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Official 2014 NHL Draft Discussion, Suck for Sam or Play Bad For Ekblad?

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Old
10-23-2013, 12:04 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I want a player with size and a bit of "wild" in him that plays forward in one of the first three rounds. He doesn't have to score a ton, but he has to be an effective forechecker and a willing combatant. This team lacks that player.
Agree with this. The team thought they got that with Clowe but obviously that was a major bust.

I also think the team lacks a player that can break through the neutral zone. All of the goals the Rangers have scored this season that I can recall have either come off the forecheck, or when they already established a foothold in their opponent's zone.

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10-23-2013, 12:16 PM
  #227
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I rather have Reinhart.

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10-23-2013, 12:21 PM
  #228
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I rather have the significantly better player in 3 years than the worse player immediately. 3rd liners can be found in free agency or even in our own prospect pool. We do not lack depth, we lack high end talent.
We have failed to find those 3. liners for many years now. Hagelin have been the only
one we have brought in or up the last 3 years. I would either have a 3. liner with
some physical play then a top 6 player in 5 years. Imo NYR have picked way
to many project players in McIlwrath, Kreider and Skjei the last years for a team
planning to compete in the next 5 years after drafting Kreider. If the window
is in the next 3 years wo dont really need a emerging 2. line goalscorer in 4 years
as we need a good 3. liner in 2.

At this point I think NYR should consider the players nhl-readiness as a big part
of selecting their bpa.

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10-23-2013, 12:22 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by apoptygma View Post
We have failed to find those 3. liners for many years now. Hagelin have been the only
one we have brought in or up the last 3 years. I would either have a 3. liner with
some physical play then a top 6 player in 5 years. Imo NYR have picked way
to many project players in McIlwrath, Kreider and Skjei the last years for a team
planning to compete in the next 5 years after drafting Kreider. If the window
is in the next 3 years wo dont really need a emerging 2. line goalscorer in 4 years
as we need a good 3. liner in 2.

At this point I think NYR should consider the players nhl-readiness as a big part
of selecting their bpa.
Hagelin, Korpikoski, Miller (soon to be), Lindberg, Fast, Kreider, Hrivik, Yogan. A lot of these guys project as 3rd liners.

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10-23-2013, 01:09 PM
  #230
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Hagelin, Korpikoski, Miller (soon to be), Lindberg, Fast, Kreider, Hrivik, Yogan. A lot of these guys project as 3rd liners.
Exactly. We have quite a few forward prospects in HFD, I'm sure there will be a couple who will prove to be excellent third liners at least. You need to go BPA in the first round, solely considering the projected ability, not the timeframe. In later rounds I'm fine with doing different things.

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10-23-2013, 02:13 PM
  #231
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all weve done in recent history is draft forwards who project to be "safe" or project to be top 6 offensive guys who end up being safe 3rd liner types.

we have had no luck drafting or even developing elite or near elite offensive forwards.

anyone who remotely fits that bill has been acquire via fa or trade.

i continue to be skeptical of our drafting decisions and results.

we are seeing now what happens when young, affordable offensive talent is lacking within an organization.

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10-23-2013, 05:18 PM
  #232
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No matter how many times we go to the ECF, we still lost. Unless you win the cup, you lose.

The ECF team was an anomaly. People seem to think that just because that happened, we are a good team. That year, the stars aligned and everything worked out perfectly. I will guarantee, right now, that will never happen again. We need to rebuild the correct way.

We haven't won a cup in 20 years. We haven't been successful in 20 years.

If you don't think we have a chance to win the cup in the next 2-3 years why hold onto our current roster? We should sell them before their value plummets.

The longer we sit around the 15-25 spot, the worse off we will get. NYR needs to make a decision right now. Rebuild or retool. If we decide to keep the same core, we need MAJOR retooling.
We need the horses.
Only 2 ways for that, since free agency has cap, etc. limitations.

1. Draft brilliantly.
2. Draft well enough, but then trade brilliantly.

I advocated trading guys who could deliver a nice overpayment to make it worth our while; Girardi... Stepan, etc. for examples. I especially mean guys you can bundle to diminish the talent gap. Even if it meant taking a chance (McDonnagh + small add for MacKinnon gambling he is at least a Tavares, WITH added benefit of snaring a Duncan Siemens; that is one of the few I would put McD in and I want more than a 1 for 1. Alternatively, maybe something like gambling on Brassard and dealing Stepan + for Seth Jones or Ritsolanen.)

The focus was too heavy on what it cost short term and not as much on the all important upside, that realizing potential was a way to get a better player in the end.

I kept hearing it from most of you, how wrong this was, and we are in win now mode and our talent was enough, and we didn't have to so aggressively attempt to add quality on the fly.

I admit Girardi has been great. Pleased with him as a Ranger. But there was a time when he was at the peak of his best year he would have brought more if flipped then than if flipped now. Especially with another add.

If you wanna make up for not drafting superbrilliantly, ya gotta squeeze together shrewd moves like this.

We are all entitled to our opinions.
I am trying to be more open minded about a lot of what you guys say.

I believe having a more open mind to some of my initiatives will better serve us as well. Not in the interests of mutual courtesy, but as a matter of strategy.

I appreciate all constructive comments, as always.
I again invite critics to consider the above.

You should NOT hold back your criticism. But I insist it be warranted, to be meaningful.
Competition of ideas, freedom of speech.

We need to think outside the box as well as inside, and not crucify those who do with knee jerk reactions like, we can't trade our D corp, we can't do this, we can't do that.

Every move has it's positives and negatives.
It would be smart if we can put all our heads together and come up with the most accurate compendium of moves, with the intent of executing the best ones.

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10-23-2013, 06:27 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
We need the horses.
Only 2 ways for that, since free agency has cap, etc. limitations.

1. Draft brilliantly.
2. Draft well enough, but then trade brilliantly.


I advocated trading guys who could deliver a nice overpayment to make it worth our while; Girardi... Stepan, etc. for examples. I especially mean guys you can bundle to diminish the talent gap. Even if it meant taking a chance (McDonnagh + small add for MacKinnon gambling he is at least a Tavares, WITH added benefit of snaring a Duncan Siemens; that is one of the few I would put McD in and I want more than a 1 for 1. Alternatively, maybe something like gambling on Brassard and dealing Stepan + for Seth Jones or Ritsolanen.)

The focus was too heavy on what it cost short term and not as much on the all important upside, that realizing potential was a way to get a better player in the end.

I kept hearing it from most of you, how wrong this was, and we are in win now mode and our talent was enough, and we didn't have to so aggressively attempt to add quality on the fly.

I admit Girardi has been great. Pleased with him as a Ranger. But there was a time when he was at the peak of his best year he would have brought more if flipped then than if flipped now. Especially with another add.

If you wanna make up for not drafting superbrilliantly, ya gotta squeeze together shrewd moves like this.

We are all entitled to our opinions.
I am trying to be more open minded about a lot of what you guys say.

I believe having a more open mind to some of my initiatives will better serve us as well. Not in the interests of mutual courtesy, but as a matter of strategy.

I appreciate all constructive comments, as always.
I again invite critics to consider the above.

You should NOT hold back your criticism. But I insist it be warranted, to be meaningful.
Competition of ideas, freedom of speech.

We need to think outside the box as well as inside, and not crucify those who do with knee jerk reactions like, we can't trade our D corp, we can't do this, we can't do that.

Every move has it's positives and negatives.
It would be smart if we can put all our heads together and come up with the most accurate compendium of moves, with the intent of executing the best ones.
I agree very much with the underlined. Girardi should have been traded right after his all star year. If you don't think a player will continue to perform at a high level trade him before his stock drops. For example, I think trading Stepan over the summer was a good idea, because he was unlikely to repeat his performance from last year. The players we would have gotten for him is worth much more than his value once he can't continue his elite play. Sell an average player while he's playing elite for a larger return than he's worth.

What I don't agree with is trading a proven commodity for someone who hasn't even completed 1 season in the NHL. Trading McDonagh for Jones or MacKinnon is foolish imo. McDonagh is a top 20 dman in the league right now at the very least. He is still developing, only going to improve. Trading him for a rookie in the hope that we end up ahead is too large of a gamble to take.

What I would do though, is trade proven commodity for proven commodity. McDonagh for Hall/ Tavares/ Duchene/ Couture.

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Old
10-24-2013, 12:43 AM
  #234
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Some lesser known guys tearing it up right now:

1) Spencer Watson - Bennett's wing rides shotgun..not much of a creator, but gets into the right spaces and has a lethal release..has quick hands to pull the puck where he wants to rip it..started off average scoring 6 pts in 6 games, then was injured, has come back and put up 7 points in 2 games.

2) Julius Honka - Not the biggest defenseman, but after hearing so much about Roland McKeown -- this guy can challenge his crown for best skating defenseman..seems more aggressive and able to affect the game than RM..so slick and skilled with the puck..will continue to monitor to see if his defense is up to par.

3) Nikita Scherbak - Russian winger has been a force for Saskatoon in October..doing a lot of damage on the power play recently converting close to the net with authoritative finish..another one of those guys who can beat a goalie a variety of ways..following the play a bit so would like to see some goals come from offensive initiative and ability.

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10-24-2013, 12:54 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Manhattan Blue View Post
Some lesser known guys tearing it up right now:

1) Spencer Watson - Bennett's wing rides shotgun..not much of a creator, but gets into the right spaces and has a lethal release..has quick hands to pull the puck where he wants to rip it..started off average scoring 6 pts in 6 games, then was injured, has come back and put up 7 points in 2 games.
Is Watson the kind of player that is dependent on his line mates though? Like if he wasn't with Bennett would he be as effective?

Also with Bennett, he is definitely a more gritty player that I thought, but do you think he can hold up in the NHL playing that style? I get nervous about players that play too big for their size, and once they get to the NHL they get injured or bullied because its not sustainable.

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10-24-2013, 01:12 AM
  #236
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Is Watson the kind of player that is dependent on his line mates though? Like if he wasn't with Bennett would he be as effective?

Also with Bennett, he is definitely a more gritty player that I thought, but do you think he can hold up in the NHL playing that style? I get nervous about players that play too big for their size, and once they get to the NHL they get injured or bullied because its not sustainable.
We'll see over the course of the year. Right now he is absolutely benefitting from the play being pushed to the offensive zone because of Bennett (and his team frankly as Kingston is good).

If SB were an inch or more shorter I'd be worried but he's cleared 6. Cally's been doing it as a smurf 5'11. I think if he doesn't grow he'll understand and won't bang as much in the NHL. If he does grow, watch out as he'll be akin to a mini-Ovi IMO.

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10-24-2013, 01:30 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Manhattan Blue View Post
We'll see over the course of the year. Right now he is absolutely benefitting from the play being pushed to the offensive zone because of Bennett (and his team frankly as Kingston is good).

If SB were an inch or more shorter I'd be worried but he's cleared 6. Cally's been doing it as a smurf 5'11. I think if he doesn't grow he'll understand and won't bang as much in the NHL. If he does grow, watch out as he'll be akin to a mini-Ovi IMO.

That's pretty high praise. I was wondering if you had a guy in mind that fits the criteria of being strong breaking through the neutral zone and creating their own shot and effectively scoring. Rangers really missing that kind of player that can be dangerous coming through the neutral zone.

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10-24-2013, 02:44 AM
  #238
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So far news on William Nylander is that this year is pretty lousy for him. Having a bad start on a team in real thick mud. Can see him dropping out of the top 5 - even top 10 - if this skid continues. He should not have walked away from his valid contract with Södertälje and gone to Rögle. They had high plans of developing him. Shows a hint of bad character/judgement - even if his Dad made the call.

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10-24-2013, 05:29 AM
  #239
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That's pretty high praise. I was wondering if you had a guy in mind that fits the criteria of being strong breaking through the neutral zone and creating their own shot and effectively scoring. Rangers really missing that kind of player that can be dangerous coming through the neutral zone.
Lol, I feel like a broken record. It's Bennett right now. He could be a little more refined in terms of skating and hands and who knows if he keeps this up which would drop him a bit...but shift after shift this guy goes end to end. His D expects him to grab the puck and then he rockets thru the neutral zone and splits the D. He can deke and stutter step at high speed very well.

Sam Reinhart is a weird prospect for me. He's the opposite. His game is high percentage tic tac toe progression up the ice - I've not once seen him take the puck and try to beat a guy on his own which is a little concerning. His skating doesn't have that explosiveness you want and those ******* tongues flipped over his laces are a visual mind**** as far as judging skating haha. He doesn't ooze talent to me - he's just a really ****ing smart player who is getting it done at a high level.

And please god no on Ekblad.
Nice player, just not the right D for us especially if we're picking top 10. Hunchback reminds me of Dan Girardi. Ekblad is slow in reverse, I am seeing some bad reads in his own zone, he's got nice hands and shot but his whole game just lacks that next gear. Does not have a dominant defensive stand nor can he take over offensively so what's the point?


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10-24-2013, 05:37 AM
  #240
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I started off with the guys highest ranked by mainstream lists and this what my thoughts are (CHL only - not going to youtube scout EUR and US):

1) Sam Bennett
2) Brendan Perlini
3) Sam Reinhart
4) Jared McCann
5) Michael Dal Colle
6) Leon Draisaitl
7) Aaron Ekblad
8) Nick Ritchie
9) Haydn Fleury
10) Jake Virtanen

I use a formula for this so this is using stats up to October 19th. Right now, Virtanen would be higher (prob 7th) as he's had a few really good games recently.


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10-24-2013, 05:49 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Manhattan Blue View Post
I started off with the guys highest ranked by mainstream lists and this what my thoughts are (CHL only - not going to youtube scout EUR and US):

1) Sam Bennett
2) Brendan Perlini
3) Sam Reinhart
4) Jared McCann
5) Michael Dal Colle
6) Leon Draisaitl
7) Aaron Ekblad
8) Nick Ritchie
9) Haydn Fleury
10) Jake Virtanen

I use a formula for this so this is using stats up to October 19th. Right now, Virtanen would be higher (prob 7th) as he's had a few really good games recently.
the **** is this? Ekblad is at worst the 2nd best player in this draft

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10-24-2013, 06:11 AM
  #242
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the **** is this? Ekblad is at worst the 2nd best player in this draft
Why? I've explained myself and don't think so. He's a -5; actually watching the games I see why? Because you're too afraid to believe anything different than consensus or do you just like average hockey players? He's not the dominant D people are led to believe and I see Keaton Ellerby.

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10-24-2013, 07:21 AM
  #243
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Why? I've explained myself and don't think so. He's a -5; actually watching the games I see why? Because you're too afraid to believe anything different than consensus or do you just like average hockey players? He's not the dominant D people are led to believe and I see Keaton Ellerby.
There is zero percent chance he gets drafted lower than 2. 7th best player available is laughable. Ekblad is going to be a beast.

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10-24-2013, 07:24 AM
  #244
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There is zero percent chance he gets drafted lower than 2. 7th best player available is laughable. Ekblad is going to be a beast.
Just like Seth Jones last year, right?

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10-24-2013, 07:26 AM
  #245
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Just like Seth Jones last year, right?
And now Seth Jones is making people look stupid. Anything else?

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10-24-2013, 07:36 AM
  #246
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And now Seth Jones is making people look stupid. Anything else?
Seth Jones is playing like a #1, #2 overall pick right now for sure. However I don't think anyone else regrets anything seeing as 1, 2, and 3 are all playing like a #1, #2 overall pick as well. So far I would say those were all solid draft picks.

It's way too early to know who will go where. Very highly touted draft eligible kids have fallen significantly before a draft day before.

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10-24-2013, 07:45 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Manhattan Blue View Post
I started off with the guys highest ranked by mainstream lists and this what my thoughts are (CHL only - not going to youtube scout EUR and US):

1) Sam Bennett
2) Brendan Perlini
3) Sam Reinhart
4) Jared McCann
5) Michael Dal Colle
6) Leon Draisaitl
7) Aaron Ekblad
8) Nick Ritchie
9) Haydn Fleury
10) Jake Virtanen

I use a formula for this so this is using stats up to October 19th. Right now, Virtanen would be higher (prob 7th) as he's had a few really good games recently.
I really appreciate the analysis you are giving in this thread. Great reads!

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10-24-2013, 08:09 AM
  #248
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Seth Jones is playing like a #1, #2 overall pick right now for sure. However I don't think anyone else regrets anything seeing as 1, 2, and 3 are all playing like a #1, #2 overall pick as well. So far I would say those were all solid draft picks.

It's way too early to know who will go where. Very highly touted draft eligible kids have fallen significantly before a draft day before.
I think the point though is, no disrespect to Mackinnon or Barkov, that just because he went 4th doesn't mean thats where he should have went. Tampa should have absolutely picked him 3rd at least, especially since Drouin isn't even playing in the NHL right now. Panthers should have taken him as well. Time will tell but at present, he is styling all over people and I think in very short time, the two teams that could have taken him 2nd or 3rd are going to look back and kick themselves for not doing so. He was BPA AND filled a need for each of those teams.

There is no way Ekblad falls passed 2nd though.

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10-24-2013, 08:26 AM
  #249
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I agree very much with the underlined. Girardi should have been traded right after his all star year. If you don't think a player will continue to perform at a high level trade him before his stock drops. For example, I think trading Stepan over the summer was a good idea, because he was unlikely to repeat his performance from last year. The players we would have gotten for him is worth much more than his value once he can't continue his elite play. Sell an average player while he's playing elite for a larger return than he's worth.

What I don't agree with is trading a proven commodity for someone who hasn't even completed 1 season in the NHL. Trading McDonagh for Jones or MacKinnon is foolish imo. McDonagh is a top 20 dman in the league right now at the very least. He is still developing, only going to improve. Trading him for a rookie in the hope that we end up ahead is too large of a gamble to take.

What I would do though, is trade proven commodity for proven commodity. McDonagh for Hall/ Tavares/ Duchene/ Couture.
What...? No...When Girardi was an All-Star we were in win-now mode, making a deal for Nash. We were looking to win the Cup. Why would you trade your #1 RHD?

And trade Stepan? At 23 years old!? He's increased his point totals every year he's been in the league and played just under a PPG pace last year. He probably would have finished around 70. You do not trade him unless someone calls and offers something ridiculous.

And then you go on about not wanting to trade McDonagh because he's "proven." How is Stepan not proven? With Richards being a HUGE question mark (and even switching to wing), Stepan is our only legit #1 center. Even if Step wasn't proven, how do you become proven, without giving the kid a shot? We'd just see him become a stud on another team. No thanks.

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10-24-2013, 09:07 AM
  #250
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I think the point though is, no disrespect to Mackinnon or Barkov, that just because he went 4th doesn't mean thats where he should have went. Tampa should have absolutely picked him 3rd at least, especially since Drouin isn't even playing in the NHL right now. Panthers should have taken him as well. Time will tell but at present, he is styling all over people and I think in very short time, the two teams that could have taken him 2nd or 3rd are going to look back and kick themselves for not doing so. He was BPA AND filled a need for each of those teams.

There is no way Ekblad falls passed 2nd though.
I'm not doubting Seth Jones' ability and he certainly could've gone at #1-2, but stating such things as definite fact more than 6 months prior to the draft is stupid. Things can change and teams can have other needs. It has happened with Jones, it can happen with Ekblad.

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