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The Montreal Canadiens indirectly stood in the way of the 67 expansion.

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Old
10-21-2013, 08:42 PM
  #1
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The Montreal Canadiens indirectly stood in the way of the 67 expansion.

Not many know that in order for the NHL to expand in 67 the NHL had to end the monopoly on the pipeline to top French jr talent the Habs had.
The prospective and established owners of the incoming teams saw how unfair the access was to top French jr age talent and demanded change.

If it was up to the Habs the NHL would still be 6 teams so they didn't have to give up owning most of the top end French jr talent pipeline teams and league(s).

source below.
Cruise, David and Griffiths, Alison (1991). Net Worth: Exploding The Myths of Pro Hockey. Stoddart Publishing

A large group of the Cups that the Habs won were due to them owning jr teams/leagues in the prime hockey enrollment areas. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE TERRITORIAL RULE. It would be like the Leafs owning the OMHA and the GTHL and being able to snag any player they wanted prior to the draft.

I wish people would stop saying that the territorial rule is the reason the Habs had such an advantage, it wasn't and it only applied to any player who didn't all ready have a c-form. Back then most top players had a c-form by the age of 14-16 some as young as 12. It was 1st and foremost that most of the top talent back then was French and most French players wanted to play for the Habs. The 2nd reason was that the Habs were 1st to set up jr teams and leagues in areas that had high rates of hockey enrollment. Back then if a player played on/in a team/league that was owned by the Habs then the Habs owned the player as well. By the time the other teams got wind of what the Habs were doing it was too late to be competitive as far as jr development because the Habs had allready laid claim to the best areas. What really blows me away is that the NHL actually allowed that to happen.

most info from http://www.amazon.com/Behind-Cheerin.../dp/B0006CV4IY <<great read a lot of info about how he implemented his jr talent monopoly. only up to 62 tho

Look at total # of C-forms each NHL team signed and the Habs had more than any other NHL team had combined, not just the other 5 but any other NHL team that existed prior to the 67 expansion. Ya see other teams would scout individuals but the Habs would basically sign everything they could and keep the best. By doing that they made thousands of NHL caliber players unavailable to the other teams. Its sad really.

source http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=1476

As an additional point go look at the NHL draft page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_Entry_Draft and look at the drafts up till 69. You will notice that pretty much all the top guys are from Ontario teams/leagues then look in 69 once the Habs stranglehold is broken at how many Que players are now in the top part of the draft.

Also the political climate in Que was such that the Habs were a beacon to the French and it was of upmost importance to the province that the Habs remained dominant. Believe it or not the province of Que actually helped the Montreal Canadians pay to implement their jr farm teams.
source
http://proicehockey.about.com/od/hoc.../canadiens.htm

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10-21-2013, 08:48 PM
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Take their cups away!

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10-21-2013, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
Not many know that in order for the NHL to expand in 67 the NHL had to end the monopoly on the pipeline to top French jr talent the Habs had.
The prospective and established owners of the incoming teams saw how unfair the access was to top French jr age talent and demanded change.

If it was up to the Habs the NHL would still be 6 teams so they didn't have to give up owning most of the top end French jr talent pipeline teams and league(s).

source below.
Cruise, David and Griffiths, Alison (1991). Net Worth: Exploding The Myths of Pro Hockey. Stoddart Publishing

A large group of the Cups that the Habs won were due to them owning jr teams/leagues in the prime hockey enrollment areas. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE TERRITORIAL RULE. It would be like the Leafs owning the OMHA and the GTHL and being able to snag any player they wanted prior to the draft.

I wish people would stop saying that the territorial rule is the reason the Habs had such an advantage, it wasn't and it only applied to any player who didn't all ready have a c-form. Back then most top players had a c-form by the age of 14-16 some as young as 12. It was 1st and foremost that most of the top talent back then was French and most French players wanted to play for the Habs. The 2nd reason was that the Habs were 1st to set up jr teams and leagues in areas that had high rates of hockey enrollment. Back then if a player played on/in a team/league that was owned by the Habs then the Habs owned the player as well. By the time the other teams got wind of what the Habs were doing it was too late to be competitive as far as jr development because the Habs had allready laid claim to the best areas. What really blows me away is that the NHL actually allowed that to happen.

most info from http://www.amazon.com/Behind-Cheerin.../dp/B0006CV4IY <<great read a lot of info about how he implemented his jr talent monopoly. only up to 62 tho

Look at total # of C-forms each NHL team signed and the Habs had more than any other NHL team had combined, not just the other 5 but any other NHL team that existed prior to the 67 expansion. Ya see other teams would scout individuals but the Habs would basically sign everything they could and keep the best. By doing that they made thousands of NHL caliber players unavailable to the other teams. Its sad really.

source http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=1476

As an additional point go look at the NHL draft page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_Entry_Draft and look at the drafts up till 69. You will notice that pretty much all the top guys are from Ontario teams/leagues then look in 69 once the Habs stranglehold is broken at how many Que players are now in the top part of the draft.

Also the political climate in Que was such that the Habs were a beacon to the French and it was of upmost importance to the province that the Habs remained dominant. Believe it or not the province of Que actually helped the Montreal Canadians pay to implement their jr farm teams.
source
http://proicehockey.about.com/od/hoc.../canadiens.htm
I'm pretty confident when I say that I don't think France has ever been a hockey power. Who are all these French players you keep referring to?

I did a google search and I found this :

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv...ovince=&state=

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ers_by_country

Not really a lot of French players in the history of the league.

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10-21-2013, 08:57 PM
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Take their cups away!
nono I just got hit with the 24 cups thing and it makes my blood boil, look at the spread of cup wins prior to Selkie setting up his farm team monopoly 53 and its more fair then look at the # of wins the Habs have from 55-79(15 cups) all because of an unfair advantage in being able to obtain top french talent 1st. IMO the Leafs have the most fair cup wins with 11

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10-21-2013, 08:59 PM
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I'm pretty confident when I say that I don't think France has ever been a hockey power. Who are all these French players you keep referring to?

I did a google search and I found this :

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv...ovince=&state=

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ers_by_country

Not really a lot of French players in the history of the league.
ummm your joking right?? if not Quebec is primarily French and the political climate after the 2nd World War really started a divide for the French in Que.

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10-21-2013, 09:05 PM
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The rule netted them Rejean Houle, a third liner and Marc Tardif.

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10-21-2013, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
ummm your joking right?? if not Quebec is primarily French and the political climate after the 2nd World War really started a divide for the French in Que.
Ummm, no I'm not.

I'm suspecting you are talking about Canadians from Quebec who happen to speak one of our two official languages, that language being French. It does not however make them French. They are Canadians.

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10-21-2013, 09:08 PM
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Typical... Montreal typical.

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10-21-2013, 09:09 PM
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There's a movie based on the Ted Lindsay section of Net Worth, was made in '95, pretty good.

Anyways, I was fortunate to find the book at a Goodwill, I'd recommend people try to pick it up for cheap online used if possible because it's one of the best hockey books written, gives good insight to the scenes behind the game.

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10-21-2013, 09:12 PM
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So they laid the foundation to their grass roots development program in their back yard, yet monopolized all the best areas? Did they set up farm teams in other provinces?

Honestly, this sounds like some historical whining. Loved the bit about leafs having the most fair cups!

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10-21-2013, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FranksterQc View Post
The rule netted them Rejean Houle, a third liner and Marc Tardif.
I am not talking about the territorial rule read the op

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preisst View Post
Ummm, no I'm not.

I'm suspecting you are talking about Canadians from Quebec who happen to speak one of our two official languages, that language being French. It does not however make them French. They are Canadians.
Ok OK i get it, all Canadians 1st but the Habs had advantage attracting French Canadian players ever prior to setting up their jr farm system.

Its not so much with them being revolutionary in how they set up their farm system its how little piece of the pie they left in Que for the other teams to try to do the same. And sure all the other teams could have set up a similar farm system close to home but they just didn't have the HUGE #'s of jr age players in their respective areas to draw on that the Habs did. I guess in a way the Habs are responsible for the growth of minor hockey in the 60's across Canada and into the Northern US. Other teams knew they needed a larger base for future players so in turn also pushed to develop local farm teams but were way way way behind what the Habs had in place even before they implemented their farm system. Its not fair at all, the Habs basically bought/took over what was allready there in hotbed areas of Que while the other teams had to build up from almost scratch. Also go look at the #'s of jr age players from after WW2 till the mid 60's and it went from upwards of 80% in Que to about 60% in 68.

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10-21-2013, 09:28 PM
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So they laid the foundation to their grass roots development program in their back yard, yet monopolized all the best areas? Did they set up farm teams in other provinces?

Honestly, this sounds like some historical whining. Loved the bit about leafs having the most fair cups!
They did have some across Northern Ontario, IIRC 1 for sure in Timmins and I think about 5 or 6 more but I believe they were primairly Hab owned feeder teams to the jr age teams in Que.

I don't see it as whining, the Habs were not fair considering the percentage of top talent that came out of Que from WW2-60's and how encompassing their farm system was. It would have been almost futile for any of the other clubs to try and set up a farm system in Que back then because the habs cherry picked all the high % areas.

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10-21-2013, 09:34 PM
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There's a movie based on the Ted Lindsay section of Net Worth, was made in '95, pretty good.

Anyways, I was fortunate to find the book at a Goodwill, I'd recommend people try to pick it up for cheap online used if possible because it's one of the best hockey books written, gives good insight to the scenes behind the game.
Net Worth? I'll look for it. It was soo shady back then. The Que provincial government actually helped financially support the Habs set up their farm system by building most of the rinks from tax dollars. Remember the political climate in Que was unique for Canada. You were seeing a divide between what was seen as the wealthy English minority and the blue collar French majority. The Habs were seen as a beacon to the French in Que and across Canada for that matter and it served the Que political agenda to have the Habs dominate with French players. Interesting stuff. Also kinda makes me mad at Leaf ownership and Ontario provincial government because the had the $$$ to stop the Habs implementation of their cherry picking farm system.

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10-21-2013, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
Not many know that in order for the NHL to expand in 67 the NHL had to end the monopoly on the pipeline to top French jr talent the Habs had.
(...)


It's funny how you start your post by talking about "monopoly" and then put up a source which contradicts that statement...

You really hate all of their Cups, don't you?


Last edited by Killion: 10-21-2013 at 11:21 PM. Reason: not really reqd...
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10-21-2013, 09:45 PM
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It is pretty amazing how the league allowed all of this to happen. Oh well, it's all in the past.

Didn't Selke try to force Beliveau to sign the C-form? They still pretty much forced Beliveau to play with the Habs.

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10-21-2013, 09:52 PM
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It's funny how you start your post by talking about "monopoly" and then put up a source which contradicts that statement...

You really hate all of their Cups, don't you?
i searched A Thinking Man's Guide to Pro Hockey, by Gerry Eskenazi, published in 1973, and I went to a link expecting it to be that. But that article is a prime example of how they try to use the territorial rule and no mention of what farm system each had access to cloud the real advantage.


Last edited by Killion: 10-21-2013 at 11:24 PM. Reason: Links been fixed...
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10-21-2013, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
nono I just got hit with the 24 cups thing and it makes my blood boil, look at the spread of cup wins prior to Selkie setting up his farm team monopoly 53 and its more fair then look at the # of wins the Habs have from 55-79(15 cups) all because of an unfair advantage in being able to obtain top french talent 1st. IMO the Leafs have the most fair cup wins with 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
ummm your joking right?? if not Quebec is primarily French and the political climate after the 2nd World War really started a divide for the French in Que.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
I am not talking about the territorial rule read the op



Ok OK i get it, all Canadians 1st but the Habs had advantage attracting French Canadian players ever prior to setting up their jr farm system.

Its not so much with them being revolutionary in how they set up their farm system its how little piece of the pie they left in Que for the other teams to try to do the same. And sure all the other teams could have set up a similar farm system close to home but they just didn't have the HUGE #'s of jr age players in their respective areas to draw on that the Habs did. I guess in a way the Habs are responsible for the growth of minor hockey in the 60's across Canada and into the Northern US. Other teams knew they needed a larger base for future players so in turn also pushed to develop local farm teams but were way way way behind what the Habs had in place even before they implemented their farm system. Its not fair at all, the Habs basically bought/took over what was allready there in hotbed areas of Que while the other teams had to build up from almost scratch. Also go look at the #'s of jr age players from after WW2 till the mid 60's and it went from upwards of 80% in Que to about 60% in 68.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
They did have some across Northern Ontario, IIRC 1 for sure in Timmins and I think about 5 or 6 more but I believe they were primairly Hab owned feeder teams to the jr age teams in Que.

I don't see it as whining, the Habs were not fair considering the percentage of top talent that came out of Que from WW2-60's and how encompassing their farm system was. It would have been almost futile for any of the other clubs to try and set up a farm system in Que back then because the habs cherry picked all the high % areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
Net Worth? I'll look for it. It was soo shady back then. The Que provincial government actually helped financially support the Habs set up their farm system by building most of the rinks from tax dollars. Remember the political climate in Que was unique for Canada. You were seeing a divide between what was seen as the wealthy English minority and the blue collar French majority. The Habs were seen as a beacon to the French in Que and across Canada for that matter and it served the Que political agenda to have the Habs dominate with French players. Interesting stuff. Also kinda makes me mad at Leaf ownership and Ontario provincial government because the had the $$$ to stop the Habs implementation of their cherry picking farm system.
The moral of this cautionary tale is that French Canadians from La Belle Province were the best hockey players in Canada (if not the world) as they won so many Cups for the Canadiens while being only 25% of the population of Canada.

Talk about David vs Goliath...

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10-21-2013, 09:56 PM
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It is pretty amazing how the league allowed all of this to happen. Oh well, it's all in the past.

Didn't Selke try to force Beliveau to sign the C-form? They still pretty much forced Beliveau to play with the Habs.
They did not force him.

The story is much cuter.

The Canadiens had his professional rights.

Jean played in a semi pro league after his junior.

The Canadiens bought the entire league and turned it into a pro league.

Et voilą, Jean had to play for the Canadiens.

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10-21-2013, 10:00 PM
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habs still won more then leafs afterwards. Also there is nothing wrong with what they did it actually inspired other teams to do the same.

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10-21-2013, 10:05 PM
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The Habs still have more cups since the expansion and the end of that rule than any other team, including the Maple Leafs. {mod}

Edit: lol didn't see the post before mine.


Last edited by Killion: 10-21-2013 at 11:26 PM. Reason: not reqd...
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10-21-2013, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
The moral of this cautionary tale is that French Canadians from La Belle Province were the best hockey players in Canada (if not the world) as they won so many Cups for the Canadiens while being only 25% of the population of Canada.

Talk about David vs Goliath...
Very true we as Canadians owe those hockey loving French Canadians soo much because without their initial contributions it wouldn't be the same.
I just wish they were more spread out across the 6 teams. Parity would have made the NHL better back then.

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10-21-2013, 10:20 PM
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The Habs still have more cups since the expansion and the end of that rule than any other team, including the Maple Leafs. {mod}

Edit: lol didn't see the post before mine.
the Cups the Habs won in the 70's even after the 1st fair draft in 69 were still due to players they gained before 69 and due to players they gained prior to 69 that they traded to get picks to get guys like Lafleur etc.

but they still have 86 and 93 so good on them for those 2 and any prior to 55.


Last edited by Killion: 10-21-2013 at 11:27 PM.
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10-22-2013, 12:20 AM
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So, essentially the Habs were a well managed hockey club and they won Cups because the other five teams were not as well run. They didn't want to get rid of the 'free market' system of the day that rewarded well managed hockey teams and go to a system that rewards poorly run clubs (i.e . the draft).

I'm glad they didn't get their way, but I kind of see where they are coming from.

And hockey in the 1960's sounds a lot like professional soccer today.

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10-22-2013, 12:40 AM
  #24
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Frank Selke, the so called "Architect" of this Conspiracy Theory also pulled the same number in Toronto & Ontario, laid the tracks & groundwork for the Leafs in the 30's & 40's before being run out of town on a rail by Conn Smythe who's ego was bruised. The Leafs had a monopoly on all top tier talent from the most densely populated parts of the english speaking countryside. Yet they still missed out on Bobby Orr & countless dozens more right in their own backyard & through the 60's sold off the farms, traded away their future for cash, little to nothing in return. Decimated what Selke & Conn Smythe Sr. had built up. Detroit & Chicago, Boston & New York were at a disadvantage. Simple as that. English Canadian kids growing up listening to Foster Hewitt were Leafs fans & thats who they dreamed of playing for. I dont see how Leaf Stanley Cups were "fair" and somehow Habs Cups were somehow "tarnished" between 55 & 79 as the op seems to be intimating. In fact quite the contrary. Regardless of linguistic ethnicity, Smythe & Selke recognized & understood the importance of building a strong farm & development system. Toronto had it, Selke employed the same model in Montreal. Simple as that.


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10-22-2013, 01:17 AM
  #25
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Frank Selke, the so called "Architect" of this Conspiracy Theory also pulled the same number in Toronto & Ontario, laid the tracks & groundwork for the Leafs in the 30's & 40's before being run out of town on a rail by Conn Smythe who's ego was bruised. The Leafs had a monopoly on all top tier talent from the most densely populated parts of the english speaking countryside. Yet they still missed out on Bobby Orr & countless dozens more right in their own backyard & through the 60's sold off the farms, traded away their future for cash, little to nothing in return. Decimated what Selke & Conn Smythe Sr. had built up. Detroit & Chicago, Boston & New York were at a disadvantage. Simple as that. English Canadian kids growing up listening to Foster Hewitt were Leafs fans & thats who they dreamed of playing for. I dont see how Leaf Stanley Cups were "fair" and somehow Habs Cups were somehow "tarnished" between 55 & 79 as the op seems to be intimating. In fact quite the contrary. Regardless of linguistic ethnicity, Smythe & Selke recognized & understood the importance of building a strong farm & development system. Toronto had it, Selke employed the same model in Montreal. Simple as that.
Didn't realize that you got the wrong "hockey sweater" as well for Christmas one year.

What you say is true though and the NHL game isn't as innocent and pure in the past that many people often gloss over or tend to forget.

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