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Old
10-21-2013, 06:23 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'm not sure I buy the Dolan angle. Sather doesn't seem to me to be the yes man hack who is going to kiss up to a guy who knows next to nothing about hockey. Glen Sather is the guru who built the mighty Edmonton Oiler dynasty. I don't see him letting some spoiled cable brat telling him how to run his business. And if Dolan was so bottom line focused, he's certainly ponied up enough money to pay the likes of Holik, Redden, Drury and soon to be Richards to not play for the Rangers. I know we're talking about different amounts of money but he's been lax about burning cash.

Dolan has been more involved interested in the higher profile Knicks — a team that has not been as successful as the Rangers.
Someone once told me that you don't get up high unless you're good at ducking. Dolan isn't holding Slats' puppet strings, instead it's Slats sweet talking his way into keeping a job. First it's Neil Smith's fault, then he needed to find a Coach, then he needed to find a coach for winning not developing. Now I hope he's run out of excuses.

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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
I agree, but if the only thing Dolan told Glen was, "I don't care who you sign, what it costs, just get me in the playoffs every year." I think that's more than enough to do the damage being done here. Glen still chooses how to do it, (very poorly of course) but if that was his only rule it would still mean avoiding a top 10 draft pick at all costs. Including trading for Joker and missing the playoffs by a shootout.

I hope you are right because otherwise we are in for a longgggg ride.
Exactly. And with the cap in place, the NHL regulates how much he can spend so Dolan has a solid financial winner.

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10-21-2013, 06:54 PM
  #77
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I remember being at a game just after the New Year in 2004. I could not believe how many empty seats there were. How resigned to defeat the whole place felt. Feeling like 2004 all over again.

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10-21-2013, 06:59 PM
  #78
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i must say, this might be the most intelligent, all encompassing thread about what is wrong with the franchise. props to SBOB and everyone who has chimed in here. Wish we could sticky this.

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10-21-2013, 07:01 PM
  #79
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Can we make a general doom and gloom thread? I know things are bad, but this place is absolutely flooded with the same sentiments repeatedly being displayed across almost identical threads.

Also, addressing this thread, I don't think that many teams would be good with half of their top 6 out. The Rangers look worse than they should, but that's a huge, huge handicap and I think it's silly to judge the team ultimately based on under 10 games of a bare-bones roster. Making a bunch of trades, or a coaching change, or front-office changes, or whatever else isn't necessary IMO. That is a knee-jerk Sather-like move.

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10-21-2013, 07:02 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
Agreed.

Locker room chemistry is just as important as on-ice chemistry. Problem is, most of the time fans, media, etc, don't see what's going on behind the scenes, so it's hard to make an accurate judgement call on the full effects of a trade.

That's why the HBO 24/7 was so interesting, and why so many people had doubts about the Nash trade from Day 1. You could see that 2011-12 group was really special.
That "special" team lost to a Devils team that had no business being in the finals. We got as far as we could with that team. Torts ran his course. Now, it's time to identify which core players to get rid of.

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10-21-2013, 07:17 PM
  #81
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Jeff Gorton has been in his current role since July 2011. Glen Sather is the boss. It doesn't matter if he has delegated the day to day ops to Gorton or before him Don Maloney. In 2006,Bobby Clarke resigned as Flyers boss. His AGM Paul Holmgren replaced him. He had different views than Clarke. Holmgren's teams made the ECF in 2008 and the Cup finals in 2010. Holmgren made a million trades. He was his own man. Jerry Reese is his own man too. I'm sure he had different views than Ernie but Ernie was the boss. Reese has fielded the worst Giants team since the 1970s. No running backs. No offensive line. No tight end. No pass rushers. Linebackers aren't important in the Giants scheme so Reese gets a pass too there. Reese doesn't talk to the media. He is taking a page from the Sather playbook. No accountability.



http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/gia...om-jerry-reese

Sather has to to go. If he has any self respect,Sather would admit his time running the team is over. He is 70 years old.
Reese gets a pass because he won two Super Bowls. How is he even comparable to Sather? I don't understand what you're getting at here.

If Sather wins a Cup, I'll allow him to die as GM for all I care. But he won't, so it's a moot point.

Just a poor comparison, though. The current Giants are team of former champions under Reese. The team has gotten older and is ready to be brought out to pasture.

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Old
10-21-2013, 07:26 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Can we make a general doom and gloom thread? I know things are bad, but this place is absolutely flooded with the same sentiments repeatedly being displayed across almost identical threads.

Also, addressing this thread, I don't think that many teams would be good with half of their top 6 out. The Rangers look worse than they should, but that's a huge, huge handicap and I think it's silly to judge the team ultimately based on under 10 games of a bare-bones roster. Making a bunch of trades, or a coaching change, or front-office changes, or whatever else isn't necessary IMO. That is a knee-jerk Sather-like move.
1 cup in 73 years, this is not a knee-jerk reaction.this has been seen many times before.
I am not a nay sayer, been rooting for this team for over 55 years and like many disgruntled fans, I am tired of the also ran mentality.
It is time for a change

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10-21-2013, 07:38 PM
  #83
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People keep saying this. How do you explain away the many years under Sather that the Rangers missed the playoffs ?

and on top of that blowing his bosses money left and right on hunches that never pan out.

The Rangers under Sather have missed the playoffs almost as much as have made them. So he isn't exactly the darling of revenue generation, add in the millions that have been squandered and the only conclusion is that he has pictures of Dolan banging goats or something.
That's not looking at things in context. He missed the playoffs the first 4 years at the helm. I concur that is somewhat of a long leash, but perhaps Dolan allows him an adjustment period, or gets the benefit of the doubt being the legendary Glen Sather.

After that he has only had a team miss the playoffs once. We all know that story. Not to mention. The team was competitive enough to make the playoffs, they just didn't get it done.

Lastly how many of those 4 missed playoff years were top 5 picks? Zero. The closest was '03-'04 at number 6. Another of those first 4 losses was 9th in the conference, another near miss.

By all accounts if Glen's only job was to make the playoffs every year, or at least be competitive enough to be in the race come April, then he has done a pretty good job. Honestly a better argument for why Dolan probably hasn't just given him carte blanche is that all the years he has made the playoffs guess who has been on the team? Yes, The King. So really you could say the only reason this team has made the playoffs since after the lockout is because of Henrik Lundqvist, and in reality has little to do with Glen.

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10-21-2013, 07:40 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
We had little offensive chemistry, but the locker room was rife with it. That is the chemistry that was disrupted.
I don't want to overrate how much the locker room chemistry disruption affected what we saw on the ice and I only say this bc again last year the on ice performance was pretty much status quo.


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10-21-2013, 07:45 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I pride myself on my panache.



That's sometimes true. The Rangers did have an identity. They made the Nash trade (and I still like the Nash deal) without having the pieces in place the replace what they gave up to get him. They didn't give up starts. But they did deal very specific kind off players for which they didn;t have internal replacements. They were also the kind of player that they have had trouble drafting and developing. That lack of internal options made them have to deal Gaborik to fill those spots and give the roster players who would fit into the coach's system.Then they fired the coach. This is the perfect example of a directionless organization with no vision or long-term plan.
Nash replaced one of those pieces (artie or Dubs). So let's say hypothetically he replaced Artie. I'd argue Nash does way more than simply replace Artie but let's just say it's even. We now have to replace Dubs. Not replacing Dubs would not have been the thing that tore the team apart. Combine "Not replacing Dubs" with losing Prust, Feds, Richards and Gabs. Most impactful of all is losing the latter two. If they played last year the way they usually played the team would have been much better. The Nash trade had nothing to do with those two falling off a cliff. You wrote up there u still like the Nash trade but too many people act like it did a significantly large amount of damage to the team which defies logic and ignores what happened to two 80 pt players who used to take over games


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10-21-2013, 08:58 PM
  #86
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Sather was nondescript when he fired Torts. Nothing. It boggles my mind that a GM in this city is allowed that kind of leeway.

All Sather said was that Torts was shocked. He never mentioned anything about what caused the firing. All people did was speculate that it was over Lundqvists comments.

The Clippers became relevant when that sham Sterling finally decided to spend money. For years he poisoned that franchise. As long as Dolan is running the Knicks and Rangers, neither team will ever win a championship or have a team built to sustain a decade's worth of contending.

Whatever. It's a long season.

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10-21-2013, 09:04 PM
  #87
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Reese gets a pass because he won two Super Bowls. How is he even comparable to Sather? I don't understand what you're getting at here.

If Sather wins a Cup, I'll allow him to die as GM for all I care. But he won't, so it's a moot point.

Just a poor comparison, though. The current Giants are team of former champions under Reese. The team has gotten older and is ready to be brought out to pasture.

Sather hasnt GM'ed a team to the SCF in 23 years.

After the Oilers made the CF in 1992, only one of his teams (2012) has made the CF.

I still dont think he's that bad. I'm just wondering why Dolan was willing to retool the Knicks front office but has no desire to do anything with Sather.

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10-21-2013, 09:57 PM
  #88
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I still dont think he's that bad. I'm just wondering why Dolan was willing to retool the Knicks front office but has no desire to do anything with Sather.
Isaiah Thomas made Sather look like Ken Holland as a GM and he might still be running the Knicks into the ground if wasn't for the sexual harassment suits. Jimmy Cablebuck$' one constant is that he likes BIG BIG NAMES. It's why he hired Thomas and a past-his-sell-date Sather in the first place, why he kept them on despite their tenures, and why, no matter who the GM is, the Rangers are very unlikely to rebuild around a homegrown team when there are BIG BIG NAMES out there on the free agent market.

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10-21-2013, 10:37 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I pride myself on my panache.



That's sometimes true. The Rangers did have an identity. They made the Nash trade (and I still like the Nash deal) without having the pieces in place the replace what they gave up to get him. They didn't give up starts. But they did deal very specific kind off players for which they didn;t have internal replacements. They were also the kind of player that they have had trouble drafting and developing. That lack of internal options made them have to deal Gaborik to fill those spots and give the roster players who would fit into the coach's system.Then they fired the coach. This is the perfect example of a directionless organization with no vision or long-term plan.
I never wanted Nash. I felt it was classic overreaction by Slats based on media complaints. "They don't score enough and block shots." So, he gives in and gets Nash moving core pieces that were part of team strength. I get the rationale for getting him. Acquiring a second scorer to complement Gaborik. It backfired. He accepted a deal to Columbus and ironically is reunited with Dubinsky and Anisimov. The move worked initially because it gave Tort more versatility. Brassard played well and Moore overachieved. It can still work out. But looks like it'll take time.

I was in favor of keeping the 2012 roster together. Everyone had a role and played it well under Tort. There was much better depth. By subtracting Arty, Dubi and then losing Prust, Fedotenko and Mitchell to free agency, Sather didn't adequately replace the missing parts. Instead, he threw a band aid on it hoping Pyatt and Asham would work. One is already gone while the other is AV's pet from Vancouver.

Take away Callahan and they are very soft. He's the foundation. In the past, they could rely on Dubinsky and Prust to play the same gritty game. Our team was harder to play against. The way Cally plays, injuries are common. That makes him a risk signing long term. But they have no choice. Now, Nash has concussion history on top of being soft. A bad combo with that contract. No wonder Columbus wanted to get rid of him.

Until kids like Kreider, Miller, Kristo, Lindberg, Fast, Hrivik, McIlrath develop, the team will struggle because the overall depth sucks. They need better from Zuccarello and Pouliot's done zilch aside from his hit on Salvador. He has talent but there's a reason he's on his fifth roster at 27. It's up to Vigneault to get the most out of it. Though I don't think Miller should be up playing second line. And Fast probably has to go back down. As for Kreider, who knows if he's ready? He doesn't have a ton of NHL experience. They were forced to recall him out of necessity. Hope he gets it.

It's a team without an identity. All created by Slats' poor decision making. Firing Tort on top of the Nash deal and replacing him with a much softer coach is radical. As you said, the personnel doesn't fit the system. They have to get back to playing the way they did under Tort. Ironic. Great post by you.

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10-21-2013, 11:20 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Sather hasnt GM'ed a team to the SCF in 23 years.

After the Oilers made the CF in 1992, only one of his teams (2012) has made the CF.

I still dont think he's that bad. I'm just wondering why Dolan was willing to retool the Knicks front office but has no desire to do anything with Sather.
Yeah, that's why I don't get the comparison (unless it was just to take a shot at Reese for some reason). Calling him "Sather" is sort of shortsighted.

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10-22-2013, 09:19 AM
  #91
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That "special" team lost to a Devils team that had no business being in the finals. We got as far as we could with that team. Torts ran his course. Now, it's time to identify which core players to get rid of.
Now is the time to identify what "core" players to get rid of? I'd say that the process has long been on the way.

And a loss in the ECF finals is nothing to hang your head in shame about. You have no idea if they could have gotten further. Fact is, blowing that team up has not been for the better. And quite stupid.

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10-22-2013, 09:25 AM
  #92
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Congrats on a fantastic post, SBOB!!! You said it all so eloquently. If I weren't already married...

I understand the people who say criticism at this point is reactionary...seven games is a small sample, and what a strange seven games it's been. New coach, new system, crazy road trip, extremely disjointed preseason, injuries to some key players, an all-world goalie not even playing at all-state level, starting the season playing some of those big meanies out west, Stepen still in training camp mode, blah blah blah.

Having a 2-5 record at this point is not horrific (although some of the games have been beyond horrific), but as you so clearly stated your points refer to the last 13 years, not the last 13 days.

The thing I really don't get is people putting this on Dolan. I despise Dolan and most everything he stands for (spoiled kid who was handed something his father earned and acts like he earned it, impetuous jerk who fires employees for being honest, Islander fan, representing everything that is wrong with the cable industry, etc.), but I don't see how he is to blame here.

Dolan has a GM who he leaves alone, lets run the ship (yes it's because Dolan doesn't like/doesn't care about hockey, but he still leaves Sather alone) and even pays for millions of dollars of that GM's mistakes. If Dolan had a good GM, we would be rightfully praising him as a model sports owner...in hockey anyway.

But Dolan DOESN'T have a good GM, he has everything SBOB said Sather is...and then some.

I also don't get the 'Dolan only cares about money angle' here...as if that somehow means Dolan likes mediocrity and doesn't care whether the team wins or not. The better the team is, the more the team wins, the more money Dolan makes. He can charge more for tickets, sell more merchandise, there will be closer to actually being 18,200 in the arena, not just 18,200 seats sold, leading to more concessions, etc., and the biggest ticket of all...HOME PLAYOFF GAMES. At a time of year when you're not even paying the players anymore. An owner's dream.

Just as teams like the Leafs and Raiders were mired in mediocrity (and worse) until Harold Ballard and Al Davis passed away and new blood came into management, the Rangers will also be mired in mediocrity until the Sather (who has owner rights, meaning he'll never be fired) regime finally ends. Because Sather is a GM and not an actual owner, the good news is he doesn't have to pass away in order for us to get a new GM.

He just has to go away. Please.

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10-22-2013, 09:27 AM
  #93
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Also, addressing this thread, I don't think that many teams would be good with half of their top 6 out. The Rangers look worse than they should, but that's a huge, huge handicap and I think it's silly to judge the team ultimately based on under 10 games of a bare-bones roster.
You missed my point. This team actually has very little do with anything I wrote in my opening post.

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Making a bunch of trades, or a coaching change, or front-office changes, or whatever else isn't necessary IMO. That is a knee-jerk Sather-like move.
Again, this season really isn't the main crux of my point

1) I'm not advocating for any trades.

2) I'm advocating for the coach to get fired.

3) I am advocating for change in the front office. Now if you excuse me, I have a few windmills to tilt at.

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10-22-2013, 09:57 AM
  #94
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We all know that Sather is the main problem, but let's talk about realistic changes that need to be made.

1. If things continue (being dominated by opponents) AV (and the whole staff sans Allaire) needs to get fired.

2. Superfluous players (MZA, Dominic "wins faceoffs with his hands" Moore, Poopalot, Pyatt, etc.) need to be removed from the team via waivers, trade, etc. We have to get players in here that can at least compete. Right now we have way too much junk in the lineup. Injuries or not, this is not acceptable.

3. Order needs to be restored. Hire Peter Laviolette

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10-22-2013, 10:03 AM
  #95
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We all know that Sather is the main problem, but let's talk about realistic changes that need to be made.

1. If things continue (being dominated by opponents) AV (and the whole staff sans Allaire) needs to get fired.

2. Superfluous players (MZA, Dominic "wins faceoffs with his hands" Moore, Poopalot, Pyatt, etc.) need to be removed from the team via waivers, trade, etc. We have to get players in here that can at least compete. Right now we have way too much junk in the lineup. Injuries or not, this is not acceptable.

3. Order needs to be restored. Hire Peter Laviolette
See I just think this keeps chaos revolving around this team. I can understand where you're coming from, but without an organizational philosophy and team identity, the moves you propose aren't filtered through the lens of anything. They're more shot in the dark moves made in a vacuum.

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10-22-2013, 10:15 AM
  #96
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See I just think this keeps chaos revolving around this team. I can understand where you're coming from, but without an organizational philosophy and team identity, the moves you propose aren't filtered through the lens of anything. They're more shot in the dark moves made in a vacuum.
I hear you, and I agree, but... how bad to we let things get, here?

Something has to be done to stop the bleeding, at some point. Unless of course our organizational philosophy is to "suck for Sam".

As long as Sather is GM, we probably won't have a cohesive strategy for the future, so my proposed moves are indeed, moves to try to make the current situation less disgusting.

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10-22-2013, 11:13 AM
  #97
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See I just think this keeps chaos revolving around this team. I can understand where you're coming from, but without an organizational philosophy and team identity, the moves you propose aren't filtered through the lens of anything. They're more shot in the dark moves made in a vacuum.
I agree with everything you said in this thread, I just don't see any way out unless they find an owner who will let them really rebuild with the proper patience it takes. Then that owner hires someone who has the vision and skills to take what they have now and turn it into that vision.

Until that happens this is all arithmetic. It will always be "rebuild while remaining competitive." Any GM would be fired if he really rebuilt without the consent of the owner, and even if he did get the nod he still might be fired if the owner changed his mind, lost patience or felt the rebuild was not going well.

Sather has played this whole thing pretty well in terms of occupational security, like the team, dislike the team, good moves, bad moves, but as long as the team is not forgotten all is well. One hand on marketing, one hand on playoffs, lots of interesting characters whether players or coaches, selling hope with UFA's, trades yearly. The only thing that goes stale is the fact they are never going to be considered real contenders by the few that understand what that means.

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10-22-2013, 11:31 AM
  #98
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I agree with everything you said in this thread, I just don't see any way out unless they find an owner who will let them really rebuild with the proper patience it takes. Then that owner hires someone who has the vision and skills to take what they have now and turn it into that vision.
This team could rebuild quickly assuming you have someone with a vision and courage. There's young talent playing in the NHL. The farm system is not completely bare. It's not like when Sather took over in 2000.

And I have to wonder if it's Dolan who gave the mandate that the Rangers couldn't rebuild. I don't think he has the ability to think in those terms. I think it's more of an issue that the GM is constantly, in his own mind, the smartest person in the room who can work miracles.

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Until that happens this is all arithmetic. It will always be "rebuild while remaining competitive." Any GM would be fired if he really rebuilt without the consent of the owner, and even if he did get the nod he still might be fired if the owner changed his mind, lost patience or felt the rebuild was not going well.
If a GM came in with a clear vision for the future and a timeline, it's up to the owner to out his trust in that GM to make it so. And then hold him accountable.

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Sather has played this whole thing pretty well in terms of occupational security, like the team, dislike the team, good moves, bad moves, but as long as the team is not forgotten all is well. One hand on marketing, one hand on playoffs, lots of interesting characters whether players or coaches, selling hope with UFA's, trades yearly. The only thing that goes stale is the fact they are never going to be considered real contenders by the few that understand what that means.
I don't believe that Sather is acting out of malice. I genuinely think he doesn't realize that the game has passed him by. And I do think he's lazy. And I think there's a general inability to look ahead—something that's essential for long-term success in a salary cap world.

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10-22-2013, 11:48 AM
  #99
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Team could rebuild sort of quickly but then again it would be shortcuts. They'd never learn how to draft, trade and sign with one direction in mind, it would still be compromise based on who's available.

If Dolan mandated a true contending team Sather would have been fired. Either he does not know what one looks like or is plenty happy just staying out of it as long as the money graphs point north.

Never said malice, I think Sather knows full well he has to do the things he does to keep everyone interested. Ticket buyers, luxury box buyers, advertisers, even the writers and pundits, the majority want the players Sather gets.

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10-22-2013, 11:53 AM
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SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
If Dolan mandated a true contending team Sather would have been fired. Either he does not know what one looks like or is plenty happy just staying out of it as long as the money graphs point north.

Again, I'm not sure I believe that. Sather and Dolan seem to have a relationship that goes beyond the purely professional. And Dolan has a history of letting friendships or admiration trumps professional results.

I also think that if Dolan ever fired Sather, he would have no idea what to do next. Remember the circumstances under which Sather was hired. Bettman told Dolan to make to hire Sather.

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