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The Montreal Canadiens indirectly stood in the way of the 67 expansion.

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10-22-2013, 04:19 AM
  #26
Mats86
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Each club had same territorial rights...it was only 50 miles or something like that. Leafs were neck and neck with Habs for Cup wins until the Harold Ballard era. When they started using their stars like Mahovlich bad and foolishly trading away young players. Habs when opposite direction at expansion to trade their veterans for high picks. Opposite of the rest of league philosophy. This was Sam Pollock's doing but doesn't put black mark on Habs. Smarts chalk that one up to

Anybody who grew up in Quebec during this era would know there wasn't much else in the province but hockey....except maybe the catholic church. While places like New York or Boston hockey was the fourth sport. If that in some cities. Naturally the interest and output of young players would be greater in Montreal.

To prove the territorial thing wasn't what did it Montreal wasn't a dominant club until Tommy Gorman. Who started it after the war. Habs spend a lot of money signing c form and junior club sponsorship. Other clubs had this option if they chose. With the bigger OHL or WHL and American college system. Habs even had more sponsorship in the WHL than any other club for awhile. Peteborough Petes be another example. A long time Habs sponsored team in Leafs backyard. Any of the original six could done this. Arguably one of their core clubs, Habs got a few good players there Mickey Redmond who traded for Frank Mahovlich, Danny Grant won Rookie of the Year. Scotty Bowman, Roger Neilson started their career. Even lead to Pollock drafting Bob Gainey. Habs helped other NHL clubs if anything, as they developed a lot of players they lost in draft for nil, such as Dick Redmond, Garry Monahan, Dunc Wilson even Billy Harris. They had the foresight and spend big money on player development. Naturally they should reap the rewards. Pollock had a vast and complex farm system at one time.

Red Wings had foresight in drafting Russians before communists fell and circumventing the cap with all those long front loaded contracts. Would that discredit their 3 cups?


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10-22-2013, 04:25 AM
  #27
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Obviously the 23 or if it is 24 cups sometimes comes over like when mostly the same people claims Teemu Selanne had his best season as a rookie. But i think back in the days, and i'm definetely not mostly talking about the Maple Leafs either but the other four Original-6 teams, who where even worse off than the Leafs, that the fans of those teams just cherished the few cups they got that much more. Cant be all fun being a Canadien or Maple Leaf fan that feels entitelment to the cup, only to go on some five year plus hiatus slump that happened from time to time.
What i think we all should be aware of, and most are, concerning the Canadiens is that back in those days, french canadians actually felt they had it worse off, and being treated bad, by the english majority. The Canadiens was perhaps the only thing they had to get even on the english, and so if their regional government did things to make it easier on the club it perhaps should not come as much of a surprise. The club also probably did not feel at all bad about winning much. After all, this is not today, with all kinds of modern advantages of "fair play" in government operations and equality that we ourselves feel entitled to. That's why i loved that monumental series Hockey-A peoples History, where they so nicely put into color picture the great strides your ancestors had to take to make such a cold and unexplored wilderness into what you have to today. As a matter of fact, many of those people came from my own Sweden and also here, their siblings or cousins or whoever that stayed behind bled and died to make it better for their own children, who also where our ancestors. North america is something else though, the level of sacrifices people at that point in time generally had to do.


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10-22-2013, 06:12 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
the Cups the Habs won in the 70's even after the 1st fair draft in 69 were still due to players they gained before 69 and due to players they gained prior to 69 that they traded to get picks to get guys like Lafleur etc.

but they still have 86 and 93 so good on them for those 2 and any prior to 55.
I expect the Habs to have a presser some time soon due to your findings and apologize to the hockey world for having superior management with Selke and Pollack and thereby turn in their Stanley Cup banners.

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10-22-2013, 07:28 AM
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Why is having a good organisation: a Bad Thing?

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10-22-2013, 07:47 AM
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Perhaps my memory fails on this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Bruins essentially acquire, via sponsorship, the entire Parry Sound minor hockey association as part of their Bobby Orr strategy? IIRC, this took place before Orr was old enough to sign a C-card.

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10-22-2013, 11:14 AM
  #31
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Perhaps my memory fails on this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Bruins essentially acquire, via sponsorship, the entire Parry Sound minor hockey association as part of their Bobby Orr strategy? IIRC, this took place before Orr was old enough to sign a C-card.
Sorta kinda. They actually sponsored his team specifically in 1961/62. Wren Blair, then Head Scout for the Bruins took serious notice of Orr at a Tournament in Gananoque' Ontario that spring, also making note were the Habs, Leafs & Wings though as he young, small & slight, the latter 3 figuring theyd just let it go, see how he developed. Blair however was convinced he was going to be beyond special & convinced the Bruins to sponsor his Parry Sound team, dropping $1000 on them (app $7600 in 2013).

Contemporaneously, Blair had also convinced the Bruins to invest (51%) in the new Oshawa Jr club that was set to start play the next year despite already owning the Niagara Falls Flyers. At 14 Orr attended the Flyers Training Camp and when it came to sign or return to Parry Sound, his parents stepped in wanting him to carry on with his schooling so Blair in order to get them to sign a C-Form on Bobbys behalf and secure his rights offered them $10,000 (app $75,000 in 2013), a new car and that the Bruins would pay to have their house stucco'd with Bobby playing for the newly minted Oshawa Generals, skipping practices, commuting for games from Parry Sound that first year.

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10-22-2013, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
I expect the Habs to have a presser some time soon due to your findings and apologize to the hockey world for having superior management with Selke and Pollack and thereby turn in their Stanley Cup banners.
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Originally Posted by saskganesh View Post
Why is having a good organisation: a Bad Thing?
Indeed. Im a lifelong Leafs guy and I must say I find any inference or intimation that the Habs Stanley Cups from 1955 through 1979 are somehow tarnished or cheapened due to the Machiavellian wanderings of Selke, Pollock & the Molsons. Specious theory, suggestion. Toronto did exactly the same thing, New York, Boston, Chicago & Detroit on smaller scale's, different levels & parameters and most of it based on budgets. As about 99.8% of the talent came from Canada, Toronto & Montreal had a huge advantage. As I said earlier, real simple. Not Rocket Science. The US based teams just didnt spend as (Orr the exception) much, spend as much time in developing players, employing vast armys of Scouts the way the Leafs & Habs did.

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10-22-2013, 02:23 PM
  #33
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Here's a link for a perspective on the French Canadian rule:

http://ultimatehockeynetwork.com/the...-or-fiction-2/

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The French Canadian rule: Read about it, go to bed smarter.

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10-22-2013, 02:54 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
I expect the Habs to have a presser some time soon due to your findings and apologize to the hockey world for having superior management with Selke and Pollack and thereby turn in their Stanley Cup banners.
That would make me a lil better but it would be even cooler if they gave them to the Leafs just cuz the Leafs had to put up with Ballard. Kind of like a pain and suffering compensation lol

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Indeed. Im a lifelong Leafs guy and I must say I find any inference or intimation that the Habs Stanley Cups from 1955 through 1979 are somehow tarnished or cheapened due to the Machiavellian wanderings of Selke, Pollock & the Molsons. Specious theory, suggestion. Toronto did exactly the same thing, New York, Boston, Chicago & Detroit on smaller scale's, different levels & parameters and most of it based on budgets. As about 99.8% of the talent came from Canada, Toronto & Montreal had a huge advantage. As I said earlier, real simple. Not Rocket Science. The US based teams just didnt spend as (Orr the exception) much, spend as much time in developing players, employing vast armys of Scouts the way the Leafs & Habs did.
At the end of the Day the Habs still won the games on the ice and it is what it was. Yes the Leafs did have a similar system in place but to a significantly lesser extent than the Habs had. On top of that Hockey enrollment was way higher per capita in the areas that the Habs farm system covered than what the Leafs farm system covered. Hockey being 2nd only to the Catholic religion in many parts of Que almost ensured a high hockey enrollment and by proxy a larger selection of talent for the Habs. Looking at the political workings of the NHL it is sad how many French Canadiens had a harder time playing on other teams than the Habs so it makes sense that they would choose the Habs 1st. If only a true fair draft was set up after WW2 I think the NHL would have been better for French Canadiens and even Europeans in the post WW2 era.

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10-23-2013, 04:59 AM
  #35
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That would make me a lil better but it would be even cooler if they gave them to the Leafs just cuz the Leafs had to put up with Ballard. Kind of like a pain and suffering compensation lol



At the end of the Day the Habs still won the games on the ice and it is what it was. Yes the Leafs did have a similar system in place but to a significantly lesser extent than the Habs had. On top of that Hockey enrollment was way higher per capita in the areas that the Habs farm system covered than what the Leafs farm system covered. Hockey being 2nd only to the Catholic religion in many parts of Que almost ensured a high hockey enrollment and by proxy a larger selection of talent for the Habs. Looking at the political workings of the NHL it is sad how many French Canadiens had a harder time playing on other teams than the Habs so it makes sense that they would choose the Habs 1st. If only a true fair draft was set up after WW2 I think the NHL would have been better for French Canadiens and even Europeans in the post WW2 era.

Habs spent big money on farm system. That option was open to all clubs not just the Habs. Tommy Gorman bought in Frank Selke after the war and he started the extensive farm system we call it today. That is where it all started, the idea came from. Before that the Leafs, Wings and Habs were neck and neck for most cups. So, it shows the 50 territorial rights never gave them an advantage.

When I was a kid Habs sent Kenny Reardon out west to start Regina Pats, Scotty Bowman to Peteroborough to run the Petes, Clause Ruel ran the Junior Canadiens. We use to call them feeder teams back then. Habs were deep into player development.

The other clubs wouldn't spend on player development. Took a lot of money and hockey wasn't a major sport in most USA cities back in the '50s and '60s. Where as in Quebec we ate, slept and breathe hockey. It was the only thing we had. Long cold winters, Quebec then was a poverty province.

The Adams were notoriously cheap in Boston. Until his son Weston took over the club, around the mid-60s and they started to spend in sponsorhip. Netted them the likes of Bobby Orr, Wayne Cashman, Ed Westfall and bunch of other players.

The Black Hawks were in bad shape during the '50s, Chicago wasn't a hockey town and the league had to bail them out. Like most USA clubs they never had no money. At the time hockey wasn't a major sport in the USA. Was no money in it to spend extra on sponsorship like the Habs had.

The Rangers were a mickey mouse organization when Watson ran the team. They changed when Cat Francis got control and model his farm system after Montreal's. Netted them the Ratelles, Gilberts, etc...

Except for the Maple Leafs who did spend big in sponsorship until the Harold Ballard era. When they cut junior spending, started to trade away young players. Punch Imlach wanted all veterans. That was fine in the '60s but when age got to them there was no young guys coming along. The Gary Ungers, Pete Stemkowskis, Jim Pappins, Eddie Shacks, or Carl Brewers.

Quebec was down upon by rest of Canada. Not as bad as the blacks in South USA, but world wasn't as liberal as it is today. Quebec was a different culture trapped in foreign country. Especially after the war and they refused to go to war and Ottawa started conscription. Now after a couple of generation have past and the world has changed that is not the case anymore. Mostly anyway.


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10-23-2013, 05:41 AM
  #36
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the Cups the Habs won in the 70's even after the 1st fair draft in 69 were still due to players they gained before 69 and due to players they gained prior to 69 that they traded to get picks to get guys like Lafleur etc.

but they still have 86 and 93 so good on them for those 2 and any prior to 55.
1st draft in '69? Are you really serious?

It was in '63 http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1963a.html


And EVERY TEAM in that era bought entire teams. But it was a Canadiens' GM (who BTW was let go by the Leafs....BTW, Thanks) who instituted this practice of developmental leagues. Because of Selke, Montreal began to dominate with Francophone AND Anglophone players....because they played the best ones. Shocking I know



And if they stood indirectly in the way of '67 expansion, then explain how it happened.

It happened to get in front of another group who were trying to organize a new league to compete against the NHL. That group took a hit but some of that same group were still able to start a league, maybe you heard of it...the WHA?



This crap is getting old. Montreal won due to forward thinking and excellent management along with develloping their own coaching staffs and players better than any other team.

Deal with it.

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10-23-2013, 09:07 AM
  #37
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Yeah, I hate the Habs, but if they didn't really do anything illegal, then who cares.

A cup is a cup at the end of the day. The only thing that is boring and annoying are when Habs fans bring up how many total Cups they've won...nobody cares about totals, they only care about the last one.

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10-23-2013, 10:05 AM
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A cup is a cup at the end of the day. The only thing that is boring and annoying are when Habs fans bring up how many total Cups they've won...nobody cares about totals, they only care about the last one.
Nja, fans of a particular team certainly cares about THEIR teams last one, and even all the ones the team has won during the particular fans fandom. The Habs are now obviously in the unfortunate situation that a great share of their fans have not experienced their team winning. Surely a teams history is also of importance, but i would say that experiencing a championship is more important for most of the fans. At the same time, Montreal is slowly approaching the same kind of slump that they have mobbed Maple Leaf fans with for so many years, so perhaps it's only natural they more and more start clinging to their past.

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10-23-2013, 10:37 AM
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Gordie Howe could have been offered by anyone. Think of that. The Rangers invited him to camp as a teenager, but declined. The Red Wings then picked up him, but the story is that he wasn't properly listed as Wing's property when he played in Omaha.

Frank Selke Jr, who was with the Leafs at the time, gentlemanly advised his Red Wing counterpart of that minor oversight...

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10-23-2013, 02:16 PM
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1st draft in '69? Are you really serious? ... It was in '63 http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1963a.html

And EVERY TEAM in that era bought entire teams. But it was a Canadiens' GM (who BTW was let go by the Leafs....BTW, Thanks) who instituted this practice of developmental leagues. Because of Selke, Montreal began to dominate with Francophone AND Anglophone players....because they played the best ones. Shocking I know

And if they stood indirectly in the way of '67 expansion, then explain how it happened.

It happened to get in front of another group who were trying to organize a new league to compete against the NHL. That group took a hit but some of that same group were still able to start a league, maybe you heard of it...the WHA?

This crap is getting old. Montreal won due to forward thinking and excellent management along with develloping their own coaching staffs and players better than any other team.... Deal with it.
.... yep, all good points. On the bolded, they and Toronto did in fact stand in the way of Vancouver receiving an Expansion Franchise in 1967; again in 1976'ish through 78/79 over the WHA Amalgamation as your likely aware. Had everything to do with previous enmities between Ballard/Smythe & the City of Vancouver & not wanting to share broadcasting revenues in addition to Molsons' interests as a league sponsor & the opening of a window on the westcoast that Labatts would likely come in through. Nothing to do with protecting player rights in the Habs case in Quebec or elsewhere.... Indeed when the Seals encountered difficulties a Labatts backed offer to move the team to Vancouver was also rejected circa 68 or so. With WHA Amalgamation, again, sponsorship concerns with Molsons (their products boycotted when it became known they were standing in the way of Canadian based clubs entries into the NHL) and not wanting to share broadcasting rev's. Essentially all about the $$$.

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10-23-2013, 03:40 PM
  #41
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Habs spent big money on farm system. That option was open to all clubs not just the Habs. Tommy Gorman bought in Frank Selke after the war and he started the extensive farm system we call it today. That is where it all started, the idea came from. Before that the Leafs, Wings and Habs were neck and neck for most cups. So, it shows the 50 territorial rights never gave them an advantage.

When I was a kid Habs sent Kenny Reardon out west to start Regina Pats, Scotty Bowman to Peteroborough to run the Petes, Clause Ruel ran the Junior Canadiens. We use to call them feeder teams back then. Habs were deep into player development.

The other clubs wouldn't spend on player development. Took a lot of money and hockey wasn't a major sport in most USA cities back in the '50s and '60s. Where as in Quebec we ate, slept and breathe hockey. It was the only thing we had. Long cold winters, Quebec then was a poverty province.

The Adams were notoriously cheap in Boston. Until his son Weston took over the club, around the mid-60s and they started to spend in sponsorhip. Netted them the likes of Bobby Orr, Wayne Cashman, Ed Westfall and bunch of other players.

The Black Hawks were in bad shape during the '50s, Chicago wasn't a hockey town and the league had to bail them out. Like most USA clubs they never had no money. At the time hockey wasn't a major sport in the USA. Was no money in it to spend extra on sponsorship like the Habs had.

The Rangers were a mickey mouse organization when Watson ran the team. They changed when Cat Francis got control and model his farm system after Montreal's. Netted them the Ratelles, Gilberts, etc...

Except for the Maple Leafs who did spend big in sponsorship until the Harold Ballard era. When they cut junior spending, started to trade away young players. Punch Imlach wanted all veterans. That was fine in the '60s but when age got to them there was no young guys coming along. The Gary Ungers, Pete Stemkowskis, Jim Pappins, Eddie Shacks, or Carl Brewers.

Quebec was down upon by rest of Canada. Not as bad as the blacks in South USA, but world wasn't as liberal as it is today. Quebec was a different culture trapped in foreign country. Especially after the war and they refused to go to war and Ottawa started conscription. Now after a couple of generation have past and the world has changed that is not the case anymore. Mostly anyway.
As you know nothing the Habs did was illegal or cheating. Unfair maybe. Also you know how important hockey was/is to the French in Que, even more so after the War do to the issues you mentioned. Now here is where it gets shady IMO (mentioned sources in OP) due to the political situation it was seen as imperative for the Habs to remain dominant and the provincial government of Que kicked in tons of money to help the Habs implement and maintain their farm system. While the Leafs did see some municipal help in some areas nothing to the extent that the Habs saw from their Province. For instance Que paid for many of the arenas and staffing.
So that is 1 advantage the Habs had.
2nd is obvious-most of the best players were French and most French players wanted to play on the Habs.
3rd. Sure the other teams could have set up a similarly massive farm system but at the time the Habs had all ready begun to farm the top areas and the pie just wasn't big enough for the other teams to compete.
I guess that is my main grievance. If the Habs would have taken a smaller piece of the pie I would have no issues.

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1st draft in '69? Are you really serious?

It was in '63 http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1963a.html



And EVERY TEAM in that era bought entire teams. But it was a Canadiens' GM (who BTW was let go by the Leafs....BTW, Thanks) who instituted this practice of developmental leagues. Because of Selke, Montreal began to dominate with Francophone AND Anglophone players....because they played the best ones. Shocking I know



And if they stood indirectly in the way of '67 expansion, then explain how it happened.

It happened to get in front of another group who were trying to organize a new league to compete against the NHL. That group took a hit but some of that same group were still able to start a league, maybe you heard of it...the WHA?



This crap is getting old. Montreal won due to forward thinking and excellent management along with develloping their own coaching staffs and players better than any other team.

Deal with it.
Yes there was a draft in 63 but it wasn't a true open draft till 69. Go look at the players drafted from 63-68 pretty much all no name non French players cuz the Habs allready had the rights to any of significance. Then in 69 teams could no longer essentially pre own players so the draft became truly open, go look at the magical change in 69,,wadda ya know top French players in the draft.

Now as to the Habs holding up expansion, With the way the Farm systems were it offered little to no chance for the expansion team to develop top players. So many of the new owners demanded change and the Habs vehemently opposed this because they knew they would loose their pipeline. So we can thank expansion for opening up all players to all teams.

If only the Leafs had provincial $$ to help them when Selkie mentioned it to them. I guess the political climate and the perceived need for the Habs to dominate the perceived English NHL is what put the Quebec $$$ behind the Habs farm system.

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10-23-2013, 06:38 PM
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Now here is where it gets shady IMO.... I guess the political climate and the perceived need for the Habs to dominate the perceived English NHL is what put the Quebec $$$ behind the Habs farm system.
Ok, and where are you getting this information from (because this goes beyond your linked sources in that 1st post), that the Province of Quebec bestowed all kinds of financial largesse on the building & staffing of arenas' throughout Quebec? Are you aware that Toronto & Ontario, throughout Western Canada that post WW1 & then again post WW2 "Memorial Arena" projects were undertaken en mass while in the City of Montreal & elsewhere in Quebec kids were still relegated to playing outdoors in less than optimal conditions and with shortened seasons (usually starting in mid to late December & over by early to mid-March)? Then there were the Centennial Arenas. The Federal Government offering funds to be matched by whatever community to build whatever theyd like (and a lot opting for indoor rinks) to honor Canadas' 1st 100yrs. Look, I grew up in Toronto in the late 50's & 60's and I can tell you with absolute certainty that we had it better than the kids in Montreal with respect to access to indoor facilities and to summer hockey camps starting in the early 60's be it in the Kawarthas or Sundridge, wherever.

Next up you make the leap that as a result of this imagined largesse that francophone or Quebec based kids were better players, and nothing could be further from the truth. The then OHA junior system was in fact and in my opinion & many many others actually superior to the QHL, Montreal establishing Jr Clubs to play in the OHA with Ottawa-Hull & later in Peterborough.... as for the creation of the Universal Draft in 1963 & the dismantling of the Sponsorship Program, that was done for a number of reasons, not the least of which had to do with issues of anti-trust & restrictive trade practices as they related to the Labor Codes in the US & Canada. The C-Form an odious document that for all intensive purposes gave the clubs overarching control of a players career & fate into perpetuity, indentured servitude. The league promised to abolish the sponsorship model in order to avoid serious legal jeopardy in multiple jurisdictions. However, all of the teams, not just Montreal were still operating under the C-Form premise as late as the early 70's and so yes, that 69 Draft the first "real" one since its creation in 63.

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10-23-2013, 06:55 PM
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As you know nothing the Habs did was illegal or cheating. Unfair maybe. Also you know how important hockey was/is to the French in Que, even more so after the W...
So then it was fair since it was legal?

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10-23-2013, 08:02 PM
  #44
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Not many know that in order for the NHL to expand in 67 the NHL had to end the monopoly on the pipeline to top French jr talent the Habs had.
The prospective and established owners of the incoming teams saw how unfair the access was to top French jr age talent and demanded change.

If it was up to the Habs the NHL would still be 6 teams so they didn't have to give up owning most of the top end French jr talent pipeline teams and league(s).

source below.
Cruise, David and Griffiths, Alison (1991). Net Worth: Exploding The Myths of Pro Hockey. Stoddart Publishing

A large group of the Cups that the Habs won were due to them owning jr teams/leagues in the prime hockey enrollment areas. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE TERRITORIAL RULE. It would be like the Leafs owning the OMHA and the GTHL and being able to snag any player they wanted prior to the draft.

I wish people would stop saying that the territorial rule is the reason the Habs had such an advantage, it wasn't and it only applied to any player who didn't all ready have a c-form. Back then most top players had a c-form by the age of 14-16 some as young as 12. It was 1st and foremost that most of the top talent back then was French and most French players wanted to play for the Habs. The 2nd reason was that the Habs were 1st to set up jr teams and leagues in areas that had high rates of hockey enrollment. Back then if a player played on/in a team/league that was owned by the Habs then the Habs owned the player as well. By the time the other teams got wind of what the Habs were doing it was too late to be competitive as far as jr development because the Habs had allready laid claim to the best areas. What really blows me away is that the NHL actually allowed that to happen.

most info from http://www.amazon.com/Behind-Cheerin.../dp/B0006CV4IY <<great read a lot of info about how he implemented his jr talent monopoly. only up to 62 tho

Look at total # of C-forms each NHL team signed and the Habs had more than any other NHL team had combined, not just the other 5 but any other NHL team that existed prior to the 67 expansion. Ya see other teams would scout individuals but the Habs would basically sign everything they could and keep the best. By doing that they made thousands of NHL caliber players unavailable to the other teams. Its sad really.

source http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=1476

As an additional point go look at the NHL draft page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_Entry_Draft and look at the drafts up till 69. You will notice that pretty much all the top guys are from Ontario teams/leagues then look in 69 once the Habs stranglehold is broken at how many Que players are now in the top part of the draft.

Also the political climate in Que was such that the Habs were a beacon to the French and it was of upmost importance to the province that the Habs remained dominant. Believe it or not the province of Que actually helped the Montreal Canadians pay to implement their jr farm teams.
source
http://proicehockey.about.com/od/hoc.../canadiens.htm
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Ok, and where are you getting this information from (because this goes beyond your linked sources in that 1st post), that the Province of Quebec bestowed all kinds of financial largesse on the building & staffing of arenas' throughout Quebec? Are you aware that Toronto & Ontario, throughout Western Canada that post WW1 & then again post WW2 "Memorial Arena" projects were undertaken en mass while in the City of Montreal & elsewhere in Quebec kids were still relegated to playing outdoors in less than optimal conditions and with shortened seasons (usually starting in mid to late December & over by early to mid-March)? Then there were the Centennial Arenas. The Federal Government offering funds to be matched by whatever community to build whatever theyd like (and a lot opting for indoor rinks) to honor Canadas' 1st 100yrs. Look, I grew up in Toronto in the late 50's & 60's and I can tell you with absolute certainty that we had it better than the kids in Montreal with respect to access to indoor facilities and to summer hockey camps starting in the early 60's be it in the Kawarthas or Sundridge, wherever.

Next up you make the leap that as a result of this imagined largesse that francophone or Quebec based kids were better players, and nothing could be further from the truth. The then OHA junior system was in fact and in my opinion & many many others actually superior to the QHL, Montreal establishing Jr Clubs to play in the OHA with Ottawa-Hull & later in Peterborough.... as for the creation of the Universal Draft in 1963 & the dismantling of the Sponsorship Program, that was done for a number of reasons, not the least of which had to do with issues of anti-trust & restrictive trade practices as they related to the Labor Codes in the US & Canada. The C-Form an odious document that for all intensive purposes gave the clubs overarching control of a players career & fate into perpetuity, indentured servitude. The league promised to abolish the sponsorship model in order to avoid serious legal jeopardy in multiple jurisdictions. However, all of the teams, not just Montreal were still operating under the C-Form premise as late as the early 70's and so yes, that 69 Draft the first "real" one since its creation in 63.
IIRC in the book Behind the Cheering is where it mentions that Hab owned jr teams and facility's received funding from the province of Que even if they were out side of the province. And it was for the exact reasons you mentioned I believe it was brought up. People were not happy with the state of most of the amateur rinks in Que and the province was helping teams/rinks that didn't need the help as much.

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10-23-2013, 08:16 PM
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Ok, and where are you getting this information from (because this goes beyond your linked sources in that 1st post), that the Province of Quebec bestowed all kinds of financial largesse on the building & staffing of arenas' throughout Quebec? Are you aware that Toronto & Ontario, throughout Western Canada that post WW1 & then again post WW2 "Memorial Arena" projects were undertaken en mass while in the City of Montreal & elsewhere in Quebec kids were still relegated to playing outdoors in less than optimal conditions and with shortened seasons (usually starting in mid to late December & over by early to mid-March)? Then there were the Centennial Arenas. The Federal Government offering funds to be matched by whatever community to build whatever theyd like (and a lot opting for indoor rinks) to honor Canadas' 1st 100yrs. Look, I grew up in Toronto in the late 50's & 60's and I can tell you with absolute certainty that we had it better than the kids in Montreal with respect to access to indoor facilities and to summer hockey camps starting in the early 60's be it in the Kawarthas or Sundridge, wherever.
Precisely. The idea that the government of Quebec was supporting the Habs' farm system by building arenas in small towns throughout the province is ridiculous. Just about EVERY arena EVERYWHERE throughout Canada was built with government money. Quebec wasn't doling out more than the rest.

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10-23-2013, 09:13 PM
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IIRC in the book Behind the Cheering is where it mentions that Hab owned jr teams and facility's received funding from the province of Que even if they were out side of the province. And it was for the exact reasons you mentioned I believe it was brought up. People were not happy with the state of most of the amateur rinks in Que and the province was helping teams/rinks that didn't need the help as much.
First paragraph there I think your mistaken. The municipalities & towns would have been the proponents in wanting to better their communities, move into the 20th century, improve the quality of life for their citizens in building indoor arenas. The Province of Quebec, just like New Brunswick, Ontario, Manitoba & elsewhere may have had funds available for such programs, a sort of co-op dealeo which is really quite the norm everywhere & hardly unique to Quebec.

Im really not sure where your coming from on this theory that the Molsons, Selke & Pollock had some sort of inside track & ease of access to millions in funneling public money to the building of arenas in order to specifically house their prospects, a factory or production line to produce more of same. Im sorry but thats just not the case at all. You have absolutely zero proof of such and the facts belie such a work of fiction. Where outside of PQ did the Province of Quebec in conjunction with the Montreal Canadiens ever spend money on infrastructure including arenas?... the answer is nowhere.

In Montreal, Canada's leading city at the time were discussing here (50's & 60's) the vast majority of elite amateur players were still playing outdoors while in Toronto arenas' were going up like corn stalks in August from Scarborough through North York to Etobicoke, into Simcoe County & elsewhere; all throughout the Golden Horseshoe. The Leafs had no hand in any of that and nor did the Habs in Montreal nor within the province outside of that city be it Sherbrooke, Shawinigan, Lachine or wherever else. These were/are community rinks, run by the muni's. If anything, its a wonder Quebec & specifically Montreal did manage to produce as many good players as they did what with the vast majority of their games well into the 60's & early 70's at the amateur levels still reliant upon climate as they were playing outdoors with short seasons.

The Montreal Canadiens were successful, became the Dynasty they did as a result of Conn Smythes pique' with his 2nd in Command while off at War when Selke acquired Teeder Kennedy (ironically from Montreal), a trade Smythe railed against and used as an excuse to dump Frank Sr. upon his return from overseas. Selke had been extremely successful running the Leafs, had proven himself to be a lot smarter than Smythe, and that just wasnt going to do do. No Sir. Toronto's loss was Montreals gain. Pretty simple straightforward story really. The Leafs won their Cups through the 60's on the fumes of Selke which he had left behind over a decade earlier in building Torontos' development & farm system. No conspiracy theories are required to understand any of it. Reality, the truth is always far more interesting. The Dipsomaniac son Stafford Smythe & Criminally Inclined Harold Ballard then assumed the mantle of ownership in the late 50's & thats really when the proverbial **** hit the fan. They sold everything right through the 60's. Decimated the organization, all of Selke's work. All gone. Poof... but that in and of itself a long story.


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10-24-2013, 08:14 AM
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Job Creation Plus

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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
IIRC in the book Behind the Cheering is where it mentions that Hab owned jr teams and facility's received funding from the province of Que even if they were out side of the province. And it was for the exact reasons you mentioned I believe it was brought up. People were not happy with the state of most of the amateur rinks in Que and the province was helping teams/rinks that didn't need the help as much.
This is a long stretch that is historically wrong and very open to misinterpretation as evidenced by your post.

From the 1920s in the province of Quebec and throughout Canada there were joint Job Creation efforts sponsored by federal, provincial and municipal governments. Usually such efforts extended to the private sector as well.

The way such projects worked was that one party would donate land, another party - usually the municipality would declare a tax holiday on various applicable municipal taxes, electricity would be provided at a huge discount, various subsidies from provincial and federal governments would be extended, funding would be provided and guarantees put in place. Management would be provided from various levels down, often including service clubs - Kinsmen, Optimist, etc, private foundations - McConnell, etc.

This approach built arenas, community centers, needed public infra structure and more. Short term jobs were created during the construction with a ripple effect. Also management and long term operations created jobs. Still happens today. Renovation and expansion of the Westmount Arena in Montreal that just ended being an example.

Happens across Canada as well. Basically at the roots of the process is the understanding of the full long term benefits of the joint approach and the trickle down effect. At a street level, the money wasted cleaning-up graffiti, vandalism, etc is not productive but applying the same dollars to projects is.

The implication of the Canadiens in similar projects across Canada, specifically in communities where they were involved in minor hockey.
The expertise gained in Quebec was exported and applied across Canada. Anything wrong with that? The revenues generated from across Canada were filtered and reinvested from Quebec across Canada. Basically defining what a country is about.

The reverse is also true. While not involved in building or financing the infra structure, all the other NHL teams in varying degrees were involved in the province of Quebec. Example would be the New York Rangers who would sponsor teams in various parts of the province -
east end of Montreal, Drummondville, Trois Rivieres, Quebec City. Short list illustration.

Basic closing point is that all the NHL teams from the pre 1967 expansion era were involved with various levels of Canadian government and society in job creation and growth projects. Yes the received benefits, a function and result of their participation. But so did everyone concerned.

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10-27-2013, 07:50 AM
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Can imagine teams Habs would have been in '80s and 90s if sponsorship was still in place. They would have rivaled the '50s and 60s Habs as best ever.

Mario Lemieux, Mike Bossy, Ray Bourque and Patrick Roy as building blocks. Feature in a few other players like Denis Savard, Kevin Lowe, Michel Goulet, Hawerchuk, Lafontaine, Vince Damphousse, Guy Carbonneau, Turgeon, Claude Lemieux.


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10-28-2013, 09:36 PM
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Can imagine teams Habs would have been in '80s and 90s if sponsorship was still in place. They would have rivaled the '50s and 60s Habs as best ever.
I dont think they'd have had access to the aforementioned en mass Mats as the Black Hawks & everyone else wouldve flexed their muscles & began major sponsorships from amateur through Junior throughout the province. And not just Quebec. East coast to BC, throughout the US. In many respects the old sponsorship model far superior to what we have today with the Bantam, Midget & Jr. Drafts. I think we'd have seen & would continue to see more complete players if for example they raised the minimum ages to 20 or 21 before even being allowed to play in the NHL. Organizationally, be it Chicago or Nashville, Montreal or Denver etc, players early instilled with a certain philosophy, of training & character building as was the norm back in the day when you were Habs, Hawks, Bruins, Wings, Rangers or Leafs property.

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10-29-2013, 05:07 AM
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I dont think they'd have had access to the aforementioned en mass Mats as the Black Hawks & everyone else wouldve flexed their muscles & began major sponsorships from amateur through Junior throughout the province. And not just Quebec. East coast to BC, throughout the US. In many respects the old sponsorship model far superior to what we have today with the Bantam, Midget & Jr. Drafts. I think we'd have seen & would continue to see more complete players if for example they raised the minimum ages to 20 or 21 before even being allowed to play in the NHL. Organizationally, be it Chicago or Nashville, Montreal or Denver etc, players early instilled with a certain philosophy, of training & character building as was the norm back in the day when you were Habs, Hawks, Bruins, Wings, Rangers or Leafs property.
That would been fun to watch though. The '80s Habs could have rivaled the '50s Habs as greatest ever. .

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