the GDT, even though the score was tied.

As for the "they spend a good part of the game on PK," teams getting outplayed tend to take more penalties, which was the case Saturday night. If that was an example of the Habs d being "good", then I'm scared for the rest of the season when they actually start playing quality teams.
Sort of true, but the one penalty they cashed in on in the 1st period was due to a forward dumping the puck over the glass (could say he was forced, could call it bad luck), and I'd submit that both of PK's penalties were cases of lack of discipline more than desperation. Could have ended the 1st period on a 2 man advantage if he isn't called for unsportsmanlike from tangling with Nystrom. The holding/interference/tripping penalties are a different story, though, and that's where we start to agree, but how do you categorize Bourque's holding penalty against Jones while we were on the powerplay? That's also discipline, not being "out-worked" while enjoying a 5-on-4 advantage.

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Old
10-21-2013, 11:19 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
If you did your homework, though, you'd know that you're passing off 26 to 23 as "grossly outshot". Those were the even strength shot totals, btw.
The shots were 37-29 for Nashville... I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but 37 shots in one game is pretty bad, whether or not you take into account penalties. And even if you did, we only had one more penalty than Nashville, so why does ES shots on goal even matter? dmanfish90 never said anything about ES shots on goal.

But either way, you're concentrating on one thing that was said when the main problem was that our team's play in our own zone was very mediocre last game, and that's a main issue.

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Old
10-21-2013, 11:41 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
The shots were 37-29 for Nashville... I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but 37 shots in one game is pretty bad, whether or not you take into account penalties. And even if you did, we only had one more penalty than Nashville, so why does ES shots on goal even matter? dmanfish90 never said anything about ES shots on goal.

But either way, you're concentrating on one thing that was said when the main problem was that our team's play in our own zone was very mediocre last game, and that's a main issue.
You don't know where I'm getting the numbers? Really? But that's not the point. The point is that, regardless of how bad our PP was by comparison, Nashville got 9 of those 37 shots on the powerplay (compared to our 4 on the PP), and started off the game with 3 shots on that first PP, which fueled some early momentum for a couple of shifts that followed. Last half of the 1st was nothing like the first. But really, the worst of everything had to be the first 5 minutes of the 2nd period, in terms of defensive zone play, and play was more or less split for the last half of the game. I think that 5 minutes at the beginning of the 2nd is perhaps getting too much weight in a 60 minute game from anyone adamant about a "bad" rating defensively.

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Old
10-21-2013, 11:47 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You don't know where I'm getting the numbers? Really? But that's not the point. The point is that, regardless of how bad our PP was by comparison, Nashville got 9 of those 37 shots on the powerplay (compared to our 4 on the PP), and started off the game with 3 shots on that first PP, which fueled some early momentum for a couple of shifts that followed. Last half of the 1st was nothing like the first. But really, the worst of everything had to be the first 5 minutes of the 2nd period, in terms of defensive zone play, and play was more or less split for the last half of the game. I think that 5 minutes at the beginning of the 2nd is perhaps getting too much weight in a 60 minute game from anyone adamant about a "bad" rating defensively.
I mean, if anything you are making a case of why we shouldn't look at only shots against to determine how well the team performed. Breaking down the shots to ES, PK and PP scenarios changes the look stats wise, but watching the game, the team didn't play well at all deservedly lost.

With that logic, the habs defense played "good" against Calgary considering they only conceded 25 shots while taking 35. They defense must have also been good against Toronto considering that Toronto only outshot the team by 1. But they didn't the defense was borderline atrocious in both games.

Like I said, if the Nashville game is an example of "good" defense, I'm not looking forward to the rest of the season.

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Old
10-21-2013, 11:48 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You don't know where I'm getting the numbers? Really? But that's not the point. The point is that, regardless of how bad our PP was by comparison, Nashville got 9 of those 37 shots on the powerplay (compared to our 4 on the PP), and started off the game with 3 shots on that first PP, which fueled some early momentum for a couple of shifts that followed. Last half of the 1st was nothing like the first. But really, the worst of everything had to be the first 5 minutes of the 2nd period, in terms of defensive zone play, and play was more or less split for the last half of the game. I think that 5 minutes at the beginning of the 2nd is perhaps getting too much weight in a 60 minute game from anyone adamant about a "bad" rating defensively.
I still don't understand why you used ES shot totals when we only had one more penalty than Nashville, but whatever. Shots were 37-29 for Nashville, and that shot total is NOT good. Especially coming from a defense-oriented team like Nashville.

If your point is that they played much better than us on the PP (or we played much worse on the PK), then I'd agree. But the majority of the game was filled with terrible team play in our own zone, from losing puck battles to bad positioning.

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Old
10-22-2013, 10:43 PM
  #86
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Game 9: Price bad or mediocre/Defense bad or mediocre???

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10-22-2013, 10:46 PM
  #87
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Game 9: Price bad or mediocre/Defense bad or mediocre???
Price mediocre/Defense mediocre. Neither helped each other much.

Side note, team defense BAD

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10-22-2013, 10:55 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Price mediocre/Defense mediocre. Neither helped each other much.

Side note, team defense BAD
Pretty much. I've always said the same thing: our team defense is awful. The swarm sucks, and our coverage sucks.

Price was mediocre tonight, and so was the defense. Overall, a bad game.

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10-23-2013, 12:10 AM
  #89
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Sadly, did not get to see the game tonight. Just came back from a conference and I'm slightly intoxicated. Let me know the thoughts on how we looked. The score doesn't look great and we lost to the Oilers.... so was it the D? Price? A combination of both? All y'all decide and let me know 'cause I didn't see it.

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10-23-2013, 12:18 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Sadly, did not get to see the game tonight. Just came back from a conference and I'm slightly intoxicated. Let me know the thoughts on how we looked. The score doesn't look great and we lost to the Oilers.... so was it the D? Price? A combination of both? All y'all decide and let me know 'cause I didn't see it.
The Habs and Price were great in the first period, and we were up 2-0. Then we decided not to show up in the second and third. Our team defense was awful: forwards weren't covering properly in our end, defense were making bad pinches and not positioning themselves well. The team didn't play well together at all, especially in our own end. No chemistry or effort level they displayed in the first. It just seemed like all the teamwork evaporated from the first, for no real reason.

Price probably had his worst game of the season. He was not bad, but I would say he was mediocre. The defense was just as bad as Price, so they were mediocre as well. I think most people would agree with that assessment.

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10-23-2013, 12:19 AM
  #91
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Vote Price mediocre, defense bad. Worst game I've seen collectively from the defense in terms of execution and results.

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10-23-2013, 12:31 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
Pretty much. I've always said the same thing: our team defense is awful. The swarm sucks, and our coverage sucks.

Price was mediocre tonight, and so was the defense. Overall, a bad game.
mediocre + mediocre = bad ?

synonyms of mediocre: ordinary, common, commonplace, indifferent, average, middle-of-the-road, middling, medium, moderate, everyday, workaday, tolerable, passable, adequate, fair...

I really wanna know how you came up with "Overall,a bad game" when your assessment was that both Price and the defense were average.

If Overall the game was a bad one then overall both of them or either one them (Price and the defense) played a bad game.

Say things as they are dude, stop trying to soften it up for Carey.

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10-23-2013, 12:37 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Vote Price mediocre, defense bad. Worst game I've seen collectively from the defense in terms of execution and results.
that would be the most accurate assessment imo.

Even though 4 goals (2 soft ones) is pretty bad i'm personally not rdy to bash a goalie that helped us win 4 games in a row.

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10-23-2013, 12:40 AM
  #94
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That was Price's worst game this year, yet it wasnt that bad, he was ok tonight..

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10-23-2013, 01:32 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Genesis76 View Post
mediocre + mediocre = bad ?

synonyms of mediocre: ordinary, common, commonplace, indifferent, average, middle-of-the-road, middling, medium, moderate, everyday, workaday, tolerable, passable, adequate, fair...

I really wanna know how you came up with "Overall,a bad game" when your assessment was that both Price and the defense were average.

If Overall the game was a bad one then overall both of them or either one them (Price and the defense) played a bad game.

Say things as they are dude, stop trying to soften it up for Carey.
"Stop trying to soften it up for Carey"? Really?

Quit being so immature. Seriously, your entire post was just whining about semantics? Come on. For your information, the word mediocre does not JUST mean moderate as you're trying to claim; it can also mean "low-quality" or "low performance", which is exactly what I was referring to. When you're looking for the description of a word, please do not use synonyms to back up your point.

Not every post in this thread is people lining up to praise Carey Price. It was an overall bad game for the Habs because our team as a whole played poorly at every end of the rink. Certain positions playing poorly is not the same thing as an entire team not working together well.

Price was mediocre (low-quality performance), and the defense was too (low-quality performance, just as a reminder). They weren't particularly bad, but the team as a whole just lost all their chemistry and effort-level, and that is why I think it was an overall bad game. Now quit with the nit-picking.

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10-23-2013, 06:06 AM
  #96
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He was due for an average game.

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Old
10-23-2013, 08:57 AM
  #97
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Price was not mediocre. He was average. If he is average the team looks mediocre. He gets ran over last night and no one was there to stop it. Disgusting.

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Old
10-23-2013, 09:46 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
"Stop trying to soften it up for Carey"? Really?

Quit being so immature. Seriously, your entire post was just whining about semantics? Come on. For your information, the word mediocre does not JUST mean moderate as you're trying to claim; it can also mean "low-quality" or "low performance", which is exactly what I was referring to. When you're looking for the description of a word, please do not use synonyms to back up your point.

Not every post in this thread is people lining up to praise Carey Price. It was an overall bad game for the Habs because our team as a whole played poorly at every end of the rink. Certain positions playing poorly is not the same thing as an entire team not working together well.

Price was mediocre (low-quality performance), and the defense was too (low-quality performance, just as a reminder). They weren't particularly bad, but the team as a whole just lost all their chemistry and effort-level, and that is why I think it was an overall bad game. Now quit with the nit-picking.
Mediocre might be less desired but it means average.
Mediocre would equal to an average-quality performance not a low one.

I'm personally not blaming Price but if you think he had a poor game (low quality performance) call it as it is...mediocre is not the word.

like AMAZING (game 1)

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10-23-2013, 10:29 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Genesis76 View Post
Mediocre might be less desired but it means average.
Mediocre would equal to an average-quality performance not a low one.

I'm personally not blaming Price but if you think he had a poor game (low quality performance) call it as it is...mediocre is not the word.

like AMAZING (game 1)
In french, (and maybe even in english in some definitions) mediocre means less than average.

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Old
10-23-2013, 10:46 AM
  #100
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In french, (and maybe even in english in some definitions) mediocre means less than average.
Your right for french, Larousse says its just below average.

But: https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/mediocre

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