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Old
10-20-2013, 03:18 PM
  #1
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Staal and Girardi

am i the only one who finds this pairing absolutely foolish... 2 slow to react dman who constantly get caught pinching in , how do you pair to slouth type dman together? don't you need one with speed to help out when one gets caught?

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10-20-2013, 03:38 PM
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Whatever the system that AV is trying to incorporate into this team is not working for them or even McDonagh. I even think Stralman, Del Zotto and Moore are struggling with it. Too many odd man rushes--too much miscommunication between the defense pairs, the backchecking forwards and even the goalie--too many bad defensive reads--not enough support from the forwards coming back. Henrik has looked like **** most of the year as well. Don't think this is all just about Girardi and Staal. The Rangers have been a tight defensive team the past several years--now they're the keystone cops.

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10-20-2013, 03:44 PM
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OverTheCap
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Miscommunication has been a major problem on defense. Whether it be between the defensemen, Lundqvist, or the forwards, at least once a game there is blown coverage because the players are not on the same page and are not alerting each other to where they are on the ice.

If they aren't going to communicate with each other, then this system, which relies heavily on quick decision-making in our own zone, will not work at all. It's unbelievable how dumb these players are sometimes and how slow they are to adjust.

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Old
10-20-2013, 04:15 PM
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mrhockey193195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
Miscommunication has been a major problem on defense. Whether it be between the defensemen, Lundqvist, or the forwards, at least once a game there is blown coverage because the players are not on the same page and are not alerting each other to where they are on the ice.

If they aren't going to communicate with each other, then this system, which relies heavily on quick decision-making in our own zone, will not work at all. It's unbelievable how dumb these players are sometimes and how slow they are to adjust.
I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that these defensemen who, for the most part have been sensational for years under Torts, aren't actually dumb. And that adjusting to a very different defensive system is extremely difficult, even for star NHL players.

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10-20-2013, 04:55 PM
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Defense is the hardest position to learn. The development curve for defensemen tends to be a bit longer than it is for forwards. It's like these guys are learning from scratch again or like having an entire defense corps of rookies out there sometimes.

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10-20-2013, 05:02 PM
  #6
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There was a Canucks fan who posted on the NYR boards a few weeks ago. I couldn't find the post but I'll do my best to recap.

Paraphrased, he said:

Av's system is very hard to learn, Vancouver fans would give new players 2-3 months to adjust to his system.

It relies on many quick decisions. In the defensive zone, your decision relies on many observations such as whether the shooter is a righty or a lefty, etc.

It is apparently much more confusing than other NHL systems.

I'll give the players a few more weeks before I start calling them "dumb".

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10-20-2013, 05:23 PM
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OverTheCap
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Well, I said these players are dumb sometimes (all players have their moments), but as usual on HF, a small part of my post gets nitpicked while the overall crux of the argument goes unaddressed.

AV's system is especially hard for defensemen on our team who aren't exactly natural puckmovers - which is exactly why they should be more vocal and communicating with each other on the ice, and for whatever reason, they haven't been.

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Old
10-20-2013, 05:23 PM
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azaloum90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KreidertheGlider View Post
There was a Canucks fan who posted on the NYR boards a few weeks ago. I couldn't find the post but I'll do my best to recap.

Paraphrased, he said:

Av's system is very hard to learn, Vancouver fans would give new players 2-3 months to adjust to his system.

It relies on many quick decisions. In the defensive zone, your decision relies on many observations such as whether the shooter is a righty or a lefty, etc.

It is apparently much more confusing than other NHL systems.

I'll give the players a few more weeks before I start calling them "dumb".
This has been stated by many of posters. I'll vouch for it until December/January (if we still look like crap at that time)

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Old
10-20-2013, 06:25 PM
  #9
SERE 24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KreidertheGlider View Post
There was a Canucks fan who posted on the NYR boards a few weeks ago. I couldn't find the post but I'll do my best to recap.

Paraphrased, he said:

Av's system is very hard to learn, Vancouver fans would give new players 2-3 months to adjust to his system.

It relies on many quick decisions. In the defensive zone, your decision relies on many observations such as whether the shooter is a righty or a lefty, etc.

It is apparently much more confusing than other NHL systems.

I'll give the players a few more weeks before I start calling them "dumb".
I don't buy this AT ALL. This is like one of those popular conspiracy theories out there that gets repeated all the time simply because it can't be disproved. What do you guys think a coaches "system" is? I played competitive hockey my entire life, including in college, and "the system" a team plays has much more to do with how you set up to break out of the zone once you've gained control of the puck, or whose responsibility the dump in is and who covers the slot. It's not a computer program. It's not an incredible, complex alien language that alters everything about how you play the game. You still do all of the fundamental things exactly the same way as you always have. Systems don't change how you defend a two on one or whether you pay attention to back door plays. They don't require to learn a new way of defending when the attackers comes at you one on one. Systems just have to do with HOW a team sets up. Think of it as a compilation of set plays that you try to continuously incorporate throughout the game, but you adapt just like your normal, fundamental hockey skills and instincts would dictate you should when the plays don't work the way they're practiced. You don't change the way you defend as an individual, you're just looking to get into the proper breakout for your "system" once you regain the puck. You don't neglect to pick up the back door play, you just have to know whose responsibility it is. Sure... I'm positive it gets a lot more in depth and complicated in the pro game, but these guys have all played NUMEROUS other systems throughout their life; learning a new system simply is NOT rocket science and it doesn't take MONTHS to learn. That is an absolute fairy tale in my opinion. We'll see in December, if the team magically "gets it" and becomes masters of Vigneault's algorithms and formulas, but I honestly can't believe how much is being made of "the system" in the search for an excuse for this team's play so far this year. It's like "system" is a new buzz word for NHL fans. A few years back you never would have even heard people talking about this kind of junk.


Last edited by SERE 24: 10-20-2013 at 06:31 PM.
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Old
10-21-2013, 08:25 AM
  #10
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It's hard to find fault because guys like MDZ and Stralman will have lapses even playing for Claude Julien. But when I see McDonagh and Staal constantly caught halfway between two different plays, I think there's something not quite right with what their asked to do. It's like their on ice-instincts don't work because no-one is where they should be.

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Old
10-21-2013, 08:59 AM
  #11
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I don't think a new system should affect a player's passing ability and render all of their passes as terrible.

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10-21-2013, 09:12 PM
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The Rangers' paper tiger defense has been exposed for what it is without an ultra-conservative system to hide behind. What fans thought of as a royal flush defense corps is more like a pair of jacks.

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10-21-2013, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmoak View Post
The Rangers' paper tiger defense has been exposed for what it is. What fans thought of as a royal flush defense corps is more like a pair of jacks.
What? Who are you
?

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Old
10-21-2013, 11:01 PM
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Garfinkel1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastafazul View Post
am i the only one who finds this pairing absolutely foolish... 2 slow to react dman who constantly get caught pinching in , how do you pair to slouth type dman together? don't you need one with speed to help out when one gets caught?

.... They've played together in the past and looked great. That's not the issue.

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Old
10-21-2013, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SERE 24 View Post
I don't buy this AT ALL. This is like one of those popular conspiracy theories out there that gets repeated all the time simply because it can't be disproved. What do you guys think a coaches "system" is? I played competitive hockey my entire life, including in college, and "the system" a team plays has much more to do with how you set up to break out of the zone once you've gained control of the puck, or whose responsibility the dump in is and who covers the slot. It's not a computer program. It's not an incredible, complex alien language that alters everything about how you play the game. You still do all of the fundamental things exactly the same way as you always have. Systems don't change how you defend a two on one or whether you pay attention to back door plays. They don't require to learn a new way of defending when the attackers comes at you one on one. Systems just have to do with HOW a team sets up. Think of it as a compilation of set plays that you try to continuously incorporate throughout the game, but you adapt just like your normal, fundamental hockey skills and instincts would dictate you should when the plays don't work the way they're practiced. You don't change the way you defend as an individual, you're just looking to get into the proper breakout for your "system" once you regain the puck. You don't neglect to pick up the back door play, you just have to know whose responsibility it is. Sure... I'm positive it gets a lot more in depth and complicated in the pro game, but these guys have all played NUMEROUS other systems throughout their life; learning a new system simply is NOT rocket science and it doesn't take MONTHS to learn. That is an absolute fairy tale in my opinion. We'll see in December, if the team magically "gets it" and becomes masters of Vigneault's algorithms and formulas, but I honestly can't believe how much is being made of "the system" in the search for an excuse for this team's play so far this year. It's like "system" is a new buzz word for NHL fans. A few years back you never would have even heard people talking about this kind of junk.
I guess you wwere a forward, 'cause there ARE different defensive strategies...

But I agree with you 80%. Guys, they're not learning anything. This is by-design--like him or not, Sather knows better than to start a season relying on guys like Pouliot and Zuccarello. Most of the roster is in a contract year. It's looking more and more like we're gonna blow it up at the deadline, get a top 5-10 pick and start a re-build. Hopefully a REAL one. I'm hoping Sather just woke up and decided that, 'cause it'll benefit is eventually.

I could be wrong, we'll wait till we're healthy, but not even Sather would think we could compete with the amount of question-marks we had coming into the season. Is Stepan legit? Is Brassard? Is Zuccarello? Can Pouliot be like Brassard? Can Del Zotto be better? Can Kreider be anything? Is Staal's eye really ok? Can Richards bounce back? How long will it take Cally and Hags to come back? A lot of the answers are still uncertain and looking to be negative ones. We knew this.

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Old
10-22-2013, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmoak View Post
The Rangers' paper tiger defense has been exposed for what it is without an ultra-conservative system to hide behind. What fans thought of as a royal flush defense corps is more like a pair of jacks.
Exactly. Our defensemen are clones of each other and they are all softer to play against than a warehouse of waterbeds!

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10-22-2013, 03:07 PM
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Exactly. Our defensemen are clones of each other and they are all softer to play against than a warehouse of waterbeds!
Duh! Even Ovechkin said it in the playoffs

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10-22-2013, 05:21 PM
  #18
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Exactly. Our defensemen are clones of each other and they are all softer to play against than a warehouse of waterbeds!
I imagine skating a puck through a concrete floored warehouse full of waterbeds would actually be rather difficult.

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Old
10-22-2013, 07:18 PM
  #19
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.... They've played together in the past and looked great. That's not the issue.
yes, they have played together in the past and i didn't like the pairing then either, together they are an accident waitin to happen, it was just sheer luck that nothin bad happen at those times, both are 2 slow to react when they get caught, and they will get caught! its that simple!

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