HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Notices

FA Signings, Trade Rumors and Proposals Thread VIII: "The makeup has to be jigged"

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-24-2013, 01:27 AM
  #76
Lay Z Boy GM
Registered User
 
Lay Z Boy GM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: West coast
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnt Biscuits View Post
Nothing to do with race, everything to do with being cocky IMO. Anyone in hockey who is cocky and really confident usually gets attacked unless they can really back it up. It's pretty rare for the hockey media or the NHL in general to embrace people who stand out or really speak their minds, hockey is a game of cliches and canned questions and answers, it plays it all very safe and straight laced.
That's probably it. Like I said already, wasn't trying to get into some heated racial discussion. The media seems to pile it on these guys a little more than most, not saying the media is racist but maybe this kind of junk gets viewers for whatever reason.

No reason for nasty words, folks. I never normally bring up race, I was just making an observation.

edit: I should probably tie this in with the actual topic. I would take Evander Kane in a heartbeat. The kid can play, I don't care if he's aware of the fact that he's good.


Last edited by Lay Z Boy GM: 10-24-2013 at 01:32 AM.
Lay Z Boy GM is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 05:33 AM
  #77
Pajicz
Registered User
 
Pajicz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Country:
Posts: 3,853
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Pajicz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Is the fact they have too much high end talent one of them? No.
"Balance" is a load of crap. The best teams are the ones with the best players. That's it.
I really disagree with this. The Stanley Cup winner is usually the team that has the best 3rd and 4th lines... Not necessarily the best first line.

Unbalanced roster can get you wins in regular season, but depth is the key in playoffs.

Pajicz is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 07:44 AM
  #78
DousedInOil
Registered User
 
DousedInOil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Katy <3
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,372
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajicz View Post
I really disagree with this. The Stanley Cup winner is usually the team that has the best 3rd and 4th lines... Not necessarily the best first line.

Unbalanced roster can get you wins in regular season, but depth is the key in playoffs.
Carolina won the cup without even playing their fourth line. I think they played like 3 minutes a game and didn't score a single goal all playoffs. Depth in the top 9 is important but I don't buy the importance of a fourth line.

DousedInOil is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 08:08 AM
  #79
Moose Coleman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
Yea thats right... You can have all the offense in the world but defence is what wins you games.
Except that's not what people talk about when they talk about balance. It's shorthand for size and grit hereabouts, which is not necessarily the same thing as defensive ability.


Quote:
As you brought up int this thread I said I dont care if we have 3-4-5 thirty goal scorers if we dont win games. Last year we had 4 guys on pace for 25+ goals and were 10 points out of the playoffs.
Goals correlate strongly with wins. It's pretty simple. A team with 3-4-5 30 goal scorers would have to be pretty amazingly porous to not make the playoffs.

BTW, the Oilers were pretty pedestrian offensively last year, barely middle of the pack in GF IIRC.

Quote:
Mean while a team like the blues with two guys on pace for 25+ goals finishes 4th in the division. Guys who can prevent goals are just as important as guys scoring them and once we as fans figure that out we'll be a lot better off.
You know a good way to prevent goals? By having guys who can carry the play offensively.

Moose Coleman is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 08:33 AM
  #80
Jimmi Jenkins
Always the Bards
 
Jimmi Jenkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,294
vCash: 612
A couple deals to change things up for the Oilers, the Caps and Sabres as partners.

So the Caps have problems on the blueline, the Oilers do too, but in terms of general depth, the Oilers are in a bit better shape, so maybe something like this, plus it will create some cap space for the Caps.

To WSH - N Schultz, Potter, Labarbra and 2014 2nd

To EDM - Erat and Neuvirth


Then, with a bit more space on the blueline, hit up the Sabres

To BUF - Marincin, Jones, 2015 2nd and 2014 3rd

To EDM - Erhoff and Porter

Finally, mutually release Grebeshkov back to the KHL, so the team looks like

Hall - Nuge - Hemsky
Perron - Gagner - Eberle
Erat - Arcobello - Yakupov
Joensuu - Gordon - Pitlick
Gadzic, Acton

Porter to OKC

Erhoff - Petry
Ference - J Schultz
Smid - Belov
Larsen, Fedun

Dubnyk
Neuvirth

Not bad, imo.

Jimmi Jenkins is online now  
Old
10-24-2013, 08:41 AM
  #81
Oilfan2
Oil the way..
 
Oilfan2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,280
vCash: 1507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
A couple deals to change things up for the Oilers, the Caps and Sabres as partners.

So the Caps have problems on the blueline, the Oilers do too, but in terms of general depth, the Oilers are in a bit better shape, so maybe something like this, plus it will create some cap space for the Caps.

To WSH - N Schultz, Potter, Labarbra and 2014 2nd

To EDM - Erat and Neuvirth


Then, with a bit more space on the blueline, hit up the Sabres

To BUF - Marincin, Jones, 2015 2nd and 2014 3rd

To EDM - Erhoff and Porter

Finally, mutually release Grebeshkov back to the KHL, so the team looks like

Hall - Nuge - Hemsky
Perron - Gagner - Eberle
Erat - Arcobello - Yakupov
Joensuu - Gordon - Pitlick
Gadzic, Acton

Porter to OKC

Erhoff - Petry
Ference - J Schultz
Smid - Belov
Larsen, Fedun

Dubnyk
Neuvirth

Not bad, imo.
?? I kept looking for the

Both of those deals suck for the other team and will never happen.

Oilfan2 is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 08:46 AM
  #82
CupofOil
Registered User
 
CupofOil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Rock Bottom
Country: United States
Posts: 13,596
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
Ignoring the trading Yak angle for a second,
I wonder what it would take for the Rangers to trade Girardi. From their forum, it seems he's one of the few guys who isn't fitting in with AV's new system.

I think trading for him would round out our D. I don't think a guy who has played good D for so many years just forgets in one offseason. With the Rangers struggling (OMG we have more points than them!), maybe they think of cashing in on their free agents. Some of their beat writers have said that could be a possibility if the struggles continue(of the team that is).

Physical D-man who can move the puck out of our zone and play tough minutes. He won't come cheap, but I think he'd be a great addition for us.
Yak

I kid. I know that he's an upcoming UFA. Girardi would be a very good pickup for us, i would assume that we send a D to them in any deal for him to free up salary (N. Schultz + 1st rounder maybe). It's tricky because there's a good chance that he doesn't re-sign here so i'd be wary of giving up too much for him.


Last edited by CupofOil: 10-24-2013 at 08:54 AM.
CupofOil is online now  
Old
10-24-2013, 08:54 AM
  #83
Jimmi Jenkins
Always the Bards
 
Jimmi Jenkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,294
vCash: 612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilfan2 View Post
?? I kept looking for the

Both of those deals suck for the other team and will never happen.
They could always swap Schultz for Smid, and it works a bit better, the other one may seem slightly iffy, but the Sabres are in a terrible spot right now, as they don't win.

Jimmi Jenkins is online now  
Old
10-24-2013, 09:06 AM
  #84
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 24,921
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
A couple deals to change things up for the Oilers, the Caps and Sabres as partners.

So the Caps have problems on the blueline, the Oilers do too, but in terms of general depth, the Oilers are in a bit better shape, so maybe something like this, plus it will create some cap space for the Caps.

To WSH - N Schultz, Potter, Labarbra and 2014 2nd

To EDM - Erat and Neuvirth


Then, with a bit more space on the blueline, hit up the Sabres

To BUF - Marincin, Jones, 2015 2nd and 2014 3rd

To EDM - Erhoff and Porter

Finally, mutually release Grebeshkov back to the KHL, so the team looks like

Hall - Nuge - Hemsky
Perron - Gagner - Eberle
Erat - Arcobello - Yakupov
Joensuu - Gordon - Pitlick
Gadzic, Acton

Porter to OKC

Erhoff - Petry
Ference - J Schultz
Smid - Belov
Larsen, Fedun

Dubnyk
Neuvirth

Not bad, imo.
I don't think we have the cap room to do that. Plus I don't think we are giving up enough in either deal.

joestevens29 is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 09:33 AM
  #85
Jimmi Jenkins
Always the Bards
 
Jimmi Jenkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,294
vCash: 612
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
I don't think we have the cap room to do that. Plus I don't think we are giving up enough in either deal.
The Cap space is tight, but it should be workable, especially with the mutual release of Grebeshkov.

I was thinking, in the Washington deal, you can swap Smid for N Schultz and the value gets close, imo.

Jimmi Jenkins is online now  
Old
10-24-2013, 09:38 AM
  #86
joestevens29
Registered User
 
joestevens29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 24,921
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
The Cap space is tight, but it should be workable, especially with the mutual release of Grebeshkov.

I was thinking, in the Washington deal, you can swap Smid for N Schultz and the value gets close, imo.
That could work with WSH, for Buffalo they need a 1st IMO.

joestevens29 is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 09:49 AM
  #87
Jimmi Jenkins
Always the Bards
 
Jimmi Jenkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,294
vCash: 612
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
That could work with WSH, for Buffalo they need a 1st IMO.
Fair enough, I would still be willing to see both those deals done, I think they do alot to improve the team now and going forward.

Jimmi Jenkins is online now  
Old
10-24-2013, 10:01 AM
  #88
jadeddog
Registered User
 
jadeddog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Posts: 11,794
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pajicz View Post
I really disagree with this. The Stanley Cup winner is usually the team that has the best 3rd and 4th lines... Not necessarily the best first line.

Unbalanced roster can get you wins in regular season, but depth is the key in playoffs.
this is 100% true, for the 3rd line anyhow (i don't think 4th lines matter at all actually)... but it makes a certain assumption, that being: any team that has any hope of making it to the final 4 teams must have a very good top line.... put another way, a very good 1st line is necessary, but not sufficient, to being a very good NHL team .... this necessary, but not sufficient, attribute is also somewhat true of 2nd lines in the playoffs as well IMO, although the rule isn't as stringent as with 1st lines

that 3rd line dominance in the playoffs is then what often separates good teams from great teams, again assuming they all have top-lines that are playing well

so how does this play into the yakupov trade scenarios? by keeping yakupov the oilers are very likely guaranteeing that they will have this necessary condition for their top 2 lines.... hall/RNH/eberle, perron/gagner/yakupov is pretty much as good as any teams top-6 in the entire league IMO... or at least it will be next year and the years after.... 3rd liners are a lot easier to find, and can be had on the open market, you don't trade a player that makes your top-6 great to make your 2rd line great.... its simply doesn't make any sense

jadeddog is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 10:14 AM
  #89
MIL OIL
Registered User
 
MIL OIL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Cochrane AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 183
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DousedInOil View Post
Carolina won the cup without even playing their fourth line. I think they played like 3 minutes a game and didn't score a single goal all playoffs. Depth in the top 9 is important but I don't buy the importance of a fourth line.
Thats one example tho.. L.A, Boston, and Chicago's fourth lines were crucial to them winning a cup. IMO a good fourth line helps a team a long way. Playing 4 round of playoff hockey with 3 lines isn't always going to work in your favor. Winning in the NHL today is 100% about depth down to your 13th forward.

MIL OIL is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 10:17 AM
  #90
Moose Coleman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
this is 100% true, for the 3rd line anyhow (i don't think 4th lines matter at all actually)... but it makes a certain assumption, that being: any team that has any hope of making it to the final 4 teams must have a very good top line.... put another way, a very good 1st line is necessary, but not sufficient, to being a very good NHL team .... this necessary, but not sufficient, attribute is also somewhat true of 2nd lines in the playoffs as well IMO, although the rule isn't as stringent as with 1st lines

that 3rd line dominance in the playoffs is then what often separates good teams from great teams, again assuming they all have top-lines that are playing well
Going into the rebuild, I heard a lot of people talk about how you can't be a true contender with out top end elite talent. And now, all of a sudden, third liners are the key. Pretty funny.

Anyway, we all agree that good teams have depth, the question is whether trading away top talent for depth players is a good idea. I can't think of any team that has done that and been successful as a result.

Moose Coleman is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 10:27 AM
  #91
A Classy Banana
Registered User
 
A Classy Banana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 284
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
The Cap space is tight, but it should be workable, especially with the mutual release of Grebeshkov.

I was thinking, in the Washington deal, you can swap Smid for N Schultz and the value gets close, imo.
Forgetting the massive onesidedness of your deals, the Oilers don't have a 2nd round draft pick in 2014. They traded it to St. Louis.

A Classy Banana is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 10:34 AM
  #92
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,107
vCash: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Except that's not what people talk about when they talk about balance. It's shorthand for size and grit hereabouts, which is not necessarily the same thing as defensive ability.
Would you not agree that Couturier, and Schenn are well known for their defensive play and would most likely improve our pitiful PK?



Goals correlate strongly with wins. It's pretty simple. A team with 3-4-5 30 goal scorers would have to be pretty amazingly porous to not make the playoffs.

BTW, the Oilers were pretty pedestrian offensively last year, barely middle of the pack in GF IIRC.

The Oilers didnt have a lot of GF due to having no offensive defencemen. If they had a guy like Yandal they would have scored a ton more but unfortunately we just didnt get enough offence from the back end.(Direct correlation between good teams and bad is amount of points there d men get) With this deal your getting back a guy who has already scored 28 once and was on pace last year to score over 25+ goals. I think Simmonds easily replaces what we lost by moving Yakupov right now.

You know a good way to prevent goals? By having guys who can carry the play offensively.

Thats great if you have guys that can play like that every night but unfortunately in this league you have teams that will trap and force you to give up the puck and make mistakes. Try to play an uptempo game against the Blues or Kings(Two teams we need to beat to win a cup) and they'll just wait for you to make a bad turnover and capitalize on their chances. Offence can be shut down easily if you have a good defensive team that can win battles along the boards. What we need is good two way players who can shut you down but then capitalize on chances when they happen. I think Schenn and Simmonds both fit this mold.
Another thing not being talked about with the deal is the upgrade from Smid to Coburn which would be huge. Coburn can actually pass out of his zone which makes a big difference in the transition game.

raab is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 10:40 AM
  #93
Jimmi Jenkins
Always the Bards
 
Jimmi Jenkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,294
vCash: 612
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Classy Banana View Post
Forgetting the massive onesidedness of your deals, the Oilers don't have a 2nd round draft pick in 2014. They traded it to St. Louis.
Yes yes my mistake, and HOLY **** people, geez. You're treating this as if I'm suggesting Omark for Ovechkin or Pitlick for Vanek.

Give your heads a shake.

The Caps:
Holtby is the starter making less then the back up Neuvirth, they save money and get the same thing, a guy who occasionally plays, save to the tune of $1.5M

Erat $4.5M cap hit, 9gp, 3a, even and playing 10:53 per night. Having a bit of trouble finding icetime.

Add to the fact they lack depth on the back end of their blueline, it kinda makes sense they can same ****ing cap space and fill a bit of a need.


The Sabres:
Are going No Where, and Erhoff is locked up long term, so unless he wants the joy of sitting through the junk there, he might welcome Edmonton who will treat him as a team leader and are further along as a team.

Marincin is a very good NHL prospect. It's hardly like the Oilers are offering Alex Plante here. Jones is a salary cap victim, but Sabres get a depth upgrade and a guy they might beable to move later anyways.

So I'll re-do them slightly, Geez you people.

To WSH: Smid, Potter, Labarbra and 2014 3rd

To EDM: Erat and Neuvirth

(Washington gets a slightly lesser pick, but a better veteran defenseman)

To BUF: Marincin, Jones and 2014 1st

To EDM: Erhoff

(Buffalo gets a much better pick, but eats Jones as part of that)

Again, I'm not saying these are done deals, but for **** sakes, if you think I'm proposing deals where the Oilers are "Stealing" give your head a ****ing shake.

Jimmi Jenkins is online now  
Old
10-24-2013, 10:42 AM
  #94
Tw0Shoes
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Going into the rebuild, I heard a lot of people talk about how you can't be a true contender with out top end elite talent. And now, all of a sudden, third liners are the key. Pretty funny.

Anyway, we all agree that good teams have depth, the question is whether trading away top talent for depth players is a good idea. I can't think of any team that has done that and been successful as a result.
The Quebec Nordiques.

Tw0Shoes is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 10:52 AM
  #95
Moose Coleman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
Would you not agree that Couturier, and Schenn are well known for their defensive play and would most likely improve our pitiful PK?
Are they the only ones who could?

Quote:
The Oilers didnt have a lot of GF due to having no offensive defencemen. If they had a guy like Yandal they would have scored a ton more but unfortunately we just didnt get enough offence from the back end.(Direct correlation between good teams and bad is amount of points there d men get) With this deal your getting back a guy who has already scored 28 once and was on pace last year to score over 25+ goals. I think Simmonds easily replaces what we lost by moving Yakupov right now.
I'm not talking about the specifics of fantasy deals that won't ever happen, more the philosophy that underpins them, which IMO is driven by very short-term thinking.

Quote:
Thats great if you have guys that can play like that every night but unfortunately in this league you have teams that will trap and force you to give up the puck and make mistakes. Try to play an uptempo game against the Blues or Kings(Two teams we need to beat to win a cup) and they'll just wait for you to make a bad turnover and capitalize on their chances. Offence can be shut down easily if you have a good defensive team that can win battles along the boards. What we need is good two way players who can shut you down but then capitalize on chances when they happen. I think Schenn and Simmonds both fit this mold.
Is there some rule that says skilled players can't win puck battles? Or that a group of players with an average age of 21 will never improve in that capacity?

Moose Coleman is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 10:53 AM
  #96
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,107
vCash: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Going into the rebuild, I heard a lot of people talk about how you can't be a true contender with out top end elite talent. And now, all of a sudden, third liners are the key. Pretty funny.

Anyway, we all agree that good teams have depth, the question is whether trading away top talent for depth players is a good idea. I can't think of any team that has done that and been successful as a result.
Quebec Nordiques trade Eric Lindros for Kerry Huffman and Steve Duchesne, goalie Ron Hextall, forwards Mike Ricci, Chris Simon, and Peter Forsberg, draft picks and cash reportedly in the neighborhood of $10 million US.

Dallas stars acquire Joe Niewendyk sending Jarome Iginla and Corey Mollen to the Flames

raab is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 10:56 AM
  #97
Moose Coleman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tw0Shoes View Post
The Quebec Nordiques.
I assume you're referring to the Lindros trade, which brought back a guy who ended up being one of the best ever in Peter Forsberg (hardly a trade for depth). If Forsberg hadn't panned out, do you think they win that deal and a Cup?

Moose Coleman is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 10:58 AM
  #98
Moose Coleman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
Dallas stars acquire Joe Niewendyk sending Jarome Iginla and Corey Mollen to the Flames
Another trade that doesn't really fit the bill as Calgary had to trade Niewendyk, who was in the midst of a contract hod out.

Moose Coleman is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 11:04 AM
  #99
raab
Where's the Hart?
 
raab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,107
vCash: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Are they the only ones who could?



I'm not talking about the specifics of fantasy deals that won't ever happen, more the philosophy that underpins them, which IMO is driven by very short-term thinking.



Is there some rule that says skilled players can't win puck battles? Or that a group of players with an average age of 21 will never improve in that capacity?
This is the problem though! Do we have to wait until all these guys are 25 before we start winning games? Or should we move one(the youngest) and upgrade right now? It's not like we'd be adding a ton of age but Simmonds is 25 and going into his prime, Schenn is 22, Couturier is 20, Coburn is 28. We're adding two guys in their prime and the other guys will be hitting it sooner then Yakupov. The Nordiques traded 3 of their 1st overalls and won a cup so I don't think it's a bad strategy to follow.

raab is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 11:09 AM
  #100
Eskimo44
Registered User
 
Eskimo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,399
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tw0Shoes View Post
The Quebec Nordiques.
I assume you mean the Avalanche team that won the cup? Yeah they moved Nolan and Sundin (Lindros was a forced deal that they won by a mile, Forsberg alone was worth it) but they also acquired Patrick Roy, Ozolinsh, and Kamensky. For nearly every star they traded they got another one in return.

Eskimo44 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:36 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.