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I'm going to defend Holmgren for a second.

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Old
10-22-2013, 01:52 PM
  #1
1865
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I'm going to defend Holmgren for a second.

This won't be popular, but I think a lot of the hate aimed at Holmgren is harsh. Sure, he's made mistakes like any GM but I don't think it's much on him. The team we're putting out each game isn't low on talent. They're young, talented and simply underperforming. I mean, let's look at a few of our key individuals:

Giroux is at a pace 50 points below his usual, Simmonds is 30 points below last year, Voracek 48 points below. Of the rest, Read managed 46 points, Hartnell averages 52 points, Timonen was third for D points in the league, yet none of those three have even scored a point yet.

This isn't down to the GM, it's a coaching problem and he's fired the guy who's responsible. He's put together a team mixed with players who have a history of scoring points in Philadelphia or excellent prospects but they're flat-out not doing it this year. Our failures are down to a pathetic camp, injuries to key players and pressure compounding pressure if you ask me.

Hell, our saviour right now is the goalie nobody wanted but Holmgren saw the potential in. It's not Holmgren's fault that the forwards aren't scoring, that Pronger went down, that Giroux injured his hand and that Voracek had that car accident. We've got a good team on paper and that's Holmgren's job. I firmly believe that with a remotely-competent training camp and a fully-fit team we'd be riding fairly high right now, neither of them can be attributed to Holmgren and that's why I think he deserves more time.


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10-22-2013, 01:59 PM
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This won't be popular, but I think a lot of the hate aimed at Holmgren is harsh. Sure, he's made mistakes like any GM but I don't think it's much on him. The team we're putting out each game isn't low on talent. They're young, talented and simply underperforming. I mean, let's look at a few of our key individuals:

Giroux is at a pace 50 points below his usual, Simmonds is 30 points below, Voracek 48 points below last year, Read managed 46 last year, Timonen was third for D points in the league, Hartnell averages 52 points with us, none of those three have even scored a point yet.

This isn't down to the GM. He's put together a team full of players who have scored points in Philadelphia but they're flat-out not doing it this year. Our failures are down to a pathetic camp, injuries to key players and pressure compounding pressure.

Hell, our saviour right now is the goalie nobody wanted but Holmgren saw the potential in. It's not Holmgren's fault that the forwards aren't scoring, that Pronger went down, that Giroux injured his hand and that Voracek had that car accident. We've got a good team on paper and that's Holmgren's job.

I firmly believe that with a remotely-competent training camp and a fully-fit team we'd be riding fairly high right now.
ok for a second this sounds reasonable..beyond that it's pure insanity.

A GM that apparently "overrates" his team and players as he himself admitted after the 2010-2011 season and that now the owner is suggesting may be the case again doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt much longer. Last couple of seasons he's been horrible as a GM..

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10-22-2013, 02:01 PM
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He should have fired Lavi in March or April. It was obvious.

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10-22-2013, 02:03 PM
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ok for a second this sounds reasonable..beyond that it's pure insanity.

A GM that apparently "overrates" his team and players as he himself admitted after the 2010-2011 season and that now the owner is suggesting may be the case again doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt much longer. Last couple of seasons he's been horrible as a GM..
How? Have we made many bad trades? Signed many bad contracts (Streit aside)? We all know the real reason Bryzgalov was signed, at least he dealt with it.

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10-22-2013, 02:14 PM
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How? Have we made many bad trades? Signed many bad contracts (Streit aside)? We all know the real reason Bryzgalov was signed, at least he dealt with it.
Check out the Holmgren thread where he should be fired and some other threads I'm on record with a host of grievances. Talking about Holmgren just gives me agita anymore...

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10-22-2013, 02:14 PM
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The only guys left from the 2010 run are Giroux, Timonen, Coburn and Hartnell.

The team has been completely overhauled in a little over three years and the team missed the playoffs last year and is off to the worst start in franchise history.

How is coaching the only significant problem when the roster has had so much turnover in such a short period?

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10-22-2013, 02:16 PM
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This all stops at Homer.

And sure, Snider is probably the fuel for Bryz. But do you know who created the conditions that caused Snider's tantrum? Homer, when he idiotically signed Leighton to be the goalie, forcing him to roll with a rookie immediately instead of developing him properly, leading in turn to the playoff meltdown and the whole **** blizzard that has followed.

Then there's the years of trading away prospects and draft picks, necessitating the 2011 trades, and also necessitating the incredibly expensive D corps since Gus is the only homegrown talent we have.

Homer's job is to put the team in the best situation to succeed, and at the end of the day he has routinely made winning more difficult than it needs to be. He does a lot of good stuff, but he also does a lot of bad stuff that does much to negate the good.

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10-22-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
The only guys left from the 2010 run are Giroux, Timonen, Coburn and Hartnell.

The team has been completely overhauled in a little over three years and the team missed the playoffs last year and is off to the worst start in franchise history.

How is coaching the only significant problem when the roster has had so much turnover in such a short period?
Yup..one of my grievances. This organization has been way too reactionary and unstable last few years. It's not the mark of a good business when you have so much turnover, turmoil and drama and the product continues to be subpar....

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10-22-2013, 02:27 PM
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I have been one of the biggest Holmgren defenders up until this point because of the team's success before now, but if this team doesn't rebound for the playoffs he has to go. The man supposedly really loves scouting so let him step down, take some executive sounding position and let him scout. He is a very good judge of talent but not team chemistry. There has been a lack of veteran leadership and lockerroom accountability since he got here except for the short time under Pronger and Jason Smith, which coincidently coincided with the best postseasons under Holmgren's watch.

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10-22-2013, 02:37 PM
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So, let me ask, Clarke & Holmgren have been the only two GMs for like what 20 years? The team has made the playoffs most of the time, made the cup a couple of times, made the ECF like 5 (?) times.

So for the most part, both GMs have put really good teams on the ice.

However, neither put together a championship, was it 100% on them? Maybe, I don't really know how to answer that.

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10-22-2013, 02:38 PM
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that Pronger went down
Can we please stop using this as an excuse already. None of us expected him to play out that contract. We knew he was done since 2011 and his cap room has been occupied.

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10-22-2013, 03:04 PM
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Can we please stop using this as an excuse already. None of us expected him to play out that contract. We knew he was done since 2011 and his cap room has been occupied.
Can we stop using that as an excuse? We paid a hell of a price for Pronger and mortgaged a bit of the future. It was a good trade with an unfortunate outcome. We lost a good few picks and Lupul for what turned out to be one year of Pronger. That's why it's still a fair excuse.

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10-22-2013, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
The only guys left from the 2010 run are Giroux, Timonen, Coburn and Hartnell.

The team has been completely overhauled in a little over three years and the team missed the playoffs last year and is off to the worst start in franchise history.

How is coaching the only significant problem when the roster has had so much turnover in such a short period?
These are all tremendous points CanadianFlyer88, and let me add Holmgren's habit of allowing no trade clauses in so many contracts. The Hartnell contract is an absolute failure. Hartnell is greatly over rated, his best season was when Jaromir Jagr was on the team, and the older Jagr actually got that lazy sack of **** to work out and produce on the ice. Since then, he's gone back to being the lazy party boy, over rated do nothing that the Philly sports media loves.
I think Hartnell could be traded, but since Holmgren allowed a no movement clause, the Flyers are stuck with him.
Holmgren is a lousy GM, just as he was a lousy player.
Holmgren is Snider's puppet, so I don't think he'll be sacked.....but he should be!

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10-22-2013, 03:14 PM
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I don't think he's "lousy"

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10-22-2013, 03:14 PM
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These are all tremendous points CanadianFlyer88, and let me add Holmgren's habit of allowing no trade clauses in so many contracts. The Hartnell contract is an absolute failure. Hartnell is greatly over rated, his best season was when Jaromir Jagr was on the team, and the older Jagr actually got that lazy sack of **** to work out and produce on the ice. Since then, he's gone back to being the lazy party boy, over rated do nothing that the Philly sports media loves.
I think Hartnell could be traded, but since Holmgren allowed a no movement clause, the Flyers are stuck with him.
Holmgren is a lousy GM, just as he was a lousy player.
Holmgren is Snider's puppet, so I don't think he'll be sacked.....but he should be!
How many of these NTC's have come back to haunt us?

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10-22-2013, 03:17 PM
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These are all tremendous points CanadianFlyer88, and let me add Holmgren's habit of allowing no trade clauses in so many contracts. The Hartnell contract is an absolute failure. Hartnell is greatly over rated, his best season was when Jaromir Jagr was on the team, and the older Jagr actually got that lazy sack of **** to work out and produce on the ice. Since then, he's gone back to being the lazy party boy, over rated do nothing that the Philly sports media loves.
I think Hartnell could be traded, but since Holmgren allowed a no movement clause, the Flyers are stuck with him.
Holmgren is a lousy GM, just as he was a lousy player.
Holmgren is Snider's puppet, so I don't think he'll be sacked.....but he should be!
I do find it disturbing that Jagr had to be the inspiration for Hartnell to get into shape. The following season ,even before his injury, he was not in shape for camp. This year he was in shape but now the injury..let's see how he comes back.

Now this season we have Voracek who didn't show up in shape....just like last year when he was eating his mom's home cooking or whatever during the lockout.

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10-22-2013, 03:28 PM
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the only reason he's looking stupid is because Pronger was injured


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10-22-2013, 03:31 PM
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These are all tremendous points CanadianFlyer88, and let me add Holmgren's habit of allowing no trade clauses in so many contracts. The Hartnell contract is an absolute failure. Hartnell is greatly over rated, his best season was when Jaromir Jagr was on the team, and the older Jagr actually got that lazy sack of **** to work out and produce on the ice. Since then, he's gone back to being the lazy party boy, over rated do nothing that the Philly sports media loves.
I think Hartnell could be traded, but since Holmgren allowed a no movement clause, the Flyers are stuck with him.
Holmgren is a lousy GM, just as he was a lousy player.
Holmgren is Snider's puppet, so I don't think he'll be sacked.....but he should be!
That's funny considering Hartnell is said to be in the best shape of his career right now. I'm not going to defend the contract, but you're clearly wrong on him being lazy.

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10-22-2013, 03:32 PM
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the only reason he's looking stupid is becuase Pronger was injured
False


It had an impact no doubt and made his job more difficult but it is still his job to address it properly. Tough task but he hasn't really even done an average job with mitigating the void at the very least...

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10-22-2013, 03:32 PM
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I have a hard time blaming Homer because on paper the team is good and its hard to say that they're overrated players who have inflated point totals because of the success in 2011-12. I'm not ready to throw the guy under the bus for a bad start because I think we've all seen some serious improvement since Laviolette was fired. While I'm not exactly a Homer apologist I think he has an unfair job because of the pressure exerted on him by Snider. It's clear that he wants to be patient with young players but at the same time, the fan base wants to fire him after a half season of struggle and a slow (admittedly extremely slow) start. It's almost as if he's an a can't lose-lose situation.

Here's a question I have for people, if we have Richards, Carter, JVR, and Bob are we legit cup contenders right now? Obviously part of this question is taking out the guys we acquired for them.

I think if your answer is no, which mine is, wouldn't it make sense to take chances on guys with the potential of Voracek, Couturier, and the Schenn brothers, while freeing up some cap space in the process? I'm not a fan of all those moves obviously (Bob trade was certainly terrible). I'm just trying to defend the moves the GM has made that are generally attributed for their recent struggles.

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10-22-2013, 03:37 PM
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I have a hard time blaming Homer because on paper the team is good and its hard to say that they're overrated players who have inflated point totals because of the success in 2011-12. I'm not ready to throw the guy under the bus for a bad start because I think we've all seen some serious improvement since Laviolette was fired. While I'm not exactly a Homer apologist I think he has an unfair job because of the pressure exerted on him by Snider. It's clear that he wants to be patient with young players but at the same time, the fan base wants to fire him after a half season of struggle and a slow (admittedly extremely slow) start. It's almost as if he's an a can't lose-lose situation.

Here's a question I have for people, if we have Richards, Carter, JVR, and Bob are we legit cup contenders right now? Obviously part of this question is taking out the guys we acquired for them.

I think if your answer is no, which mine is, wouldn't it make sense to take chances on guys with the potential of Voracek, Couturier, and the Schenn brothers, while freeing up some cap space in the process? I'm not a fan of all those moves obviously (Bob trade was certainly terrible). I'm just trying to defend the moves the GM has made that are generally attributed for their recent struggles.
It's most definitely a no. They might not be as bad right now, but I feel comfortable saying a group of Schenn, Couturier, Voracek, Simmonds, and Cousins will look much better in a couple of years when Richie and Carter are on the downswing and still locked up to long term deals. That's kind of what people were expecting heading into 2011-1012, but the immediately success skewed a lot of perspectives.

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10-22-2013, 03:42 PM
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I have a hard time blaming Homer because on paper the team is good and its hard to say that they're overrated players who have inflated point totals because of the success in 2011-12. I'm not ready to throw the guy under the bus for a bad start because I think we've all seen some serious improvement since Laviolette was fired. While I'm not exactly a Homer apologist I think he has an unfair job because of the pressure exerted on him by Snider. It's clear that he wants to be patient with young players but at the same time, the fan base wants to fire him after a half season of struggle and a slow (admittedly extremely slow) start. It's almost as if he's an a can't lose-lose situation.

Here's a question I have for people, if we have Richards, Carter, JVR, and Bob are we legit cup contenders right now? Obviously part of this question is taking out the guys we acquired for them.

I think if your answer is no, which mine is, wouldn't it make sense to take chances on guys with the potential of Voracek, Couturier, and the Schenn brothers, while freeing up some cap space in the process? I'm not a fan of all those moves obviously (Bob trade was certainly terrible). I'm just trying to defend the moves the GM has made that are generally attributed for their recent struggles.
I think this is an impossible question to answer at this point because we're so far removed from those trades that we have no idea what our roster would look like at this point. Not moving Richards and/or Carter would have most likely led to the exit of some combination of Hartnell/Carle/Coburn, or maybe we don't even sign Bryz (which I doubt given what we know about Snider).

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10-22-2013, 03:45 PM
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I think this is an impossible question to answer at this point because we're so far removed from those trades that we have no idea what our roster would look like at this point. Not moving Richards and/or Carter would have most likely led to the exit of some combination of Hartnell/Carle/Coburn, or maybe we don't even sign Bryz (which I doubt given what we know about Snider).
Yeah, I understand it's a bit of difficult hypothetical to answer. It's just interesting considering the attitude some people have towards them "blowing up the team"

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10-22-2013, 03:51 PM
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False


It had an impact no doubt and made his job more difficult but it is still his job to address it properly. Tough task but he hasn't really even done an average job with mitigating the void at the very least...
Everything is a fallout from the Pronger injury for me. He made the whole team click and without him, we've needed to make a lot of moves to keep us as competitive as Snider wants every year.

He's kept us with a young, deep talented team for years. It's certainly not an unblemished record but he's done far better than other GMs would have.

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10-22-2013, 03:54 PM
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Everything is a fallout from the Pronger injury for me. He made the whole team click and without him, we've needed to make a lot of moves to keep us as competitive as Snider wants every year.

He's kept us with a young, deep talented team for years. It's certainly not an unblemished record but he's done far better than other GMs would have.
Pronger was starting to fall apart...his knees, wrists, back. The team still would have issues if he were playing..maybe not as volatile but I think we got him when he really only had 1-2 good years left in him...sadly.

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