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I'm going to defend Holmgren for a second.

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Old
10-22-2013, 04:01 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Pronger was starting to fall apart...his knees, wrists, back. The team still would have issues if he were playing..maybe not as volatile but I think we got him when he really only had 1-2 good years left in him...sadly.
With respect, that's conjecture. Either way, a half fit Pronger still beats down any of our D not called Kimmo.

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10-22-2013, 04:06 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
With respect, that's conjecture. Either way, a half fit Pronger still beats down any of our D not called Kimmo.
Oh I agree it is but I don't think he would have been able to repeat what he did in 2010..it was already starting to show in his play. A semi-healthy Pronger would have been more desirable and had an impact than no Pronger but at most the team would be mediocre as opposed to the wheels practically falling off and all the turmoil we have seen. We maybe would have more of an identity which right now I have no clue what it is...

Just don't want to overstate his impact or understate it either...

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10-22-2013, 04:12 PM
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Ed, Clarke & Holmgren Rule

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10-22-2013, 04:25 PM
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Yea I really don't get how this is on homer. We have a great line up that at least should be above .500. They are going though a transition with a new coach. Lavi should have been fired over the summer but I get the thinking that he deserves a training camp. Bryz was the best goalie out there. He has the creds. He just ended up sucking. It sounds like the blame needs to be on the players far more than GM. Calgary is doing just fine. Colorado just shutout the pens. The players are what it really comes down to. I mean really we traded bob and he became a vez goalie in a half a year. He wont repeat that again and we got 2 seconds for him that may actually be something. Like it or not streits contract is market value. Look at the rest of the league. You need a player of his type and caliber, either you trade or sign. I'm glad they signed. At the time that was fine for us. Not enough blame on the players and too much hindsight analysis.

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10-22-2013, 04:33 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
Not enough blame on the players and too much hindsight analysis.
Hard to look forward when you are moving backwards....

The roster is the GM's responsibility to assemble correctly (not to "overrate" your players). Not sure how one can't see that this team is ill-assembled. Meltzer yesterday made the same point and last year before the season even started I didn't understand the disconnect between how the D and offense was constituted to execute Lavi's system and sure enough it manifested itself in totally confused play which has continued into this season. The GM does not get a free pass in any of this..not sure how people continue to absolve Holmgren of blame. He is a large part of the problem and it will be proven to be so once he's gone which he's positioning himself to do but obviously with more diginity than the firing he really deserves...

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10-22-2013, 04:50 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Hard to look forward when you are moving backwards....

The roster is the GM's responsibility to assemble correctly (not to "overrate" your players). Not sure how one can't see that this team is ill-assembled. Meltzer yesterday made the same point and last year before the season even started I didn't understand the disconnect between how the D and offense was constituted to execute Lavi's system and sure enough it manifested itself in totally confused play which has continued into this season. The GM does not get a free pass in any of this..not sure how people continue to absolve Holmgren of blame. He is a large part of the problem and it will be proven to be so once he's gone which he's positioning himself to do but obviously with more diginity than the firing he really deserves...
Good line

I find it hard to assign much blame to the players; some should go to them but not much I think. Lavi had lost the team. The team was demoralized. They were confused and frustrated. They hinted at that in the media, so who knows what they said in post-season interviews. Yet Homer keeps Lavi around, and judging by the team's response in camp, preseason, and the first few games, that was an enormous mistake.

The GM kept a coach that had lost the team, and that's on the GM. And, I think, the bulk of the team's current issues are directly caused by that.

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10-22-2013, 04:53 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Hard to look forward when you are moving backwards....

The roster is the GM's responsibility to assemble correctly (not to "overrate" your players). Not sure how one can't see that this team is ill-assembled. Meltzer yesterday made the same point and last year before the season even started I didn't understand the disconnect between how the D and offense was constituted to execute Lavi's system and sure enough it manifested itself in totally confused play which has continued into this season. The GM does not get a free pass in any of this..not sure how people continue to absolve Holmgren of blame. He is a large part of the problem and it will be proven to be so once he's gone which he's positioning himself to do but obviously with more diginity than the firing he really deserves...
He is not above the blame, but he is not the main reason this team is 1-7. The flaws of how this team has been constructed cant even really be analyzed because the team has not even shown up for a game yet. Expecting 80 points out of G, 65 out of Vorecek, and 20-25 goals from Simmonds, Vinny, Read, and Hartnell is not "overrating" them. Those are reasonable expectations based on the players skill sets and past accomplishments. I dont know how people can act like scoring 2 goals or less a game is what this team is, and its Homers fault for not knowing that. The players are under performing...and that mostly falls on them and Lavi.

Homers future lies with this current group. If the organization feels another big set of moves is needed...Hexi will get the nod. If the team turns it around, Homer will stay.

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10-22-2013, 05:06 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Good line

I find it hard to assign much blame to the players
I find it hard not to.

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10-22-2013, 05:09 PM
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I find it hard not to.
Is it their fault Lavi remained hired for far too long?

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10-22-2013, 05:40 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Is it their fault Lavi remained hired for far too long?
Nah, it's their fault they're playing badly. You can blame the coach, and Lavi deserves part of it, but 11 goals in 8 games is unacceptable for this caliber of talent. The same powerplay that was 3rd last year is now 29th. Players aren't performing and that's on them most of all.

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10-22-2013, 05:49 PM
  #36
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Nah, it's their fault they're playing badly. You can blame the coach, and Lavi deserves part of it, but 11 goals in 8 games is unacceptable for this caliber of talent. The same powerplay that was 3rd last year is now 29th. Players aren't performing and that's on them most of all.
They came in broken and demoralized as a group, because they expected to be playing in a futile and broken system. They put up with it throughout last season, and were looking at potentially another season. That's enough to demoralize any group of individuals. Now that damage needs to be undone.

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10-22-2013, 07:08 PM
  #37
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The problem with the Flyers is they dont focus enough to develop their own players. Outside of Giroux you need a dominant core of your own.
I believe every great teams have their own dominant core. Chicago, Boston just to name a few.
Too much trading. A team of mercenaries will never win the cup.

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10-22-2013, 07:30 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Hard to look forward when you are moving backwards....

The roster is the GM's responsibility to assemble correctly (not to "overrate" your players). Not sure how one can't see that this team is ill-assembled. Meltzer yesterday made the same point and last year before the season even started I didn't understand the disconnect between how the D and offense was constituted to execute Lavi's system and sure enough it manifested itself in totally confused play which has continued into this season. The GM does not get a free pass in any of this..not sure how people continue to absolve Holmgren of blame. He is a large part of the problem and it will be proven to be so once he's gone which he's positioning himself to do but obviously with more diginity than the firing he really deserves...
I'm not saying to look forward. I'm saying don't judge homers choices based on current knowledge. He has his reasons for doing things when he did them. And for the most part they all check out. How is anyone overrating G as a 80 pt player? On the open market he gets a similar contract if not more, aka his value is appropriate. His play is not. None of their play is. The fact is there are some **** teams out there putting together wins and 3+ goal games. This is on the players. They need to play like they are supposed to. Expectations should not be lowered they should be there and demanded to be met. Holmgren as assembled a playoff team, at least a bubble team. Until this team plays at least at this level it is on the players and not Paul holmgren.

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10-22-2013, 07:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by kdyehs View Post
The problem with the Flyers is they dont focus enough to develop their own players. Outside of Giroux you need a dominant core of your own.
I believe every great teams have their own dominant core. Chicago, Boston just to name a few.
Too much trading. A team of mercenaries will never win the cup.
AGREE

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10-22-2013, 07:43 PM
  #40
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I think this is an impossible question to answer at this point because we're so far removed from those trades that we have no idea what our roster would look like at this point. Not moving Richards and/or Carter would have most likely led to the exit of some combination of Hartnell/Carle/Coburn, or maybe we don't even sign Bryz (which I doubt given what we know about Snider).

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10-22-2013, 07:58 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
I'm not saying to look forward. I'm saying don't judge homers choices based on current knowledge. He has his reasons for doing things when he did them. And for the most part they all check out. How is anyone overrating G as a 80 pt player? On the open market he gets a similar contract if not more, aka his value is appropriate. His play is not. None of their play is. The fact is there are some **** teams out there putting together wins and 3+ goal games. This is on the players. They need to play like they are supposed to. Expectations should not be lowered they should be there and demanded to be met. Holmgren as assembled a playoff team, at least a bubble team. Until this team plays at least at this level it is on the players and not Paul holmgren.
oh no doubt the players right now bear a lot of responsibility. There is no excuse for how putrid they have been. My contention in all of this is that I'm not so sure the GM has created the right environment or conditions for them to succeed as well. He asks the coach last season to change his system because they had to justify keeping Bryz around and then goes out and pretty much imposes it on him by assembling a D corps that is stay at home, doesn't mesh with the offense and then to top it off lets one of the more mobile defensemen walk onto the open market. Let's not even talk about the fact they didn't do their homework on Bryz in the first place who was not the kind of goalie for Lavi's system. They then go on to hold onto the coach for longer than he should have just like Stevens before him when as Beef notes the players were already starting to mutiny. I mean if you didn't like the coach's system why didn't you just fire him and then why did you hold onto to him for an additional camp? To me it was purely political b/c Holmgren knew he beared a lot of responsibility too and in fact when a reporter asked Holmgren if he did enough to support the coach with the right personnel he said it was "a fair question." Yeah I guess so...

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10-22-2013, 08:09 PM
  #42
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On sportsnet insider segment they said a change in gm won't happen in season most likely. So anyone wanting him fired is probably not going to get their wish

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10-22-2013, 08:12 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
They came in broken and demoralized as a group, because they expected to be playing in a futile and broken system. They put up with it throughout last season, and were looking at potentially another season. That's enough to demoralize any group of individuals. Now that damage needs to be undone.
Your speaking of these players as if they are in middle school going into war. They are grown men capable of earning million dollar paychecks. I don't care who is coaching you should be able to score more than 2 a game and win more than 1 in 8.

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10-22-2013, 08:28 PM
  #44
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I can't find anything in his post that would draw such a response.

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10-22-2013, 08:29 PM
  #45
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Your speaking of these players as if they are in middle school going into war. They are grown men capable of earning million dollar paychecks. I don't care who is coaching you should be able to score more than 2 a game and win more than 1 in 8.
Even grown men can get frustrated and demoralized. Anyone who has had a bad boss knows this, and Lavi had turned into a bad boss. It's really difficult to work your ass off at something which has repeatedly failed.

The problem is, in a sport if you can't motivate yourself to do what your coach is asking, and it affects conditioning, you aren't going to see a quick turnaround. Especially since the new coach will have a feeling out phase while he does what he wants.

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10-22-2013, 08:37 PM
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if the flyers went into the post season interviews and really told Homer that they didn't like the way Lavi was coaching, didn't like the direction the team was going and had enough support from most of the players on the team, I can't see Homer keeping him around. If he saw the players didn't have faith in the coach, I'm sure he would realize that Lavi had lost the team and would have made a change.

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10-22-2013, 08:51 PM
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Pronger was starting to fall apart...his knees, wrists, back. The team still would have issues if he were playing..maybe not as volatile but I think we got him when he really only had 1-2 good years left in him...sadly.
A slow dman who was already getting slower. Some people here act like he was getting younger every year instead of older. We only need to look at what's happening to Kimmo to see what would be happening to Pronger, who is older and has way more mileage on his body.

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10-22-2013, 08:55 PM
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I can't find anything in his post that would draw such a response.
Not enough goons for him.

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10-22-2013, 09:29 PM
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I have a hard time blaming Homer because on paper the team is good and its hard to say that they're overrated players who have inflated point totals because of the success in 2011-12. I'm not ready to throw the guy under the bus for a bad start because I think we've all seen some serious improvement since Laviolette was fired. While I'm not exactly a Homer apologist I think he has an unfair job because of the pressure exerted on him by Snider. It's clear that he wants to be patient with young players but at the same time, the fan base wants to fire him after a half season of struggle and a slow (admittedly extremely slow) start. It's almost as if he's an a can't lose-lose situation.

Here's a question I have for people, if we have Richards, Carter, JVR, and Bob are we legit cup contenders right now? Obviously part of this question is taking out the guys we acquired for them.

I think if your answer is no, which mine is, wouldn't it make sense to take chances on guys with the potential of Voracek, Couturier, and the Schenn brothers, while freeing up some cap space in the process? I'm not a fan of all those moves obviously (Bob trade was certainly terrible). I'm just trying to defend the moves the GM has made that are generally attributed for their recent struggles.
Can't quite answer the question although I think a mature Giroux with your named foursome (minus the guys acquired for them) would have made this team and the 2011-12-13 teams just as legitimate cup contenders as they are now. What I can answer though is Richards and Carter have already hoisted the cup, they and perhaps JVR are playing on more legitimate cup contenders than the current edition of the Flyers and Bobrovsky's success speaks for itself. And we keep speaking of the potential of the guys acquired, perhaps hoping above all, that the trades work out but.....

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10-22-2013, 09:45 PM
  #50
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False


It had an impact no doubt and made his job more difficult but it is still his job to address it properly. Tough task but he hasn't really even done an average job with mitigating the void at the very least...
It's not like Holmgren hasn't tried to get a #1 d-man since Pronger got hurt. He tried for Suter and Weber. He tried to get an established # 1 goalie...turned into a nutcase. Philly is one of 6 teams to make the SCF in the last 4 years. He helped build that team and gets no credit for it. He did the hard thing and traded his captain and Carter....got great young returns for them.

Is he perfect? Absolutely not. But at least with him there, you know he is not content with being bad. We ALL expected them to be better than they are right now. He can't help our proven players to score.

One big fault was to not get a PMD when trading Carter and Richards. If he had done so, we very well could have had Voyonov and JVR instead of Schenn x2


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