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10-22-2013, 10:43 AM
  #1
Ilovemymum
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The (AV) SysTEm

I would love to get some enlightenment on what kind of system AV is in process of implementing. Tried to read a bit of his philosophy as a coach, but would very much like to know something that could explain what system we are trying to play, and why the transition from Torts trap based, contraction type back checking?, attack along the boards, use all limbs to stop that puck, manic line shuffling have made this team play like they sharpened their own skates. This Canuck tale is really good on his philosophy, but doesn't say much on the details of his actual system. Maybe digging into what he is trying to accomplish system wise would make it easier / less painfull to watch? (Hope it's ambitious) I think and hope AV can work out great down the road, but would be very nice to know what and when plays are going as planned, and in line with the system.

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10-22-2013, 02:07 PM
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stan the caddy
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Torts ddin't trap at all, he played a really aggressive forecheck. That's where "safe is death" comes from. Even with a lead the Rangers were always forechecking aggressively.

AV likes the trap. He used it with the lead when they beat the Kings.

Torts played the zone collapse. It was simple, don't get beat, stay in your spot, and block the shot. AV plays man down low which is why they're having a lot of breakdowns. It's a little more complicated.

Torts wanted the puck moved quickly through the neutral zone. Dump it in if you have to and you're getting punished if you turn the puck over. The Rangers turned the puck over a lot the first few games but it looks like AV's got them dumping the puck in more over the last couple of games.

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10-22-2013, 02:23 PM
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SwedishBullet62
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"Purely offensive" that's the system or at least that's what I was told by multiple people here during the offseason......

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10-22-2013, 02:26 PM
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I want to see AV over 10 games with all players healthy, it's wrong to put any blame on individuals with so many key players out.

That being said, I miss Torts. Im sure we'd look better after 7 games with him behind the bench, even in this situation. But nice to see he's doing pretty well with the Canucks.

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10-22-2013, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Torts ddin't trap at all, he played a really aggressive forecheck. That's where "safe is death" comes from. Even with a lead the Rangers were always forechecking aggressively.

AV likes the trap. He used it with the lead when they beat the Kings.

Torts played the zone collapse. It was simple, don't get beat, stay in your spot, and block the shot. AV plays man down low which is why they're having a lot of breakdowns. It's a little more complicated.

Torts wanted the puck moved quickly through the neutral zone. Dump it in if you have to and you're getting punished if you turn the puck over. The Rangers turned the puck over a lot the first few games but it looks like AV's got them dumping the puck in more over the last couple of games.
Thank you! Will start looking for traps then. The zone collapse is where the forward drops down in the slot when his man is idle, if I understand it right? The man down low I don't know what is. Does it have anything to do with one of the defenders playing the equivalent of a soccer sweeper in the trap?

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10-22-2013, 05:14 PM
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My incomplete understanding is that for one constant, speed is paramount.
Not to create impression that other things are unimportant. But speed of players is a biggie.

That is why it will help to get speedsters Hags + Cally back, and it is important to allow Kreider and Miller, w/Fast, to feed off each other. No more of this bs w/Pyatt, etc.

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10-22-2013, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
My incomplete understanding is that for one constant, speed is paramount.
Not to create impression that other things are unimportant. But speed of players is a biggie.

That is why it will help to get speedsters Hags + Cally back, and it is important to allow Kreider and Miller, w/Fast, to feed off each other. No more of this bs w/Pyatt, etc.
I think the fact that we saw pyatt go from the 3rd, to 1st, then back to 3rd lines indicates that AV realized there is no talent in him beyond the third line... that would explain why KRIEDER took his place instead.

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10-22-2013, 05:36 PM
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Only reason Pyatt had been overexposed then must be that they have a history together, and he might be comfortable with the system change? Can't be the speed that kept him on.

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10-22-2013, 06:15 PM
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Maybe Pyatt is showing the rest of the team how to play like AV wants them to?

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10-22-2013, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Maybe Pyatt is showing the rest of the team how to play like AV wants them to?
The only thing Pyatt is showing the rest of the team is how to play like ****.

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10-22-2013, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Ilovemymum View Post
Thank you! Will start looking for traps then. The zone collapse is where the forward drops down in the slot when his man is idle, if I understand it right? The man down low I don't know what is. Does it have anything to do with one of the defenders playing the equivalent of a soccer sweeper in the trap?
Man down low means that you check an individual player. If an opposing forward has the puck in the corner, the defenseman goes after him and sticks with him down low even after he doesn't have the puck anymore. The D are responsible for handling the cycle and the center is responsible for covering the player trying to set up in the slot.

It requires soooo much more communication and skating to play this system, which is why it's such a hard adjustment from zone. Going the other way, from man on man to zone, is much easier.

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10-22-2013, 07:10 PM
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10-22-2013, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Torts ddin't trap at all, he played a really aggressive forecheck. That's where "safe is death" comes from. Even with a lead the Rangers were always forechecking aggressively.

AV likes the trap. He used it with the lead when they beat the Kings.

Torts played the zone collapse. It was simple, don't get beat, stay in your spot, and block the shot. AV plays man down low which is why they're having a lot of breakdowns. It's a little more complicated.

Torts wanted the puck moved quickly through the neutral zone. Dump it in if you have to and you're getting punished if you turn the puck over. The Rangers turned the puck over a lot the first few games but it looks like AV's got them dumping the puck in more over the last couple of games.
They were? A lot of Torts games I remember we held onto the lead for dear life when we had it.

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10-22-2013, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
They were? A lot of Torts games I remember we held onto the lead for dear life when we had it.
U agreed with everything else he said but that, we never forechecked hard with a lead that's why opposing fans got so pissed at the system because we have them nothing when we had a lead

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10-23-2013, 05:13 AM
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The system( or whatever you want to call it) clearly relies upon professional hockey players adjusting to a game they have played for a very long time many of which have been exposed to many coaches and learned to play many systems throughout their career. I'm not giving the Rangers players the benefit of learning g a "new system," anymore.

Here's the issue, this group can not play anything other than a defensive rooted style of game. They are too slow to skate the puck through the neutral zone with any regularity, the defense is not a great group of passers so often our outlet passes intended to break us out of our defensive zone creates a turnover, or at best results in the team simply clearing the zone rather than posseing the puck. If the Rangers do get the puck clear of the defensive zone and through the neutral zone our players simply refuse to shoot the puck at the net and when they do, often they miss the net or hit the goalie square in the chest. How many times do you hear who ever is announcing the game( Joe mostly but even the NBC sports guys say this often when calling the Rangers games) that the team does not generate second chance opportunities. Well when the puck ends up in the goalies glove because he covers it, it's often hard to generate second chance opportunities. Once the puck is covered and we lose the resulting face off- happens most of the time, this entire process repeats itself again.

Any NHL coach is counting on his players making sound choices with the puck and skating well enough to get things done. We just don't have the skill to get it done. Without Nash, Callahan, Hagelin a center who can win a face off, a quick puck moving defensemen(Stall a few years ago) or a goalie playing well, we don't really need anyone coaching right now.

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10-23-2013, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHS View Post
The system( or whatever you want to call it) clearly relies upon professional hockey players adjusting to a game they have played for a very long time many of which have been exposed to many coaches and learned to play many systems throughout their career. I'm not giving the Rangers players the benefit of learning g a "new system," anymore.

Here's the issue, this group can not play anything other than a defensive rooted style of game. They are too slow to skate the puck through the neutral zone with any regularity, the defense is not a great group of passers so often our outlet passes intended to break us out of our defensive zone creates a turnover, or at best results in the team simply clearing the zone rather than posseing the puck. If the Rangers do get the puck clear of the defensive zone and through the neutral zone our players simply refuse to shoot the puck at the net and when they do, often they miss the net or hit the goalie square in the chest. How many times do you hear who ever is announcing the game( Joe mostly but even the NBC sports guys say this often when calling the Rangers games) that the team does not generate second chance opportunities. Well when the puck ends up in the goalies glove because he covers it, it's often hard to generate second chance opportunities. Once the puck is covered and we lose the resulting face off- happens most of the time, this entire process repeats itself again.

Any NHL coach is counting on his players making sound choices with the puck and skating well enough to get things done. We just don't have the skill to get it done. Without Nash, Callahan, Hagelin a center who can win a face off, a quick puck moving defensemen(Stall a few years ago) or a goalie playing well, we don't really need anyone coaching right now.
BLOW IT UP!!!

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10-23-2013, 05:42 AM
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I never wanted Torts gone. I like the guy. I don't think he was fully welcome in the locker room anymore so I respect the decision (if that's really what the main reason was), but I never hoped he'd get canned.

That said, it's too early to hate on AV, too. Roster structure, development, etc. sure... but far too early for the coach. Odd situation we're in, all things considered.

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10-23-2013, 06:08 AM
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Guess it's a good point that the SyStEM change should be handled by professionals, but very good to get an understanding of what the system is. In my opinion, the biggest issue now is having three out of top six forwards out, and (both) goalies playing every other game way below 90 %. It's very har to win games that way, and guess most teams in the Conference would have struggled on an eternal roadtrip in the west in a similar situation. For all the praise Hank has gotten for winning games single handedly, he adds to a pile of problems right now. Good thing is that all these unfortunate circumastances are bound to change. Call, Nash and Hags on their way in. Hank haven't had a strech of below 90 % svs since early 2000. Even the slowest of minds will be comfortable With the New system at some point. (Even I understand and have played trap, while the man down low is still making me a bit dissy.) And best of all; This road trio will end. Guaranteed! I don't miss Torts. At least yet. Maybe for Christmas.
Miss his way With the media though.

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10-23-2013, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Torts ddin't trap at all, he played a really aggressive forecheck. That's where "safe is death" comes from. Even with a lead the Rangers were always forechecking aggressively.

AV likes the trap. He used it with the lead when they beat the Kings.

Torts played the zone collapse. It was simple, don't get beat, stay in your spot, and block the shot. AV plays man down low which is why they're having a lot of breakdowns. It's a little more complicated.

Torts wanted the puck moved quickly through the neutral zone. Dump it in if you have to and you're getting punished if you turn the puck over. The Rangers turned the puck over a lot the first few games but it looks like AV's got them dumping the puck in more over the last couple of games.
Torts did NOT employ a really aggressive forecheck. That would require two guys in and one guy forcing the puck carrier from behind the net.

The Rangers rarely had 2 guys deep and usually had one guy float in the offensive zone and would only pressure the puck after it had been moved. Its why they were beaten cleanly out of the opposing teams defensive zone. 2-3 guys breaking out, 1 guy MAYBE 2 guys forechecking.

If the Rangers aggressively forechecked, they wouldn't have have been so easy to skate through. Opposing teams cut through the Rangers like a hot knife through butter through the Neutral zone.

The Rangers only became a stiff team to score against once the opposing team set up shop in our zone because then we cowered and collapsed and took barrage after barrage of shots being blocked by forwards and or defenceman.

Safe is death? Torts system was as safe as you can get.

Torts offensive scheme was get the puck in to the offensive zone. Get to the blueline, dump it and try to get the puck back by outworking the opponent. We heard it time and again, they wanted to get the puck below the hash marks and behind the goalie and keep it there all night.

HOW THE **** DO YOU EXPECT TO SCORE GOALS FROM BEHIND THE NET....IDIOT???

A general question not directed at anyone.

Torts system is and was flawed in design. It's a perimeter based system, keep it along the walls and behind the nets. Goals are not scored from those locations.

The problem that we are seeing now is that as a team, we are being exposed as overachievers in the sense that we are small, slow and not talented enough to play a system designed to come up the ice in unison (as most WC teams do).

We have trouble stringing 2-3 passes together which means turnovers and forces the team to dump it at every chance because their is a lack of talent and cohesion.

AV is not the problem. He may not be a great coach, he's probably just as good a bench boss as is Torts, but the players that he has do not have the size, speed or skill needed to be successful playing the style that AV wants to employ.

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10-23-2013, 08:07 AM
  #20
stan the caddy
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
They were? A lot of Torts games I remember we held onto the lead for dear life when we had it.
The Rangers were one of the most aggressive teams in hockey. They just didn't score a lot. On the other hand, when they played the Bruins, Julien would play four guys on the blue line when he had the lead. That's basically the least aggressive hockey you can play and it resulted in the Rangers having to dump a lot of pucks in.

The real criticism of Torts was that he was too aggressive at times. It worked well though because the Rangers have some wingers that can forecheck.

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10-23-2013, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Torts did NOT employ a really aggressive forecheck. That would require two guys in and one guy forcing the puck carrier from behind the net.

The Rangers rarely had 2 guys deep and usually had one guy float in the offensive zone and would only pressure the puck after it had been moved. Its why they were beaten cleanly out of the opposing teams defensive zone. 2-3 guys breaking out, 1 guy MAYBE 2 guys forechecking.

If the Rangers aggressively forechecked, they wouldn't have have been so easy to skate through. Opposing teams cut through the Rangers like a hot knife through butter through the Neutral zone.

The Rangers only became a stiff team to score against once the opposing team set up shop in our zone because then we cowered and collapsed and took barrage after barrage of shots being blocked by forwards and or defenceman.

Safe is death? Torts system was as safe as you can get.

Torts offensive scheme was get the puck in to the offensive zone. Get to the blueline, dump it and try to get the puck back by outworking the opponent. We heard it time and again, they wanted to get the puck below the hash marks and behind the goalie and keep it there all night.

HOW THE **** DO YOU EXPECT TO SCORE GOALS FROM BEHIND THE NET....IDIOT???

A general question not directed at anyone.

Torts system is and was flawed in design. It's a perimeter based system, keep it along the walls and behind the nets. Goals are not scored from those locations.

The problem that we are seeing now is that as a team, we are being exposed as overachievers in the sense that we are small, slow and not talented enough to play a system designed to come up the ice in unison (as most WC teams do).

We have trouble stringing 2-3 passes together which means turnovers and forces the team to dump it at every chance because their is a lack of talent and cohesion.

AV is not the problem. He may not be a great coach, he's probably just as good a bench boss as is Torts, but the players that he has do not have the size, speed or skill needed to be successful playing the style that AV wants to employ.
They sent two guys in all the time. Did you watch?

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10-23-2013, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
They sent two guys in all the time. Did you watch?
I probably watch 80 games a year and all of the Playoffs. That's just Rangers. I probably watch another 30-40 games on NBC and NHL Network and as much PO hockey as possible aside from the Rangers

And one guy in front of the goalie and one guy high near the blueline is not an agressive forecheck.

An agressive forecheck would have one guy force the puck from behind the net (specifically one side) and have another forechecking player put additional pressure near the faceoff circle on the opposite sde of the pressuring forechecking player.

The Rangers RARELY did that because they are a slow team.

If you know you are slow, you dont over commit like that which is why they didn't, slash that, couldn't agressively forecheck in the manner you describe.

And I have to ask you if you watch them play if you really think that this Rangers team forechecked at all with a lead.

They were one of the worst teams to watch with a lead. They turtled and took a pounding game in and game out when they had a lead.

Rare was the occassion where they controlled the pace and tempo of play when they held a lead.

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10-23-2013, 08:35 AM
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stan the caddy
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I probably watch 80 games a year and all of the Playoffs. That's just Rangers. I probably watch another 30-40 games on NBC and NHL Network and as much PO hockey as possible aside from the Rangers

And one guy in front of the goalie and one guy high near the blueline is not an agressive forecheck.

An agressive forecheck would have one guy force the puck from behind the net (specifically one side) and have another forechecking player put additional pressure near the faceoff circle on the opposite sde of the pressuring forechecking player.

The Rangers RARELY did that because they are a slow team.

If you know you are slow, you dont over commit like that which is why they didn't, slash that, couldn't agressively forecheck in the manner you describe.

And I have to ask you if you watch them play if you really think that this Rangers team forechecked at all with a lead.

They were one of the worst teams to watch with a lead. They turtled and took a pounding game in and game out when they had a lead.

Rare was the occassion where they controlled the pace and tempo of play when they held a lead.
They weren't slow. Hagelin is one of the fastest forecheckers in the the league, probably the fastest. Management has made a point to bring in fast players.

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10-23-2013, 08:40 AM
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Except for when they were killing time at the end of the game, the Rangers always forechecked with two men.

When it didn't work it was because the forecheckers weren't properly supported by the high F or the D men.

The forwards and defense were reluctant to drop too low to put pressure on the opposition. Considering Torts likely reaction to a mistake, I can't say I blame them. But it makes forechecking mch more difficult.

Whether you are checking or trapping, it is all about forcing turnovers. And aggressive forechecks are pointless if you are not willing to commit to pressing the opposition to turn the puck over.

All you are doing is wearing yourself out.

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10-23-2013, 09:16 AM
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They weren't slow. Hagelin is one of the fastest forecheckers in the the league, probably the fastest. Management has made a point to bring in fast players.
You bring up the fastest guy on the team, yet ignore everyone else

Richards is slow.

Stepan is slow

Boyle is slow.

Pyatt is slow

Zuccs is not slow, but he's not a fast player either.

Gaborik had lost a step

Callahan is a great forechecking player.

Nash isn't and never was a great forechecking player

Asham is slow

Powe has decent speed.

The Rangers are NOT a fast team

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