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Old
10-22-2013, 09:49 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
It's not like Holmgren hasn't tried to get a #1 d-man since Pronger got hurt. He tried for Suter and Weber. He tried to get an established # 1 goalie...turned into a nutcase. Philly is one of 6 teams to make the SCF in the lst 4 years. He helped build that team and gets no credit for it. He did the hard thing and traded his captain and Carter....got great young returns for them.

Is he perfect? Absolutely not. But at least with him there, you know he is not content with being bad. We ALL expected them to be better than they are right now. He can't help our proven players to score.

One big fault was to not get a PMD when trading Carter and Richards. If he had done so, we very well could have had Voyonov and JVR instead of Schenn x2
They tried to get him included in the deal but LA told them no dice.

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10-22-2013, 10:03 PM
  #52
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We really need 2 dmen that can skate....at least 1 this year and one next year. Question for the masses, would you entertain a Grossmann for Liles deal if the added a pick? It would help with the quickness of the defense, give another PP option next year, and better balance the d.

I just want some d-men that can skate the puck a bit, lead a rush for once, be creative. Gardiner would be my true target but he would cost too much I think.

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10-22-2013, 10:03 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Even grown men can get frustrated and demoralized. Anyone who has had a bad boss knows this, and Lavi had turned into a bad boss. It's really difficult to work your ass off at something which has repeatedly failed.

The problem is, in a sport if you can't motivate yourself to do what your coach is asking, and it affects conditioning, you aren't going to see a quick turnaround. Especially since the new coach will have a feeling out phase while he does what he wants.
Grown men that aren't professionals roll over and give up when frustrated. Stop trying to compare a bad boss in a regular Joes life to the personal responsibility required by multimillion dollar professional athletes.

It's "really difficult to work your ass off at something which has repeatedly failed"? FFS, get a grip and understand that these guys aren't paid the money they are to give up when their job gets difficult. I get that they aren't robots, but excusing them for acting like pathetic losers because they didn't like the coaches system? C'mon!

The players, just like during the lockout, share equal responsibility (GASP!) with the coach/GM/Owners.

Schenn missed an open net, Homers fault.
Hartnell falling down on his own and not involved in the play, Homers fault.
Giroux scoreless, Homers fault.
Vorachunk is a fattie, Homers fault.

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10-22-2013, 10:17 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
It's not like Holmgren hasn't tried to get a #1 d-man since Pronger got hurt. He tried for Suter and Weber. He tried to get an established # 1 goalie...turned into a nutcase. Philly is one of 6 teams to make the SCF in the last 4 years. He helped build that team and gets no credit for it. He did the hard thing and traded his captain and Carter....got great young returns for them.

Is he perfect? Absolutely not. But at least with him there, you know he is not content with being bad. We ALL expected them to be better than they are right now. He can't help our proven players to score.

One big fault was to not get a PMD when trading Carter and Richards. If he had done so, we very well could have had Voyonov and JVR instead of Schenn x2
I agree with you 100%. He has tried on numerous occasions and especially with getting Bryz like you said but it's not like he turned Bryz into a nutcase. He was a number 1 which everybody in and out of the organization knew the flyers needed(especially after the cup run)

He does have his flaws, see Shelley and Rosehill IMO but he's done more good than bad.

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10-22-2013, 10:18 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
Grown men that aren't professionals roll over and give up when frustrated. Stop trying to compare a bad boss in a regular Joes life to the personal responsibility required by multimillion dollar professional athletes.

It's "really difficult to work your ass off at something which has repeatedly failed"? FFS, get a grip and understand that these guys aren't paid the money they are to give up when their job gets difficult. I get that they aren't robots, but excusing them for acting like pathetic losers because they didn't like the coaches system? C'mon!

The players, just like during the lockout, share equal responsibility (GASP!) with the coach/GM/Owners.

Schenn missed an open net, Homers fault.
Hartnell falling down on his own and not involved in the play, Homers fault.
Giroux scoreless, Homers fault.
Vorachunk is a fattie, Homers fault.
You need to get a grip and understand that money doesn't cure every human flaw. It's not like the Flyers are the only organization that pays millions to play hockey. They can get paid to play hockey in other places, and thanks to guaranteed contracts they can get paid the same amount. If they're in a frustrating situation most of them don't have to think "This sucks! But this is the only team that will pay me millions so I have to grind it out at 100%!"

I'm not saying they're wussing out or rolling over, you don't get this far by having that sort of character; but in a league as competitive as the NHL if you aren't completely behind what you're doing, that small edge is all your opponents need. Keeping Lavi for too long clearly nuked the team mentally. Hartnell had some damning comments months ago about nobody having any idea what to do, and someone else recently mentioned that they had gotten to the point where they had no faith they could win games if they got behind. There were plenty of fans who recognized Lavi was a major problem...I wasn't one of them, but to those posters' credit they got it right. Yet Homer missed it until it was way too late, and it fits his established pattern of keeping people well beyond their expiration date.

Good job with the strawmen at the end.

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Last edited by Beef Invictus: 10-22-2013 at 10:34 PM.
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Old
10-22-2013, 10:56 PM
  #56
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These people shouldn't have trouble performing considering they're built for it literally and they're paid way, way more then they should be and way, way more then the average person but that's not reality. Reality is that they're humans and confidence can get rattled. So can shaking old habits. Laviolette was an old habit that inspired poor confidence. Unfortunately Homer decided to wait three regular season games to realize that for some reason unbeknownst to anybody really and we're paying for that. It's hard to institute a system or even a message with no training camp or off-season in place which is effectively what has happened.

That's why I'm giving this team three or so more games.

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10-23-2013, 12:14 AM
  #57
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at least if this team turns it around we cannot give Holmgren any credit even tho he built this team. the team turns it around it will be on the players. Holmgren gets very little to no credit in the case of a turn around.
Cant have it both ways.

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10-23-2013, 01:45 AM
  #58
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Considering what was available, I still think he had a great offseason. The offense is stacked on paper, but flawed. The defense continues to underperform (which I place blame on the regressing shoulders of Timonen and on Coburn's shoulders...as he seems to have peaked a few seasons ago when he should be striking his prime now as a premier shutdown defenseman), but he's hit a homerun with Mason...and for Michael Leighton? He deserves SOME bonus points for that.

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10-23-2013, 02:59 AM
  #59
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These players are good on paper, I think it is a chemistry problem. While you cannot blame Homer for not predicting how players will play together once acquired perfectly, it is a risk when you as active as changing the roster as the Flyers have been.

With Homer you get good moves and bonehead moves. Here are some.

Good:

- Acquiring rights to Timonen and Hartnell
- Coburn for Zhitnik
- Leino for Tollefsen and 5th
- Voracek, 1rst and 3rd for Carter
- Richards for Simmonds, Schenn and 2nd
- Mason for 3rd + MFL

Bonehead:

- Eminger and 3rd for a 1rst
- Carcillo for Upshall and 2nd
- Giving away a 2nd to get rid of Gauthier's contract (cap issue)
- Signing Bryz
- Trading Bob
- JVR for L. Schenn (looking that way)

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Old
10-23-2013, 06:03 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
These players are good on paper, I think it is a chemistry problem. While you cannot blame Homer for not predicting how players will play together once acquired perfectly, it is a risk when you as active as changing the roster as the Flyers have been.

With Homer you get good moves and bonehead moves. Here are some.

Good:

- Acquiring rights to Timonen and Hartnell
- Coburn for Zhitnik
- Leino for Tollefsen and 5th
- Voracek, 1rst and 3rd for Carter
- Richards for Simmonds, Schenn and 2nd
- Mason for 3rd + MFL

Bonehead:

- Eminger and 3rd for a 1rst
- Carcillo for Upshall and 2nd
- Giving away a 2nd to get rid of Gauthier's contract (cap issue)
- Signing Bryz
- Trading Bob
- JVR for L. Schenn (looking that way)
I would additionally rate the Grossmann acquisition as a good trade because brought more to the team then anticipated and got a well deserved extension. Jury is stillout on the contract itself though.

The short Pavel Kubina in O&B era was a failure considering what he gave up for him.

Trading Bob looks bad right now but was no boneheaded move, at least in my books. Homer liked his play but his hands were bound with Bryz still around till Armageddon and Bob unlikey to re-sign anyway because he wanted to be a starter.

I personally also like that Homer found a way to persuade Vinny to come to Philly. More than half of the league where after him.

Many good minor moves and free agent college player signings are also to be banked on the positive side.

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10-23-2013, 06:19 AM
  #61
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I find it hard to blame the players when they are blamed yearly management with the annual roster turnover.

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Old
10-23-2013, 06:27 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
These players are good on paper, I think it is a chemistry problem. While you cannot blame Homer for not predicting how players will play together once acquired perfectly, it is a risk when you as active as changing the roster as the Flyers have been.

With Homer you get good moves and bonehead moves. Here are some.

Good:

- Acquiring rights to Timonen and Hartnell
- Coburn for Zhitnik
- Leino for Tollefsen and 5th
- Voracek, 1rst and 3rd for Carter
- Richards for Simmonds, Schenn and 2nd
- Mason for 3rd + MFL

Bonehead:

- Eminger and 3rd for a 1rst
- Carcillo for Upshall and 2nd
- Giving away a 2nd to get rid of Gauthier's contract (cap issue)
- Signing Bryz
- Trading Bob
- JVR for L. Schenn (looking that way)
Gauthier was not Homer's fault. Gauthier had a concussion and required a heavy shoulder surgery that took him out for half the season. After that he broke his wrist in like his first game back. He was assigned to the AHL, not for performance or cap problems, but for rehab. Gauthier became damaged goods after that so the Flyers kept him down there, so yes, he had to move him. To use a famous Clarke-ism - Homer didn't tell him to go out there and destroy, almost literally, his entire upper right part of his body. I don't think you can fault a GM for an injury.

Wait that **** was in 2006...Man... Has Homer really been there that long. 2006. **** where does the time go.

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Old
10-23-2013, 10:08 AM
  #63
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I'm glad this thread was made.

I contest that Holmgren has been much better than he gets credit for. You'd think he has wrecked the team during his tenure.

I think we have a great, young roster. It's not performing right now for some reason. Thinking logically, this is a team that we've seen perform before together and it can/will again.

Should he have fired Laviolette earlier? maybe. But now the sticking point for me is that the players aren't playing. They've been incapable of playing what I like to call "Small ball." They're missing passes by a foot, losing the puck without much hassle from forecheckers/D...Just too many mistakes. I have a hard time blaming Holmgren for that. There's the psychological aspect regarding the coach, and that's been corrected now.

A lot of his moves have been pretty good I think. We're in a great position moving forward. I like the players in our prospect pool and on our team.

If he's fired, I won't cry...but I don't think he's driven the franchise into the ground.

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10-23-2013, 10:14 AM
  #64
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Meltzer I think put it best...this is a RESULTS oriented business like any. If the Flyers miss the playoffs again....he's gone regardless of people's perceptions of him.....good, bad or indifferent.

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Old
10-23-2013, 10:43 AM
  #65
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Holmgren has made some good trades and some bad ones. All GMs do that. The problems I have with Holmgren, and why I feel he needs to be replaced are....

a) He built a team that was not well suited to play the style of hockey Laviolette was playing. So either he needed to acquire different types of players or hire a coach that was willing to coach a system that best fit his players. One or the other. The fact that Holmgren didn't feel he needed a match in system and personnel is rather alarming.

b) He continually overpays for players. An example is giving Bryz that insane contract when there was no real competition for his services. Also signing Timonen to a high-priced deal when his best years are clearly gone and the deal he gave Streit.

c) Mishandling the Shea Weber situation. He had a legitimate chance to land a cornerstone defenseman but instead of signing him to a sheet then offering Nashville a viable trade package (Schenn, Coburn, Couturier) he tries to steal him for nothing but picks. Then he was surprised when "Nashville matched" because the information he had said they couldn't match. 90% of hockey fans (and all respected media) knew the Preds were going to match and not let Shea go for picks alone.

d) Overvaluing his players. Willing GMs do not expect rookies and 2nd year (or young) players to take on leadership/impact roles with their teams. Doing this only sets up players for failure and damages their progress in the process. Holmgren is horrific at identifying when players are ready for certain roles.

e) Mishandling and total disregard for the value of draft picks. Giving up a 1st for Eminger and slop was inexcusable. Giving up 1st rounders to negotiate with UFAs is not much better. Giving up a 2nd for Biron when he could have signed him for nothing a few much later was a complete waste. Drafting Peter Luukko's son, regardless of round, was a joke.

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Old
10-23-2013, 10:50 AM
  #66
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The Top-10 bad Holmgren moves that aren’t trading Richards, Carter

http://the700level.com/flyers/the-to...chards-carter/

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10-23-2013, 11:24 AM
  #67
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Can we stop using that as an excuse? We paid a hell of a price for Pronger and mortgaged a bit of the future. It was a good trade with an unfortunate outcome. We lost a good few picks and Lupul for what turned out to be one year of Pronger. That's why it's still a fair excuse.
I agree. Just a bunch of cry babies here who have been waiting in the weeds to come out and ***** as soon as things go bad. The season is not over yet chill people.

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10-23-2013, 11:26 AM
  #68
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My main problem with Homer is his poor (and I mean poor) understanding of the CBA. And yes, I know he has other people that should know it but this along with his mismanaging the cap situation. It's like he has a hard time grasping what a "salary cap" means. I just think your head boss man should understand the main fundamentals.

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10-23-2013, 11:28 AM
  #69
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I agree. Just a bunch of cry babies here who have been waiting in the weeds to come out and ***** as soon as things go bad. The season is not over yet chill people.
Eh I do think they will turn it around and barely make the playoffs but people said the exact same thing past season and they continued to be bad. Obviously new year but I'd wait to judge till they actually win another game.

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10-23-2013, 11:31 AM
  #70
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The Top-10 bad Holmgren moves that aren’t trading Richards, Carter

http://the700level.com/flyers/the-to...chards-carter/
I think #1 should be the Leighton signing. He signed him BEFORE free agency even began, where there were a few obviously superior goaltenders available. This was clearly a massive mistake at the time, and also clearly indicated the team wouldn't be a real contender the following season...those were just the effects immediately predictable.

In the end, it led to Bob being rushed prematurely into a starting role in a pretty extreme situation, instead of being properly developed. When he started crashing and Laviolette botched the goalie situation, it led to the goalie meltdown that in turn led to Snider's temper tantrum, which led to the disastrous Bryzgalov signing...which led to Bob being traded.

To fit Bryz while filling other holes, thanks to the circumstances created by Homer's previous asset and cap management, the team had to be blown up. Then when Bryz self-destructed, Homer had to take measures to try and shore up his investment in goal, leading to the mismatched personnel. He tried to get Lavi to coach outside of his comfort zone which just led to confusion, it all went to hell, and now we have a team trying to get their game and confidence back. Furthermore, last season was made worse because Michael ****ing Leighton was brought back despite being a terrible NHL goalie, meaning we basically had one failing option in net. So, that brings us to today.

All because Paul Holmgren was unable to make a realistic assessment of Leighton's abilities and signed him early in 2010. What an awful move with awful cascading consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
My main problem with Homer is his poor (and I mean poor) understanding of the CBA. And yes, I know he has other people that should know it but this along with his mismanaging the cap situation. It's like he has a hard time grasping what a "salary cap" means. I just think your head boss man should understand the main fundamentals.
I think this is another example of Homer keeping faulty personnel way too long. Hanrahan is supposed to help him with this stuff, and has failed to point out elementary mistakes. Yet he remains employed.

Overall, Homer has the potential to be a very good GM. He has the creativity and the eye for talent, but his flaws bring him down a lot. He has repeatedly made his own job tougher than it should be and repeatedly put the team in difficult situations, when it's a GM's job to put the team in the best possible situation. He's good at fixing things, but it would be better if he didn't make the obvious mistakes to begin with.

Another bad move is renting Versteeg for a 1st. What the hell was the point of that? I was one of the few who were fine with that move at the time...until he traded him a few months later.


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Old
10-23-2013, 11:57 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I think #1 should be the Leighton signing. He signed him BEFORE free agency even began, where there were a few obviously superior goaltenders available. This was clearly a massive mistake at the time, and also clearly indicated the team wouldn't be a real contender the following season...those were just the effects immediately predictable.

In the end, it led to Bob being rushed prematurely into a starting role in a pretty extreme situation, instead of being properly developed. When he started crashing and Laviolette botched the goalie situation, it led to the goalie meltdown that in turn led to Snider's temper tantrum, which led to the disastrous Bryzgalov signing...which led to Bob being traded.

To fit Bryz while filling other holes, thanks to the circumstances created by Homer's previous asset and cap management, the team had to be blown up. Then when Bryz self-destructed, Homer had to take measures to try and shore up his investment in goal, leading to the mismatched personnel. He tried to get Lavi to coach outside of his comfort zone which just led to confusion, it all went to hell, and now we have a team trying to get their game and confidence back. Furthermore, last season was made worse because Michael ****ing Leighton was brought back despite being a terrible NHL goalie, meaning we basically had one failing option in net. So, that brings us to today.

All because Paul Holmgren was unable to make a realistic assessment of Leighton's abilities and signed him early in 2010. What an awful move with awful cascading consequences.



I think this is another example of Homer keeping faulty personnel way too long. Hanrahan is supposed to help him with this stuff, and has failed to point out elementary mistakes. Yet he remains employed.

Overall, Homer has the potential to be a very good GM. He has the creativity and the eye for talent, but his flaws bring him down a lot. He has repeatedly made his own job tougher than it should be and repeatedly put the team in difficult situations, when it's a GM's job to put the team in the best possible situation. He's good at fixing things, but it would be better if he didn't make the obvious mistakes to begin with.

Another bad move is renting Versteeg for a 1st. What the hell was the point of that? I was one of the few who were fine with that move at the time...until he traded him a few months later.
This who was available, IMO Bryz was the arguably the best up to that point

http://twitter.com/NHL_alert/status/...795712/photo/1

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Old
10-23-2013, 12:00 PM
  #72
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This who was available, IMO Bryz was the arguably the best up to that point

http://twitter.com/NHL_alert/status/...795712/photo/1
2010, not 2011. I'm talking about the original Leighton signing, not the Bryz signing.

Edit: Aside from Bryz, there was Vokoun who would have been a competent stopgap to allow Bob to grow, and he would have been significantly cheaper. This was recognized by many at the time. He was sure as hell my preferred option.

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Old
10-23-2013, 12:05 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
....Edit: Aside from Bryz, there was Vokoun who would have been a competent stopgap to allow Bob to grow, and he would have been significantly cheaper. This was recognized by many at the time. He was sure as hell my preferred option.
Ditto....but I never expected Bryz to be so bad!!!

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10-23-2013, 12:09 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
2010, not 2011. I'm talking about the original Leighton signing, not the Bryz signing.

Edit: Aside from Bryz, there was Vokoun who would have been a competent stopgap to allow Bob to grow, and he would have been significantly cheaper. This was recognized by many at the time. He was sure as hell my preferred option.
Sorry misunderstood ya. Can't day I disagree with you on Vokoun though. We all knew Bbb was going to be special

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10-23-2013, 12:09 PM
  #75
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there is ZERO defense for signing Leighton that season. That one signing led to a domino effect at the goaltending position that the organization didnt recover from until this season.
Not only did Leighton get signed but then Leighton lied about an injury. needed surgery and missed time. His contract should of been voided. But no our great and powerful GM with "balls of steel" chose to keep him around.

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