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Old
10-22-2013, 11:53 AM
  #101
WhipNash27
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As horrible as it is to say, losing Lundqvist may be the only way forward with this team. Why? Because we'll probably finally suck enough to get some top 5 picks and get some top quality players in the draft. Because maybe finally Slats will go and we'll get new blood in town (paging JD!)

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10-22-2013, 12:08 PM
  #102
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Again, I'm not sure I believe that. Sather and Dolan seem to have a relationship that goes beyond the purely professional. And Dolan has a history of letting friendships or admiration trumps professional results.

I also think that if Dolan ever fired Sather, he would have no idea what to do next. Remember the circumstances under which Sather was hired. Bettman told Dolan to make to hire Sather.
Is there a difference between staying out of it as long as things financially go well and letting friendships or admiration trump results?

I think Dolan thinks Sather is doing a very good job. It's not like the team is less valuable than it has been, not like they are having trouble finding advertisers, not like they are not willing to throw money into a renovation.

Compared to when Sather first got here they are making the playoffs, sometimes even winning a round or two.

The only people who should be unhappy are those who believe this team was not and will never be a true contender by doing the things they do. Other than that what is there really to complain about?

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10-23-2013, 09:23 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
Is there a difference between staying out of it as long as things financially go well and letting friendships or admiration trump results?
There is to me.


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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
I think Dolan thinks Sather is doing a very good job. It's not like the team is less valuable than it has been, not like they are having trouble finding advertisers, not like they are not willing to throw money into a renovation.
I think Dolan thinks Sather is doing a good job because Sather tells him that he is.

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Compared to when Sather first got here they are making the playoffs, sometimes even winning a round or two.
Again, I think this is more an issue of Dolan being ignorant more than Dolan being a money grubber.

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The only people who should be unhappy are those who believe this team was not and will never be a true contender by doing the things they do. Other than that what is there really to complain about?
I guess I'm in the that group.

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Old
10-23-2013, 11:04 AM
  #104
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I guess I'm in the that group.
As am I

But you have to admit looking at what the fans wanted over the years has not helped either.

Most were wetting their pants for Richards. Many wanted not only to sign him, many wanted to trade assets for him the season prior.

Clowe, most thought that was a great rental.

Nash, most were falling over themselves thinking he was the greatest player ever, most thought his production would skyrocket once out of talentless Columbus.

Can go back even further, Gomez, Drury, Naslund, Shanahan, Redden. Most fans have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to building a team with real contention in mind. I would assume that to be true for the owner, for the marketers, for the sponsors as well.

Sather just gives them what they are asking for. Even those who want a rebuild, me included, we did not get our complete wish, we got half of one with the youngish talent that was drafted, developed and put on the team.

Sather gave the fans what they asked for, they wanted "stars". They wanted quick fixes, they wanted some drafted and developed players, they got them.

Sather gave everyone, ownership, marketers, paper writers, shills, what they wanted except for those who want a true contending team and knows what one looks like.

He made the majority of those people happy throughout the years.

We'll see it again soon, probably already have, where people want trades made just for the sake of a shake-up. At the deadline when they realize what other washed up former good player is available. We'll see it in the off-season when whatever flawed UFA is available. That is the majority, they do not think in any particular direction. This team is built on whims just like the majority of the fans wanted.

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10-23-2013, 11:06 AM
  #105
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As am I

But you have to admit looking at what the fans wanted over the years has not helped either.

Most were wetting their pants for Richards. Many wanted not only to sign him, many wanted to trade assets for him the season prior.

Clowe, most thought that was a great rental.

Nash, most were falling over themselves thinking he was the greatest player ever, most thought his production would skyrocket once out of talentless Columbus.

Can go back even further, Gomez, Drury, Naslund, Shanahan, Redden. Most fans have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to building a team with real contention in mind. I would assume that to be true for the owner, for the marketers, for the sponsors as well.

Sather just gives them what they are asking for. Even those who want a rebuild, me included, we did not get our complete wish, we got half of one with the youngish talent that was drafted, developed and put on the team.

Sather gave the fans what they asked for, they wanted "stars". They wanted quick fixes, they wanted some drafted and developed players, they got them.

Sather gave everyone, ownership, marketers, paper writers, shills, what they wanted except for those who want a true contending team and knows what one looks like.

He made the majority of those people happy throughout the years.

We'll see it again soon, probably already have, where people want trades made just for the sake of a shake-up. At the deadline when they realize what other washed up former good player is available. We'll see it in the off-season when whatever flawed UFA is available. That is the majority, they do not think in any particular direction. This team is built on whims just like the fans wanted.
Most fans prefer that drama of a deal as opposed to its long-term implications. Whatever, they're fans.

Its when you have a GM running the show with the same type of rudderless mentality where you really have a problem.

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Old
10-23-2013, 11:21 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Off Sides View Post
As am I

But you have to admit looking at what the fans wanted over the years has not helped either.

Most were wetting their pants for Richards. Many wanted not only to sign him, many wanted to trade assets for him the season prior.

Clowe, most thought that was a great rental.

Nash, most were falling over themselves thinking he was the greatest player ever, most thought his production would skyrocket once out of talentless Columbus.

Can go back even further, Gomez, Drury, Naslund, Shanahan, Redden. Most fans have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to building a team with real contention in mind. I would assume that to be true for the owner, for the marketers, for the sponsors as well.

Sather just gives them what they are asking for. Even those who want a rebuild, me included, we did not get our complete wish, we got half of one with the youngish talent that was drafted, developed and put on the team.

Sather gave the fans what they asked for, they wanted "stars". They wanted quick fixes, they wanted some drafted and developed players, they got them.

Sather gave everyone, ownership, marketers, paper writers, shills, what they wanted except for those who want a true contending team and knows what one looks like.

He made the majority of those people happy throughout the years.

We'll see it again soon, probably already have, where people want trades made just for the sake of a shake-up. At the deadline when they realize what other washed up former good player is available. We'll see it in the off-season when whatever flawed UFA is available. That is the majority, they do not think in any particular direction. This team is built on whims just like the majority of the fans wanted.
I hold my GM to a higher standard than the fans.

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10-23-2013, 11:50 AM
  #107
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I do as well, I share your opinions for the most part, however it appears to me as if there is a higher order of business going on here that the GM is just a puppet to, just as much as the coach is a puppet to the players the GM hands him.

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10-23-2013, 12:09 PM
  #108
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I do as well, I share your opinions for the most part, however it appears to me as if there is a higher order of business going on here that the GM is just a puppet to, just as much as the coach is a puppet to the players the GM hands him.
I disagree entirely.

In fact, I think Sather's inflated sense of self-worth is the key catalyst for these issues. Sather acts like an owner instead of a GM. Owners are supposed to be the ones that provide high-level quotes with no details like "Our goal is to win the Stanley Cup."

GM's are supposed to take that message, and work hard to fill in the details. I long for the day we get a GM here who doesn't view himself as a big shot.

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10-23-2013, 12:21 PM
  #109
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I disagree entirely.

In fact, I think Sather's inflated sense of self-worth is the key catalyst for these issues. Sather acts like an owner instead of a GM. Owners are supposed to be the ones that provide high-level quotes with no details like "Our goal is to win the Stanley Cup."

GM's are supposed to take that message, and work hard to fill in the details. I long for the day we get a GM here who doesn't view himself as a big shot.
I wish I thought it was just Sather, there might be an end to the tunnel.

There is no way ownership puts the type of money they did into renovating a building to have one of the teams that plays there rebuild.

There is a whole hierarchy of things going on, everything from marketing, sales, viewership, demand for box, tickets, lots of analysis going on behind the scenes. They see the Ranger sign Richards and jump in sales that same day it tells them something.

It happens
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"We've seen a spike in season tickets," Vanderbeek said of the increased interest in his team since last Monday when the Kovalchuk deal was announced. "A lot of interest and a fair amount of buying. The good news for us was we were already above last year maybe by 4%, at least two weeks ago, but we've seen a spike in interest over the last week and a half."
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ho...#ixzz2iZCZNrAB

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ho...ticle-1.468542

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10-23-2013, 12:24 PM
  #110
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I wish I thought it was just Sather, there might be an end to the tunnel.

There is no way ownership puts the type of money they did into renovating a building to have one of the teams that plays there rebuild.

There is a whole hierarchy of things going on, everything from marketing, sales, viewership, demand for box, tickets, lots of analysis going on behind the scenes. They see the Ranger sign Richards and jump in sales that same day it tells them something.

It happens.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ho...#ixzz2iZCZNrAB

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ho...ticle-1.468542
How'd that work out for Vanderbeek?

Players come and go. A good GM's legacy lies in his ability to instill vision and direction.

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10-23-2013, 12:26 PM
  #111
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In fact, I think Sather's inflated sense of self-worth is the key catalyst for these issues. Sather acts like an owner instead of a GM. Owners are supposed to be the ones that provide high-level quotes with no details like "Our goal is to win the Stanley Cup."
I've always hated when Sather has made those stupid quotes (especially pre-lockout1.0) for two reasons:

1) That's not a goal that a time can control.

2) If someone held him to his own standard it would be clear that he's been an abject and unequivocal failure.

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10-23-2013, 12:29 PM
  #112
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How'd that work out for Vanderbeek?
It's not about how it worked out, it about how things go in business.

What do you think Sather is tasked with?

Win championships or to make money? Which takes precedence over the other?

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10-23-2013, 12:39 PM
  #113
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It's not about how it worked out, it about how things go in business.

What do you think Sather is tasked with?

Win championships or to make money? Which takes precedence over the other?
Vanderbeek signed Kovalchuk, then proceeded to bankrupt the team.

Are you implying that Sather's acquisitions are what make the New York Rangers money?

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10-23-2013, 12:41 PM
  #114
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Sather is Joe McGrath from Slap Shot. Instead of, "I knew Eddie Shore," It's "I coached Wayne Gretzky."

"Jimmy, did I ever tell you about the time Paul Coffey farted in the locker room?"

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10-23-2013, 12:52 PM
  #115
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From the chat with Pat Leonard----

Quote:
Is there any possible way that the GM would have to take consequences of this lost season if it comes to that? Knowing well that the firing of Tortorella was inevitable and necessary - perhaps the choice of AV as new coach was yet another blooper done by the 70 year old that once said (regarding having the GM position in NYC) - "If I had their payroll, my team would never lose." Bets are off there - no?
by BBKers 7:49 PM
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As you know, Sather's job is incredibly secure, but if it got bad enough, can't see how we would avoid blame - by Pat Leonard 7:50 PM
Thanks Pat. Good to know WE are to blame...

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10-23-2013, 01:18 PM
  #116
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Vanderbeek signed Kovalchuk, then proceeded to bankrupt the team.

Are you implying that Sather's acquisitions are what make the New York Rangers money?
No I am implying exactly what it says.

It's a Business, Business decisions are made regardless of the actual impact they have on the roster.

Why are you not blaming the Devil's GM for signing Kovalchuk?

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10-23-2013, 01:57 PM
  #117
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No I am implying exactly what it says.

It's a Business, Business decisions are made regardless of the actual impact they have on the roster
So, paying several players tens of millions of dollars to NOT play hockey is good for business? Sather's budgeting bloopers are even more egregious than the poor rosters he churns out year after year.

Ranger fans are amongst the most loyal in any sport - this is also NYC, where its quite a bit easier to fill an 18,000 seat arena with 8M+ people roaming the streets.

I dont understand your argument because it makes zero sense.

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10-23-2013, 02:18 PM
  #118
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So, paying several players tens of millions of dollars to NOT play hockey is good for business? Sather's budgeting bloopers are even more egregious than the poor rosters he churns out year after year.

Ranger fans are amongst the most loyal in any sport - this is also NYC, where its quite a bit easier to fill an 18,000 seat arena with 8M+ people roaming the streets.

I dont understand your argument because it makes zero sense.
There's also a ton of corporate money that pours into the Garden regardless of how the teams perform.

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10-23-2013, 02:43 PM
  #119
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I think most people realize that Sather is the problem, but accept that he will be the GM until he's dead.

The stuff posted in this thread is great and informative, but it's basically preaching to the choir.

Even after he's gone, I wouldn't be surprised if Doug Risebrough took over instead of Jeff Gorton (BARF). This team cares more about image rather than actually having a successful hockey team. Do we, as fans, really trust Sather/Dolan to bring in a new GM with actual promise, not just another retread?

Praying that Gorton gets the job when Sather finally leaves. If not, I'd say we're ****ed.

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10-23-2013, 02:48 PM
  #120
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So, paying several players tens of millions of dollars to NOT play hockey is good for business? Sather's budgeting bloopers are even more egregious than the poor rosters he churns out year after year.

Ranger fans are amongst the most loyal in any sport - this is also NYC, where its quite a bit easier to fill an 18,000 seat arena with 8M+ people roaming the streets.

I dont understand your argument because it makes zero sense.
There is a cap correct?

There player payroll besides buyouts is set.

Which team is more marketable to advertisers, to those who buy luxury boxes, to those who can afford to sit in the high priced seats, One with Richards, Nash and the other name players on it or one who is rebuilding through the draft?

The couple million in buyouts pales in comparison to selling out luxury boxes, to getting high paying advertisers to do just that on the network they own. To the merchandising opportunities. To the regular ticket buyer.

They'd still make money regardless, but in order to charge more every year for all those things you have to increase demand for those things. How do you do that, you sell marketable players. why else do you think we've seen Lindros, Messier, Jagr, Shanahan, Naslund, Gaborik, Richards, Nash here? Because they lose money on them?

The point of this team is not to contend for years upon years, it's to make as much money as possible yearly.

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10-23-2013, 02:53 PM
  #121
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There is a cap correct?

There player payroll besides buyouts is set.

Which team is more marketable to advertisers, to those who buy luxury boxes, to those who can afford to sit in the high priced seats, One with Richards, Nash and the other name players on it or one who is rebuilding through the draft?

The couple million in buyouts pales in comparison to selling out luxury boxes, to getting high paying advertisers to do just that on the network they own. To the merchandising opportunities. To the regular ticket buyer.

They'd still make money regardless, but in order to charge more every year for all those things you have to increase demand for those things. How do you do that, you sell marketable players. why else do you think we've seen Lindros, Messier, Jagr, Shanahan, Naslund, Gaborik, Richards, Nash here? Because they lose money on them?

The point of this team is not to contend for years upon years, it's to make as much money as possible yearly.

I would say the most marketable team is the one that wins.

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10-23-2013, 02:58 PM
  #122
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The most marketable team is the one that wins.
In some markets you are correct.

What is easier and safer, to go about it the way Sather has or to actually build a real contender through the draft. He said it as much himself when he said something along the lines of we are rebuilding while remaining competitive. What GM in their right mind does that as a road to contention without there being some sort of ownership influence on remaining competitive?

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10-23-2013, 03:02 PM
  #123
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In some market you are correct,

What is easier and safer, to go about it the way Sather has or to actually build a real contender through the draft. He said it as much himself when he said something along the lines of we are rebuilding while remaining competitive. What GM in their right mind does that as a road to contention without there being some sort of ownership influence on remaining competitive?
The GM's of the Red Wings, Devils, Sharks, Bruins, Ducks, Blues, Canucks, Kings, to name a few.

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10-23-2013, 03:10 PM
  #124
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What is easier and safer, to go about it the way Sather has or to actually build a real contender through the draft.

See, that's the problem he's done the easy thing at all times. Building a team that can consistantly compete for the Cup takes time and hard work. Sather has shown no interest in putting in that hard work. Isn't it interesting that this franchise started to slightly right itself after a salary cap came in and forced the front office to work harder at drafting and developing — things they should have been doing from the start?

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He said it as much himself when he said something along the lines of we are rebuilding while remaining competitive.
A great sound bight. Up there with "Our goal every year is to win the Stanley Cup" and whatever that BS was about being a lion or mouse while dealing for a handle with care Eric Lindros.

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What GM in their right mind does that as a road to contention without there being some sort of ownership influence on remaining competitive?
The one's who are ultimately successful.

Look, whether or not this whole thing was owner-mandated, it still comes down to fact that there has been a history and consistent pattern of poor talent evaluation.


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10-23-2013, 03:21 PM
  #125
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Sather came here with a money mentality. It wasn't something that was mandated by Dolan. Especially when you consider the "If I had their payroll" bit he said well before he came here. This was a 'buy a championship' kind of front-office from the get go.

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