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Old
10-23-2013, 07:39 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
He arguably had the 2nd-3rd hardest minutes of any forward in the NHL last year...

His zone starts were stupid (32% own zone starts, 7th in the NHL) and his QoC was among the top ten for forwards.

He once again this year has the worst zonestarts on the team (after Rinaldo), and the hardest QoC on the team.

His top opponents last year were the Rags top line, Malkins line, Tavares, Kovalcuk, Elias, Staal and Semin.

The year before? Malkin, Neal, Kovalchuk, Tavares and Moulsen.

This year? The Sedin brothers, Crosby, Skinner and Staal.

He plays close to every shift against the best players in the NHL... and still has good Corsi, great last year, and positive this year somehow when the flyers have been abysmal.

He was also playing with extremely varied linemates all last year, with Rinaldo, Knuble, Talbot and Read... three of them do not help with any offence.

The year before he was playing with Talbot, Rinaldo, Shelley, Harry Z and Sestito most.

This year Talbot, Read and Rinaldo...

He put up 29 points playing with 4th liners in 11-12, and factored for 27 playing with 3 fourth liners and Matt Read last year.

No NHL 3rd liner put up 40 points in the last full season played... none, Chris Kelly was closest with 39, and he gets pretty easy minutes for a third liner due to Bostons top two being very good defensively... and has pretty decent linemates.

The only way Couts gets over 40 points this year is if he is moved up the lineup, the zone starts are evened out so he gets over 40%, Talbot is moved down and he is given a LW with some offensive acumen, or he gets extensive PP time.

He has not been put in a position to accumulate points, and you can see now that all he thinks about is defence as that is all he has been told to do for two years straight. He hardly ever gets up near the goaline or behind the net as he is covering back.
With all due respect for your hard work, I don't put much credence in Corsi and I don't believe sports can be reduced to a science. The fact is, if Couturier was a better skater and had better hands, he would have been put in a situation to contribute offensively. being the Flyers desperately need offense. He's a 3rd line player because that's all his skating and offensive instincts permit him to be right now. If the Flyers wasted the 8th overall pick on a defensive forward he better end up Bob freakin' Gainey.

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Old
10-23-2013, 07:55 PM
  #52
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Even without Corsi (which is actually kind of irrelevant in what I just said, apart from showing how good he is defensively, which everyone knows anyway) the other factors are pretty self explanatory as to why someone would be unable to put up points in such a situation. Look at Grabovski last year when he has to play that kind of role... he went from a 50 point forward to a 30 point guy overnight, look at JVR the other-way... 40 point to 60 with a different role.

I would agree on the skating... it needs to improve, but I truly believe he has the offensive instincts.

The thing is... even if he somehow produces 40 points in his current situation, on is on pace for that at the midpoint of the season... how is he going to move up the lineup barring injuries, even if he plays well enough to 'force' his way up? He arguably did enough to force his way up in his first year when people were out, he went up the lineup, played well and put up points, then was moved back down the second they were back.

The only way I see it happening is Lecav moving to G's wing fulltime, and Schenn going to wing, but that pushes more wingers out of the top 6, so Read and Simmonds would be on the 3rd with no decent centres, and Raffl and McGinn would have to play on the 4th or be scratched.

Then we don't have a 3C who can take a lot of defensive draws/play well against the best players in the league... so Couts would end up doing that on the 2nd line and the wingers would offensively as well as Couts due to the better opponents they face.

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10-23-2013, 08:21 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
Even without Corsi (which is actually kind of irrelevant in what I just said, apart from showing how good he is defensively, which everyone knows anyway) the other factors are pretty self explanatory as to why someone would be unable to put up points in such a situation. Look at Grabovski last year when he has to play that kind of role... he went from a 50 point forward to a 30 point guy overnight, look at JVR the other-way... 40 point to 60 with a different role.

I would agree on the skating... it needs to improve, but I truly believe he has the offensive instincts.

The thing is... even if he somehow produces 40 points in his current situation, on is on pace for that at the midpoint of the season... how is he going to move up the lineup barring injuries, even if he plays well enough to 'force' his way up? He arguably did enough to force his way up in his first year when people were out, he went up the lineup, played well and put up points, then was moved back down the second they were back.

The only way I see it happening is Lecav moving to G's wing fulltime, and Schenn going to wing, but that pushes more wingers out of the top 6, so Read and Simmonds would be on the 3rd with no decent centres, and Raffl and McGinn would have to play on the 4th or be scratched.

Then we don't have a 3C who can take a lot of defensive draws/play well against the best players in the league... so Couts would end up doing that on the 2nd line and the wingers would offensively as well as Couts due to the better opponents they face.
Well maybe next time Laughton is in camp homer should keep him he's tearing up the OHL ol right now why not give him a shot at 3c so coots can get these chances to play

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10-23-2013, 08:36 PM
  #54
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A lot of times he is matched up against the best players on the other team so he won't be putting up many points. You don't see many players out there with the ability to shut down Crosby/Malkin on even strength. Having him on this team is much more important than some people think.

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10-23-2013, 09:41 PM
  #55
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Next year:

Giroux - LeCavalier
Couturier - Voracek
Laughton - Simmonds

Until then... stay calm, and don't pull a Homer.

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10-23-2013, 09:46 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
A lot of times he is matched up against the best players on the other team so he won't be putting up many points. You don't see many players out there with the ability to shut down Crosby/Malkin on even strength. Having him on this team is much more important than some people think.
Not sure if anybody else noticed, but he quietly kept Crosby completely contained while he was out there. Crosby's points came when he wasn't on the ice.

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10-23-2013, 09:53 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Not sure if anybody else noticed, but he quietly kept Crosby completely contained while he was out there. Crosby's points came when he wasn't on the ice.
I noticed, and ya know what the best part about that is? I wasn't even surprised or shocked by it. How many other fanbases can say the same about their shutdown center? Boston and Detroit... that's about all I can think of.

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10-23-2013, 09:56 PM
  #58
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For the sake of comparison here are the number 8,9, and 10 draft picks from the 4 years preceding Couturier's draft year.

2010

8- Alexander Burmistrov - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php?pid=117173

9- Mikael Granlund - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php?pid=118389

10- Dylan McIlrath - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php?pid=116161

2009

8- Scott Glennie - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php?pid=106900

9- Jared Cowen - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=98865

10- Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php?pid=117142

2008

8- Mikkel Boedker - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php?pid=106795

9- Josh Bailey - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=89753

10- Cody Hodgson - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=96546

2007

8- Zach Hamill - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=73519

9- Logan Couture - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=89766

10.- Keaton Ellerby - http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=80306

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10-23-2013, 09:58 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
i think hes going to turn it around if they keep him with read and simmonds. this is effectively his rookie year playing 3c and should give us a better sense of his offensive upside
I think now is the time that he has to start showing it. With Read and Simmonds, he has 2 players that produce as 2nd liners. Imagine if that line started clicking how much it would change our team!


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10-23-2013, 10:17 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
I noticed, and ya know what the best part about that is? I wasn't even surprised or shocked by it. How many other fanbases can say the same about their shutdown center? Boston and Detroit... that's about all I can think of.
I'd throw Boyd Gordons name into the ring... but he did have Moss on his wing constantly and Korpikoski quite often as well... and those two guys are also fantastic defensively... and they play a system conducive to stopping others put up points. He also had up until last year Hanzal helping a lot by sharing hard mins. Interesting to see how he will fare in Edmonton. I watched him vs the Habs the other day and he was impeccable.

But yeh, guys that good defensively are not very common. I actually am surprised Couts did not get a few low end Selke votes since Gordon and McClement did... as he probably had as good a year as both.

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10-23-2013, 10:34 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
A lot of times he is matched up against the best players on the other team so he won't be putting up many points. You don't see many players out there with the ability to shut down Crosby/Malkin on even strength. Having him on this team is much more important than some people think.
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Not sure if anybody else noticed, but he quietly kept Crosby completely contained while he was out there. Crosby's points came when he wasn't on the ice.
And yes.

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10-24-2013, 07:50 AM
  #62
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People are upset that a 20 year old who

hasn't even played two full seasons
has been relegated to 3rd and 4th line duty
plays with checking-line/sub-par offensive teammates
matches up against the hardest competition daily
has shown improvement in faceoffs and skating
and is already a top defensive player...

isn't putting up top offensive numbers -- or even very good offensive numbers -- when it's been shown (Appleyard, etc) that people in his position don't have that sort of production.

No wonder we have a bad reputation as fans. And no wonder impatience and Flyers are synonymous.

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10-24-2013, 08:09 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
With all due respect for your hard work, I don't put much credence in Corsi and I don't believe sports can be reduced to a science. The fact is, if Couturier was a better skater and had better hands, he would have been put in a situation to contribute offensively. being the Flyers desperately need offense. He's a 3rd line player because that's all his skating and offensive instincts permit him to be right now. If the Flyers wasted the 8th overall pick on a defensive forward he better end up Bob freakin' Gainey.
The Flyers have Giroux, Lecavalier and BSchenn ahead of him in the center spot. That's why Couturier is on the third line.

I'm not sure where you got the frankly ridiculous idea that the eighth pick in the draft should be guaranteed to be one of the best players in the entire league.

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10-24-2013, 08:43 AM
  #64
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And if he ends up either, he'll be a complete waste of the 8th overall pick. Especially since I think Dougie Hamilton will be a franchise defenseman who plays 27-29 minutes a game and in all situations.
I don't get why you think that this is all on Couturier. The Flyers drafted him at 8 and they are playing him in the TOUGHEST role there is - the checking center. Of course his numbers aren't going to represent the role he plays.

Tell me, how many other 20 year olds out there play the role that Couturier does? If Couturier "only" ends up a third line center in Philadelphia, that certainly isn't his fault - that falls on the team as they believe he's best served in that role.

I'm also going to reserve judgement on a 20 year old because nobody knows how his career is going to project.

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10-24-2013, 08:51 AM
  #65
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Do the people bashing Couturier not remember what it was like to play Crosby and Malkin before Couturier was on the team?

Honestly, I'm completely ****ing baffled right now.

We all praised Richards as one of the top 2-way players in the game, and said how good of a defensive center Carter was...guess what happened when we played the Pens? Crosby and Malkin ****ing shredded us every single frigging game while going head to head against Richards and Carter.

Couturier held Malkin to what, 3 assists, while he was on the ice against him in their first 12 games? Crosby was almost nonexistent in his first matchup against Couturier. He's arguablly one of the top defensive centers in the game already at 20.

Defense is easier to come by than offense, but the type of defensive player Couturier is is just as rare as a top end offensive player. There are only a handful of guys in the league who play the kind of D he's going to be capable of when he fills out over the next couple years.

Please people, get a frigging grip on reality.

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10-24-2013, 09:17 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
People are upset that a 20 year old who

hasn't even played two full seasons
has been relegated to 3rd and 4th line duty
plays with checking-line/sub-par offensive teammates
matches up against the hardest competition daily
has shown improvement in faceoffs and skating
and is already a top defensive player...

isn't putting up top offensive numbers -- or even very good offensive numbers -- when it's been shown (Appleyard, etc) that people in his position don't have that sort of production.

No wonder we have a bad reputation as fans. And no wonder impatience and Flyers are synonymous.
Well said, Appleyard's post too especially.

People in this fan base have unrealistic expectations for these young guys. I'm extremely happy with Cout's progression. I don't doubt the offense will come, we're already seeing improvements in faceoffs (huge difference so far) and skating (not as much, but making strides, Berube will probably help with this).

Most players aren't even in the league at his age, give the kid a break. He's also playing on a god awful team against the best competition the league has to offer. I don't know how people can actually expect him to produce anything. I'm just amazed he has positive corsi.

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10-24-2013, 10:07 AM
  #67
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I think some people overrate Couturier's defensive acumen at this stage. Yes, he has been deployed against tough competition, but he hasn't really done that a great job against them. Sure, there have been a couple high profile performances against Malkin/Crosby but it's not like they've solved those guys with Coots...they still get over 1 pt per game against him and the Flyers.

People like to cite the quality of comeptition and zone starts as a point to justify their view of how good/great the kid is defensively, but when you look at the end result of this, it has been quite poor. The stat showing goals allowed against while Coots is on the ice has been poor and doesn't rank that favorably against other NHL forwards that also face solid competition...also his PK work is poor compared to others on the team and he's made some bad turnovers. It seems he's improved his faceoffs but was pretty weak last season. I think you have to question, as many have, the wisdom of such a strategy of using a 19/20 yr old kid in the way he's been used so far.

That said, I (still) advocate a patient approach with Coots. He's way too young to conclude he's a bust or a future Selke candidate for that matter. From what I see, he needs to improve his skating and be deployed in a way that better utlizes his offensive tools...he needs to mature into his frame and gain confidence, which is common for players of his age...in 2-3 years we should start seeing what the kid's really about...that can get sketchy in terms of his value in trade...right now he's still perceived to be valuable given his age/size/draft position etc., but that may not be the case if his game doesn't get traction in that time.

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10-24-2013, 10:13 AM
  #68
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Couturier is very much like Keith Primeau was when he first came into the league - a gangly kid that is very awkward and difficulties skating. Primeau didn't put it all together until his 4th year. Primeau's third year in the league, he put up 32 points. He also played behind Yzerman and Federov. This whole notion that there's something wrong with Couturier or that he's peaked is absolutely ludicrous.

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10-24-2013, 10:20 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
The Flyers have Giroux, Lecavalier and BSchenn ahead of him in the center spot. That's why Couturier is on the third line.
And Schenn has been spotted as a winger on the top 2 lines because he's shown flashes of being able to skate and produce a bit. Couturier has not. The Flyers are a points-starved team and if Couturier was capable of producing offensively he would have been used on the wing, especially while Hartnell and Lecavalier are on the shelf. The Flyers easily could have Talbot and Hall on 3/4 line duty and move the "offensive powerhouse" up to a scoring line. The fact is they can't because he will slow the line down and doesn't have good scoring hands. Let's not make him out to be this player which he isn't.

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10-24-2013, 10:22 AM
  #70
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This thread is one big FAIL. I hope Holmgren isn't reading this because he would probably agree with all the Couturier detractors and trade him....

Kid is 20 freaking years old and basically is still in his second season since the last season was shortened by the lockout. He's already had to play for 3 or 4 coaches between the NHL and AHL. One of the coaches (Lavi) was ruining his development.

People should be focusing on the more experienced players that are coming up small..terrible!

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10-24-2013, 10:34 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
And Schenn has been spotted as a winger on the top 2 lines because he's shown flashes of being able to skate and produce a bit. Couturier has not. The Flyers are a points-starved team and if Couturier was capable of producing offensively he would have been used on the wing, especially while Hartnell and Lecavalier are on the shelf. The Flyers easily could have Talbot and Hall on 3/4 line duty and move the "offensive powerhouse" up to a scoring line. The fact is they can't because he will slow the line down and doesn't have good scoring hands. Let's not make him out to be this player which he isn't.
Yeah, because Talbot and Hall are as good defensively as Couturier. BSchenn is a better offensive player, but much worse defensively and on faceoffs. That is why he plays center or wing on the top two lines.

Couturier actually has great hands.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...2#.Umk97BCUZ0o

Quote:
Apart from his defensive acumen, Couturier's best asset is his hands. Watch him some time at practice. He can consistently top-shelf pucks from a variety of shooting angles -- this talent was on display in quite a few of his 16 regular season/playoff goals as a rookie. I strongly suspect that he will consistently have double-digit shooting percentages in future
seasons rather than the dismal shooting numbers he had as a second-year NHL player.

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10-24-2013, 11:33 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
And Schenn has been spotted as a winger on the top 2 lines because he's shown flashes of being able to skate and produce a bit. Couturier has not. The Flyers are a points-starved team and if Couturier was capable of producing offensively he would have been used on the wing, especially while Hartnell and Lecavalier are on the shelf. The Flyers easily could have Talbot and Hall on 3/4 line duty and move the "offensive powerhouse" up to a scoring line. The fact is they can't because he will slow the line down and doesn't have good scoring hands. Let's not make him out to be this player which he isn't.
This isn't what's going through their minds. Whether you want to give him credit or not, it's pretty clear that the Flyers understand Couturier's value as a defensive player. It's not a coincidence that he's been matched up against all these great offensive players who have been listed in this thread. The Flyers do not have any other centers/forwards capable of playing shutdown/3rd line center at Couturier's level, so why would they move him up and open up a gap at 3C? Scoring is valuable and at the moment, it's a major problem, but Couturier's offense is a lower priority compared to Giroux's/Jake's/Vinny's/BSchenn's/Hartnell's/Read's/Simmer's.

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10-24-2013, 11:59 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
This isn't what's going through their minds. Whether you want to give him credit or not, it's pretty clear that the Flyers understand Couturier's value as a defensive player. It's not a coincidence that he's been matched up against all these great offensive players who have been listed in this thread. The Flyers do not have any other centers/forwards capable of playing shutdown/3rd line center at Couturier's level, so why would they move him up and open up a gap at 3C? Scoring is valuable and at the moment, it's a major problem, but Couturier's offense is a lower priority compared to Giroux's/Jake's/Vinny's/BSchenn's/Hartnell's/Read's/Simmer's.
How's that been working out for them?

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10-24-2013, 12:00 PM
  #74
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How many centers out there have contained Crosby this year?

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10-24-2013, 12:07 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I think some people overrate Couturier's defensive acumen at this stage. Yes, he has been deployed against tough competition, but he hasn't really done that a great job against them. Sure, there have been a couple high profile performances against Malkin/Crosby but it's not like they've solved those guys with Coots...they still get over 1 pt per game against him and the Flyers.
What they do against the rest of the team or on the PP is irrelevant when talking about Couturier's defense. He can't be held responsible for star players putting up points when the Flyers are down a man or when he's not on the ice.

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