HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Coots: Sean Couturier

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-24-2013, 12:08 PM
  #76
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,422
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
How many centers out there have contained Crosby this year?
Back in the day Joel Otto was very important to Calgary as a shutdown center (particularly against Edmonton) and was very good at the faceoff circle. While Coots is not as physically strong as Otto and may never become as such, I will take a Joel Otto type career out of him any day...doubt he will be Sundin type b/c of skating limitations and size but that is what some people seem to want at age 20! Still time to maybe be in between an Otto and Sundin type player..or a Trevor Linden type


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 10-24-2013 at 12:23 PM.
FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 12:17 PM
  #77
chimrichalds18
the key
 
chimrichalds18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,769
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
How's that been working out for them?
Which part? The part where Couturier is a top defensive center or the part where the team's offense isn't working out?

chimrichalds18 is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 12:30 PM
  #78
tuckrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,557
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I think some people overrate Couturier's defensive acumen at this stage. Yes, he has been deployed against tough competition, but he hasn't really done that a great job against them. Sure, there have been a couple high profile performances against Malkin/Crosby but it's not like they've solved those guys with Coots...they still get over 1 pt per game against him and the Flyers.

People like to cite the quality of comeptition and zone starts as a point to justify their view of how good/great the kid is defensively, but when you look at the end result of this, it has been quite poor. The stat showing goals allowed against while Coots is on the ice has been poor and doesn't rank that favorably against other NHL forwards that also face solid competition...also his PK work is poor compared to others on the team and he's made some bad turnovers. It seems he's improved his faceoffs but was pretty weak last season. I think you have to question, as many have, the wisdom of such a strategy of using a 19/20 yr old kid in the way he's been used so far.

That said, I (still) advocate a patient approach with Coots. He's way too young to conclude he's a bust or a future Selke candidate for that matter. From what I see, he needs to improve his skating and be deployed in a way that better utlizes his offensive tools...he needs to mature into his frame and gain confidence, which is common for players of his age...in 2-3 years we should start seeing what the kid's really about...that can get sketchy in terms of his value in trade...right now he's still perceived to be valuable given his age/size/draft position etc., but that may not be the case if his game doesn't get traction in that time.
Did you read the breakdown of Malkin (Highest Even strength PPG since lockout) vs Couturier at even strength?

Couturier nullified Geno.

Also, lets wait until Giroux scores a goal before we get worried about Cooter's offense!

tuckrr is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 12:36 PM
  #79
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,913
vCash: 156
He also just upgraded and neutralized Crosby. So it's not like he just has one superstar's number.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 12:38 PM
  #80
Protest
C`est La Vie
 
Protest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Deptford, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 4,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He also just upgraded and neutralized Crosby. So it's not like he just has one superstar's number.
And he forced Torts to split up the Sedins.

Protest is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 12:45 PM
  #81
Jtown
Registered User
 
Jtown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fairfax, Virginia
Posts: 10,421
vCash: 539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He also just upgraded and neutralized Crosby. So it's not like he just has one superstar's number.
I was shocked by this.


I thought Crosby was going to kill Couturier and Malkin was going to destroy giroux but it worked out.

When i watched edmonton play Pitt, i saw bylsma constantly putting crosby and malkin out there against RNH. Everytime RNH was on the ice you could tell that was who pitt was targeting their matchups against. RNH has a real hard time against legit 1st line centers. He looks quite feeble against them. As much as RNH has a step on Couturier in terms of Offense what kind of advantage is it if teams are making him play defense against their top line stars? This is one of the reasons why i think RNH will have a hard time being a EV dominant force.

On the other hand I see teams avoiding putting their top stars on the ice when Couturier is out there.

Jtown is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 12:48 PM
  #82
FreshPerspective
We don't need one!
 
FreshPerspective's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,422
vCash: 500
And.....in NHL 14 Throwback Mode ..Couts totally neutralizes Gretzky and Mario...

FreshPerspective is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 01:17 PM
  #83
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
Which part? The part where Couturier is a top defensive center or the part where the team's offense isn't working out?
The part where the Flyers allow more goals against than the majority other teams in the league. Not that he's the reason, but if Coots was out there neutralizing top opposing players consistently, and being this "top defensive forward" in the league, I think the Flyers would be doing better in that department. It's one thing for the coach to deploy a player in tough situations and against top competition, it's another thing for the player to be successful at it. I know we've all seen the admirable efforts to thwart Malkin/Crosby in a couple of their games, but there are 28 other teams in the league where that hasn't necessarily the case. Bundy (Therien) seemed to be able to raise his game and keep Jagr in check..did this make him a Norris candidate? No. Again, look at the stats that show opposing teams' ability to score goals when Couturier is on the ice (even str and PK) versus others, even players that face tough competition...you'll find he grades out as kind of average and not this "top defensive forward" and/or "future Selke" type young player. I'm not saying Coots will never pan out...as I said, I advocate being patient because it's way too early to be making that kind of call, but I do think he's overrated in terms of where his game has been at for the past year or so, particularly on the defensive side...

fauxflex is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 01:30 PM
  #84
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,913
vCash: 156
The Flyers are allowing more goals against largely because they suck at maintaining offensive pressure. They spend a lot of games on defense, so goals will be going in. Once they can maintain the attack for more than 10-15 seconds at a time more than a couple times a game That will improve.

They're allowing, on average, 3 shots more per game than last year. It's not that the defense is of worse quality, it's that the other team just has the puck a lot more often.

Edit: If they were able to keep the puck themselves and were down at 28 SA/G again they would be looking at 9th in SA/G as opposed to 17th.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 10-24-2013 at 01:42 PM.
Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 01:48 PM
  #85
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Did you read the breakdown of Malkin (Highest Even strength PPG since lockout) vs Couturier at even strength?

Couturier nullified Geno.
Also, lets wait until Giroux scores a goal before we get worried about Cooter's offense!

I think all that nullifying Malkin talk is a bit overstated. Let's look at Malkin's production vs. the Flyers with and without Coots on the Flyers:

This season: 1 GP 1 pt

Last Season: 3GP 2 pts

11-12 (Couturier's 1st season):
Reg Season: 6GP 6 Pts
Playoffs: 6GP 8 pts

Coots era: 16GP 17 pts = 1.1 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------

10-11 (Before Coots):
Reg Season: 4GP 2 pts
Playoffs 4GP 4 pts

09-10:
Reg Season: 5GP 8 pts
(no playoff meeting)

08-09:
Reg Season: 6GP 7 pts
Playoffs: 6GP 9pts

Pre-Coots Era: 25 GP 30 pts = 1.2 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------------

So, net net, the difference in Malkin's production against the Flyers has been "nullified" by Couturier's presence to the tune of one tenth of a point per game! Give the kid the damn Selke!

fauxflex is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 01:50 PM
  #86
Psuhockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,861
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
The part where the Flyers allow more goals against than the majority other teams in the league. Not that he's the reason, but if Coots was out there neutralizing top opposing players consistently, and being this "top defensive forward" in the league, I think the Flyers would be doing better in that department.
You do know that there are other lines that play during the game. The other centers for the flyers are -5 and -4 respectively while Couturier is only -2 in a strictly defensive role where he isn't going to produce a lot of plus games.

Psuhockey is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 01:51 PM
  #87
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,913
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I think all that nullifying Malkin talk is a bit overstated. Let's look at Malkin's production vs. the Flyers with and without Coots on the Flyers:

This season: 1 GP 1 pt

Last Season: 3GP 2 pts

11-12 (Couturier's 1st season):
Reg Season: 6GP 6 Pts
Playoffs: 6GP 8 pts

Coots era: 16GP 17 pts = 1.1 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------

10-11 (Before Coots):
Reg Season: 4GP 2 pts
Playoffs 4GP 4 pts

09-10:
Reg Season: 5GP 8 pts
(no playoff meeting)

08-09:
Reg Season: 6GP 7 pts
Playoffs: 6GP 9pts

Pre-Coots Era: 25 GP 30 pts = 1.2 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------------

So, net net, the difference in Malkin's production against the Flyers has been "nullified" by Couturier's presence to the tune of one tenth of a point per game! Give the kid the damn Selke!
Almost all of Malkins points came when Couturier wasn't on the ice with him. When we've had last change and favorable matchups Malkin was a non factor thanks to Couturier.

Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:08 PM
  #88
Akanon
Registered User
 
Akanon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Country: Finland
Posts: 764
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Almost all of Malkins points came when Couturier wasn't on the ice with him. When we've had last change and favorable matchups Malkin was a non factor thanks to Couturier.
That's what some people have trouble understanding.

Akanon is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:10 PM
  #89
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,913
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akanon View Post
That's what some people have trouble understanding.
And before the Couts era we had a lot more solid defensive players. Now we don't have as many, so when Couts is off the ice Malkin has a higher chance of producing.

Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:17 PM
  #90
Protest
C`est La Vie
 
Protest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Deptford, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 4,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I think all that nullifying Malkin talk is a bit overstated. Let's look at Malkin's production vs. the Flyers with and without Coots on the Flyers:

This season: 1 GP 1 pt

Last Season: 3GP 2 pts

11-12 (Couturier's 1st season):
Reg Season: 6GP 6 Pts
Playoffs: 6GP 8 pts

Coots era: 16GP 17 pts = 1.1 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------

10-11 (Before Coots):
Reg Season: 4GP 2 pts
Playoffs 4GP 4 pts

09-10:
Reg Season: 5GP 8 pts
(no playoff meeting)

08-09:
Reg Season: 6GP 7 pts
Playoffs: 6GP 9pts

Pre-Coots Era: 25 GP 30 pts = 1.2 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------------

So, net net, the difference in Malkin's production against the Flyers has been "nullified" by Couturier's presence to the tune of one tenth of a point per game! Give the kid the damn Selke!
I'll try this again:

What they do against the rest of the team or on the PP is irrelevant when talking about Couturier's defense. He can't be held responsible for star players putting up points when the Flyers are down a man or when he's not on the ice.

Protest is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:17 PM
  #91
chimrichalds18
the key
 
chimrichalds18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,769
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I think all that nullifying Malkin talk is a bit overstated. Let's look at Malkin's production vs. the Flyers with and without Coots on the Flyers:

This season: 1 GP 1 pt

Last Season: 3GP 2 pts

11-12 (Couturier's 1st season):
Reg Season: 6GP 6 Pts
Playoffs: 6GP 8 pts

Coots era: 16GP 17 pts = 1.1 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------

10-11 (Before Coots):
Reg Season: 4GP 2 pts
Playoffs 4GP 4 pts

09-10:
Reg Season: 5GP 8 pts
(no playoff meeting)

08-09:
Reg Season: 6GP 7 pts
Playoffs: 6GP 9pts

Pre-Coots Era: 25 GP 30 pts = 1.2 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------------

So, net net, the difference in Malkin's production against the Flyers has been "nullified" by Couturier's presence to the tune of one tenth of a point per game! Give the kid the damn Selke!
2011-2012 (6 regular season, 6 postseason)

Malkin had 3G, 3A when Couturier was off the ice. He had 3 assists when Couturier was on the ice.

In the playoffs, he had 2 goals, 3 assists when Couturier was off the ice and 1 goal, 2 assists with Couturier on the ice.

2013 (4 regular season)

1 assist without Couturier, 1 goal, 1 assist with.

This year, Malkin got a goal and an assist, and Couturier wasn't on the ice.


Without Couturier:
17 GP, 6G, 8A

With Couturier:
17 GP, 2 G, 6A -- (2G, 2A on PP)

So in 17 games over the last 2+ seasons, Malkin has 4 EV assists going head to head against Couturier.

chimrichalds18 is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:20 PM
  #92
MP92
Catching flies
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,456
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I think all that nullifying Malkin talk is a bit overstated. Let's look at Malkin's production vs. the Flyers with and without Coots on the Flyers:

This season: 1 GP 1 pt

Last Season: 3GP 2 pts

11-12 (Couturier's 1st season):
Reg Season: 6GP 6 Pts
Playoffs: 6GP 8 pts

Coots era: 16GP 17 pts = 1.1 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------

10-11 (Before Coots):
Reg Season: 4GP 2 pts
Playoffs 4GP 4 pts

09-10:
Reg Season: 5GP 8 pts
(no playoff meeting)

08-09:
Reg Season: 6GP 7 pts
Playoffs: 6GP 9pts

Pre-Coots Era: 25 GP 30 pts = 1.2 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------------

So, net net, the difference in Malkin's production against the Flyers has been "nullified" by Couturier's presence to the tune of one tenth of a point per game! Give the kid the damn Selke!
Those point totals lack context. Look back on how many of those points came on the PP or when Sean wasn't on the ice.

MP92 is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:22 PM
  #93
MP92
Catching flies
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,456
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
2011-2012 (6 regular season, 6 postseason)

Malkin had 3G, 3A when Couturier was off the ice. He had 3 assists when Couturier was on the ice.

In the playoffs, he had 2 goals, 3 assists when Couturier was off the ice and 1 goal, 2 assists with Couturier on the ice.

2013 (4 regular season)

1 assist without Couturier, 1 goal, 1 assist with.

This year, Malkin got a goal and an assist, and Couturier wasn't on the ice.


Without Couturier:
17 GP, 6G, 8A

With Couturier:
17 GP, 2 G, 6A -- (2G, 2A on PP)

So in 17 games over the last 2+ seasons, Malkin has 4 EV assists going head to head against Couturier.
If that's not the definition of shutdown, I don't know what is.

MP92 is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:27 PM
  #94
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus
Almost all of Malkins points came when Couturier wasn't on the ice with him. When we've had last change and favorable matchups Malkin was a non factor thanks to Couturier.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Akanon View Post
That's what some people have trouble understanding.
OK ok, so he's a Malkin antidote, only in cases where we get last change/favorbale matchups...where has that been getting us really?

The stats (also) show that the team lets up a relatively high amount of goals against (es and pk) when Couturier is on the ice for him to be considered a top defensive forward in the NHL imo. The kid has potential and we've seen flashes, but he has a long way to go before justifying all the lofty talk imo.

fauxflex is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:32 PM
  #95
Protest
C`est La Vie
 
Protest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Deptford, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 4,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus
Almost all of Malkins points came when Couturier wasn't on the ice with him. When we've had last change and favorable matchups Malkin was a non factor thanks to Couturier.





OK ok, so he's a Malkin antidote, only in cases where we get last change/favorbale matchups...where has that been getting us really?
No, he said when we have last change we can matchup Couturier against the other teams top lines.

Couturier vs top line = the favorable matchup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
The stats (also) show that the team lets up a relatively high amount of goals against (es and pk) when Couturier is on the ice for him to be considered a top defensive forward in the NHL imo. The kid has potential and we've seen flashes, but he has a long way to go before justifying all the lofty talk imo.
What stats are these?

Protest is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:34 PM
  #96
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,913
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus
Almost all of Malkins points came when Couturier wasn't on the ice with him. When we've had last change and favorable matchups Malkin was a non factor thanks to Couturier.





OK ok, so he's a Malkin antidote, only in cases where we get last change/favorbale matchups...where has that been getting us really?

The stats (also) show that the team lets up a relatively high amount of goals against (es and pk) when Couturier is on the ice for him to be considered a top defensive forward in the NHL imo. The kid has potential and we've seen flashes, but he has a long way to go before justifying all the lofty talk imo.
What stats? All the stats we've reviewed countless times indicate the stars around the league produce at a markedly lower rate with Couturier on the ice, all while his line manages to move the puck down to the other end. I don't know what you mean about flashes, he has consistently been fantastic defensively.

And with this:

Quote:
OK ok, so he's a Malkin antidote, only in cases where we get last change/favorbale matchups...where has that been getting us really?
What, you mean besides shutting down a superstar player when he's on the ice with them? That seems pretty major to me. It's easier to win when guys like Malkin and Crosby can be silenced, is it not?

Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:38 PM
  #97
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I'll try this again:

What they do against the rest of the team or on the PP is irrelevant when talking about Couturier's defense. He can't be held responsible for star players putting up points when the Flyers are down a man or when he's not on the ice.
I'll try THIS again...look at Couturier's goals allowed while on ice (es and PK) when compared to other forwards who have faced similar competition, he grades toward middle of the pack type performance defensively. I have the numbers but can't get to them right now...will try to post them later.

fauxflex is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:42 PM
  #98
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,913
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I'll try THIS again...look at Couturier's goals allowed while on ice (es and PK) when compared to other forwards who have faced similar competition, he grades toward middle of the pack type performance defensively. I have the numbers but can't get to them right now...will try to post them later.
Do you think playing in front of a terrible goalie with a borderline sub- .900 save percentage for two seasons has skewed those numbers when compared to players in front of better goalies?

And the last time someone (Appleyard) did this analysis they came to a very different conclusion.

Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:47 PM
  #99
Jtown
Registered User
 
Jtown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fairfax, Virginia
Posts: 10,421
vCash: 539
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
If that's not the definition of shutdown, I don't know what is.
That is nasty right there. Give me that all day everyday. That is what wins games.

Jtown is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 02:54 PM
  #100
Protest
C`est La Vie
 
Protest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Deptford, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 4,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I'll try THIS again...look at Couturier's goals allowed while on ice (es and PK) when compared to other forwards who have faced similar competition, he grades toward middle of the pack type performance defensively. I have the numbers but can't get to them right now...will try to post them later.
If you compared our entire team to the rest of the league they'd all look similar. The common tie between our players is that they all had the same sub par goalie performance behind them.

When you list those players, and list the stats for them for more than one shortened season please, chances are the ones at the top will have good goalies.

Protest is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:25 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.