HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Coots: Sean Couturier

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-24-2013, 03:17 PM
  #101
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
The following was basically a response made (in June 2013) to that BSH article that prompted a lot of this kind of Couturier discussion last season..Meltzer was using it in a blog and I made some counterpoints in my response...there are a bunch of stats cited that may help you understand where I'm coming from on this...

--------

"The article was done early on in a shortened season, and thus, is a very small sample size.

They used Corsi Rel QoC as one of the primary backing statistics to support their premise of Couturier establishing himself as an "elite" defensive player because it indicates he goes up against top competition.

The article cited Couturier's ranking in this category as 18th in the NHL, however, the season ending rank for Couturier in this category was 62nd, which is a big difference...indicating that 61 forwards in the NHL faced tougher competiion (if you go by CorsiRelQoC).

Also, the fact that he may have faced solid competion does not, in itself, indicate he's high performing as a defensive forward...in other words, it may indicate the type of competition a player may face, but it doesn't indicate how they fared against them. I point
to Couturier's GA/ON60 (5v5) number, or goals scored against the team while he's on the ice (for 60 mins), which was 3.09, a very poor number that ranks him 383rd amongst all NHL forwards. Not exactly elite, even when you consider he faced the 61st toughest competition in the league.


Some other advanced (5v5) stats to chew on:

His Corsi On, meaning the differential of how many shots were taken by the opposition versus how many his own team took, while he was on the ice, was ranked 285th in the league (forwards only).

His Corsi Relative, indicates his Corsi while on the ice to his team's overall Corsi when he's off the ice. In this category Couturier ranked as the154th forward in the NHL.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltzer
Couturier's plus-minus rating at even strength took a steep downturn this year. However, when you look at actual meat-and-potatoes of the player's shifts on the ice, there were only a handful of opposition goals scored directly as a result of a turnover or blown coverage by Couturier. The mistakes usually happened elsewhere.

Well, there were still that "handful" of goals (in a shortened season) where Couturier was the primary culprit, and numerous other mistakes that, luckily, didn't end up in the back of the net. Not exactly the hallmark of young forward developing an elite defensive game.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltzer
Plus-minus numbers aside, Couturier's defensive development actually continued at a solid clip from his strong defensive rookie season. In plain English terms, here's why:

* He was the Flyers center most likely to be on the ice against other teams' top scoring lines, game in and game out.

Again, Couturier may have drawn the tougher assignments as the coach put him out there against top lines at times, but that tells us nothing about how he actually did against them. I know Coots seems to have a special thing with Malkin and really gets up to play him, but maybe Lavy playing the 20 yr old against the NHL's top players on a regular basis wasn't the greatest idea? Indeed, Couturier's GA/ON60 (5v5) number of 3.09 seems to indicate he fared quite poorly in defending against his (62nd toughest) competition.

From what I can tell, this indicates the premise of the BSH article, that Couturier is establishing himself as an elite defensive forward and the premise of Couturier being on track for "sustained defensive dominance", is off the mark. Yes, he's playing against some decent competition, but he's not doing particularly well in defending against them. Indeed, there are a substantial number of forwards in the league who had as high or higher CorsiRelQoC (indicating they faced as tough or tougher competition), but who also have significantly lower GA/ON60 (inidcating that less goals were allowed while the player was on the ice). There are probably 40+ forwards in the league who faced better competition (higher CorsiRelQoC) and did better against them (GA/ON60). Among the best in this differential are players like Pavel Datsyuk (ranks #1), David Backes, Boyd Gordon, Mike Fisher, Charlie Coyle, Josh Bailey, Alex Burrows, Patrick Sharp, Steve Ott, Anze Kopitar, Gabriel Landeskog, H Sedin, Logan Coture, Radim Vrbata. Pretty good company. Now looking at players further down the list, with a quotient of CorsiRelQoC and GA/ON60 similar to Couturier, and we see his defensive peers are players like Curtis Glencross, Jamie McGinn, Lee Stempniak, Jason Pominville, Marcel Goc, P.A. Parenteau, JVR, Anisimov, Tanguay, Brodziak, Fleischmann. Not exactly your Selke nominees/dominant defensive types.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltzer
Despite the disadvantageous zone starts, difficulty of opposition, Couturier's poor faceoff numbers and the Flyers' issues with getting the puck cleanly out of the defensive zone, the Flyers actually had more shot attempts and shots on goal than their opponents in Couturier's shifts.

That's interesting, and could point to some good things, but then again, there were more goals scored against the Flyers (per 60 min) when Couturier was on the ice, versus when he was off the ice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltzer
Although Couturier only started 32.1 percent of his shifts in the offensive zone (13th among Flyers forwards who played in 20 or more games), he finished in the offensive zone 44.7 percent of the time.

That's interesting but not too exciting...
Max Talbot had a 33% higher CorsiRelQoC and had a similar zone start/finish ratio... 35.2% offensive zone starts, finished in the offensive zone 46.3.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltzer
Giveaways and takeaways are a subjective stat, but it should be noted that Couturier's puck-protection and puck-pursuit numbers were quite good. He was charged with just 19 giveaways and credited with 26 takeaways. Considering that he was often in the defensive zone under heavy pressure and facing lengthy shifts, this ratio suggests both his poise and his skill at getting the puck away from the player he's checking.

Obviously you're going to have the opportunity to take away the puck from an opponent in the defensive zone a lot more than you would in the offensive zone, so given his high % of def zone starts, it's not surprising. Still, his takeaways were 2.14 (per 60), which ranks him about 60-70th forward in the NHL...ok, but not overly impressive.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltzer
Much of the time with Couturier on the ice, the Flyers were still able to get out of their defensive zone and push the puck to the other end of the ice. Yes, he was a minus-eight on the season but that was due to not having enough pluses rather than an actual downturn in his defensive play. Overall, Couturier is already the best defensive forward on the Flyers, and will only continue to improve in the years to come.

While basic plus/minus isn't always a good indicator, I don't know if you can simply discount the -8 due to not having the pluses...his GA/ON60 (goals against per 60 mins of icetime played) last season was MUCH better than this season, and, unlike plus minus, that doesn't depend on goals scored or pluses to calculate.

The bottom line as I see it, is the Couturier is a good player that is still very young, and has some nice upside potential. Having said that, I believe that many overrate his current level of play as well as his potential, thus overvaluing the player in talks of potential trades and the like. In particular, I think many fans tend to inflate his defensive acumen, to the point where "Selke" is associated with him in many discussions...(I wonder how many neutral observers have used that term in relation to him). I am not trying to say that Couturier will be a bust, or that he won't be a good, possibly very good two-way player someday, but I think it's prudent, as fans and within the organziation, to reel in the expectations somewhat and not project our hopes and hypes onto the young player, as this bias tends to distort reality and could be counter productive. I think a realistic expectation for Couturier's ceiling is 50+ point forward with a decent (not dominant) defensive game. Anything more, I believe, is largely based on hopeful speculation of Flyer fans. I'm as big a fan as anyone, but I'm trying to manage my expectations and keep things in perspective and not take his and other young players upside for granted. In my estimation, Coots has a looong way to go to fulfill his upside promise based on his current play, and there's certainly no guarantee he ever will.
I hope he does, as a Flyer...but there's that chance he doesn't...it's not like his play thus far has given definitive indications. That's why I'd be willing to trade Couturier in a deal for say, a Keith Yandle. While the former is a young player valued on mostly his youth, draft pedigree and potential, the latter is a player entering his prime who is valued on his proven ability to perform in the NHL...also considered is the premium required to acquire an upper echelon D man in trade is high. I would consider Schenn in the same category and would do a straight up deal for Yandle with him too....personally, I don't think the Yotes do it...they'd probably ask for a 1st rd'er and/or another good young prospect or roster player on top of Coots or Schenn...I'd be hesitant to go much beyond maybe a 2nd rd pick or B level prospect or 3rd/4th liner as a sweetener...perhaps if they'd take Meszaros or Coby that could work too...but I'm not giving both Coots sand Schenn or a package consisting of one of them plus other A level assets...if there's no deal to be made, on those terms, then so be it."


Last edited by fauxflex: 10-24-2013 at 03:22 PM.
fauxflex is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:20 PM
  #102
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
If you compared our entire team to the rest of the league they'd all look similar. The common tie between our players is that they all had the same sub par goalie performance behind them.

When you list those players, and list the stats for them for more than one shortened season please, chances are the ones at the top will have good goalies.

Not really...some players playing in front of that same "sub par" goaltending had better defensive and/or PK numbers...and not all players that faced similar QoC but better GA/ON60 were playing in front of (better) quality tenders.

fauxflex is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:23 PM
  #103
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,968
vCash: 156
Almost every player in the league was playing in front of a better goaltender. Even perennial punchline Dubnyk was superior to Bryz.

__________________
Down in the basement, I've got a Craftsman lathe. Show it to the children when they misbehave.
Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:29 PM
  #104
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,968
vCash: 156
And since I'm going to be stuck at work for the forseeable future with a decent amount of crap to do, I can't formulate a response now. I'll throw this here:

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...him-for-yandle

I've also noticed you haven't factored zone starts into your equation. Recall that Couturier started more in his own zone, against some very stiff competition, than almost every other player in the league.

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:30 PM
  #105
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Almost every player in the league was playing in front of a better goaltender. Even perennial punchline Dubnyk was superior to Bryz.
I'm not buying the "blame the goaltender" excuse as to why Couturier had a relatively high GA/ON 60. If he was playing so great defensively, the goalie wouldn't have to have come up big. Also, there were other players on the Flyers who, in some cases, had significantly better numbers playing in front of the same Goalie...look at the 4 VS 5 GA/ON 60 (PK) numbers...players like Talbot and Hall significantly outperformed Couturier.

fauxflex is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:32 PM
  #106
Clown Baby
Registered User
 
Clown Baby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,546
vCash: 500
Move to delete posters who refer to Couturier as "Couts".

Clown Baby is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:33 PM
  #107
Protest
C`est La Vie
 
Protest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Deptford, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 4,296
vCash: 500
1) You used stats from basically half a season. That is not a sufficient sample size.
2) You used some of those stats in ways they're not meant to be used.
3) You did not take into consideration quality of linemates.
4) He was 19 years old in those games, how many of the players you were comparing him to were 19 or really even close to 19?

Protest is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:33 PM
  #108
MP92
Catching flies
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,460
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Move to delete posters who refer to Couturier as "Couts".
It's better than ''Cooter''

MP92 is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:37 PM
  #109
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
And since I'm going to be stuck at work for the forseeable future with a decent amount of crap to do, I can't formulate a response now. I'll throw this here:

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...him-for-yandle
BSH...isn't that the same outfit that ran the "Flyers already have their Ryan Suter in Matt Carle" article, where it used advanced stats etc to show how Carle was every bit as good as Suter? I can't take a lot of their stuff seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus
I've also noticed you haven't f
actored zone starts into your equation. Recall that Couturier started more in his own zone, against some very stiff competition, than almost every other player in the league.
Actually, I did...Meltzer mentioned it and I responded:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltzer
Although Couturier only started 32.1 percent of his shifts in the offensive zone (13th among Flyers forwards who played in 20 or more games), he finished in the offensive zone 44.7 percent of the time.

That's interesting but not too exciting...
Max Talbot had a 33% higher CorsiRelQoC and had a similar zone start/finish ratio... 35.2% offensive zone starts, finished in the offensive zone 46.3.

Talbot for Selke!

fauxflex is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:39 PM
  #110
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,968
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I'm not buying the "blame the goaltender" excuse as to why Couturier had a relatively high GA/ON 60. If he was playing so great defensively, the goalie wouldn't have to have come up big. Also, there were other players on the Flyers who, in some cases, had significantly better numbers playing in front of the same Goalie...look at the 4 VS 5 GA/ON 60 (PK) numbers...players like Talbot and Hall significantly outperformed Couturier.
That's the thing, it's not about the goalie coming up big. It's about the goalie coming up small on routine shots, often. Which was an excruciating habit of Bryzgalov's.

In even strength last year Hall had much less ice time and that against weaker competition and Talbot was one of Couturier's linemates.

On the PK Couturier faced much harder competition than Hall.

Talbot was our strongest PKing forward.

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:39 PM
  #111
Clown Baby
Registered User
 
Clown Baby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
It's better than ''Cooter''
And dirt tastes better than hot garbage. What's your point?

Clown Baby is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:40 PM
  #112
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,968
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
BSH...isn't that the same outfit that ran the "Flyers already have their Ryan Suter in Matt Carle" article, where it used advanced stats etc to show how Carle was every bit as good as Suter? I can't take a lot of their stuff seriously.



Actually, I did...Meltzer mentioned it and I responded:




That's interesting but not too exciting...
Max Talbot had a 33% higher CorsiRelQoC and had a similar zone start/finish ratio... 35.2% offensive zone starts, finished in the offensive zone 46.3.

Talbot for Selke!
Talbot was Couturier's linemate. Think that helped him at all?

Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:45 PM
  #113
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Obviously people have their opinions...the bottom line for me is I think many Flyer fans overrate Couturier and are being a little premature with the annointing oil. This is not an uncommon thing, for fans to overrate their team's players...and I could be wrong...but I've been playing/watching hockey for 35 years and think I'm pretty objective about player eval. I don't have a bias against Coots or any player really...I like the kid and would love nothing more than or him to elevate his game and break out...but some of the potential trades discussed with Coots included them that people would refuse seem to vastly overrate his play and his potential. Yandle is a top pairing, high performing D man in his prime...yet lots of people wouldn't dare think of moving him for him or anything less than say, a Shea Weber or Alex Pietrangelo...I think that kind of thinking shows the bias/overrating.

fauxflex is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:45 PM
  #114
Curufinwe
Registered User
 
Curufinwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 7,711
vCash: 500
Yandle is not close defensively to a player like Weber, and Phoenix would demand a lot more than Couturier for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
1) You used stats from basically half a season. That is not a sufficient sample size.
Half a season where the main goalie was saving 90% of the shots he faced.


Last edited by Curufinwe: 10-24-2013 at 03:59 PM.
Curufinwe is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:46 PM
  #115
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Talbot was Couturier's linemate. Think that helped him at all?
Or was it Talbot helping Couturier? Why were Talbot's PK numbers significantly better?

fauxflex is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:49 PM
  #116
Curufinwe
Registered User
 
Curufinwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 7,711
vCash: 500
Watching hockey for 35 years but thinks Couturier's poor defensive play meant Bryzgalov was asked to come up big.

Curufinwe is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:51 PM
  #117
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Beefitor
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 37,968
vCash: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Obviously people have their opinions...the bottom line for me is I think many Flyer fans overrate Couturier and are being a little premature with the annointing oil. This is not an uncommon thing, for fans to overrate their team's players...and I could be wrong...but I've been playing/watching hockey for 35 years and think I'm pretty objective about player eval. I don't have a bias against Coots or any player really...I like the kid and would love nothing more than or him to elevate his game and break out...but some of the potential trades discussed with Coots included them that people would refuse seem to vastly overrate his play and his potential. Yandle is a top pairing, high performing D man in his prime...yet lots of people wouldn't dare think of moving him for anything less than say, a Shea Weber or Alex Pietrangelo...I think that kind of thinking shows the bias/overrating.
Yandle? You mean the Yandle who was the most sheltered Dman on Phoenix last year?

I'm not sold on him yet.

I rarely get hyped up for players. In the last few years, it's pretty much just been Giroux, and now Couturier. I don't get excited for players easily because more often than not they disappoint.

By December of his rookie year when he was rocking a 0.98 GA/ON 60 (In front of a goaltending debacle, with Pronger down) while facing very hard competition, and before Lavi had destroyed his offensive confidence, he showed incredible promise as an 18 year old. Based on his continued defensive play and the the fact that he's only 20, I don't see any reason to scuttle the anticipation yet.

Edit: I haven't watched him play yet, but per his stats he's looking pretty sheltered again, and his performance doesn't look all that great defensively. Decent offensively, but again, against seemingly sheltered competition. For the double disclaimer, I haven't seen him though so I can't say certainly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Or was it Talbot helping Couturier? Why were Talbot's PK numbers significantly better?
Considering Talbot played 11 games less than Couturier I'd say it's Couturier, otherwise Couturier's numbers would have taken a sizeable drop in a shortened season if he were relying on Talbot. He played nearly 25% of his games without Talbot.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 10-24-2013 at 03:59 PM.
Beef Invictus is online now  
Old
10-24-2013, 03:56 PM
  #118
Clown Baby
Registered User
 
Clown Baby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Or was it Talbot helping Couturier? Why were Talbot's PK numbers significantly better?
35 years and you can't differentiate between PK and ES play (and after Umberger to boot)...


Clown Baby is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 06:23 PM
  #119
tuckrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,557
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
It's better than ''Cooter''
Umm nothing is better than cooter

tuckrr is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 06:24 PM
  #120
Appleyard
Registered User
 
Appleyard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Manc/Shef/Utrecht
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 5,699
vCash: 165
You taking the QoC and Zone starts separately and then comparing them (Corsi On, Corsi) is frankly statistically irrelevant... as you are comparing guys with high QoC and easy starts and guys with hard starts and low QoC with someone near the top of both.

Coots had the 7th worst Off zone starts in the NHL. (among forwards.)

Coots had the 11th best QoC (Corsi) in the NHL.

So if we use QoC Corsi and OZ starts.

He was one of only 2 players in the top 30 in both categories to have positive CORSI.

5 players who started under 40% in their own zone were positive in CORSI, out of 21.

His zone start-finish ratio was 6th in the entire NHL.

5 Players in the top 30 OZ starts had positive CORSI on...

No-one in the top 30 on OZ starts and QoC (Corsi) had positive CORSI on...

Couts had the best CORSI on of any player in the top 30 of both lists...

Coots had the 44th best QoC (Corsi relative) in the NHL.

So if we use CORSI (QoC) and OZ starts (top 50 in both)

David Moss, Pascal Dupuis, David Backes and Boyd Gordon were the only three in the top 50 in both lists with a positive CORSI on, Couts is 6th on this list, there are only 2 other centres in the NHL ahead of him.


So saying he is not performing as well as those with similar minutes is pretty ill founded.


Players he outperformed defensively with 'similar' minutes (top 50 in both lists) (using either QoC and CORSI on and Corsi)

Jay McClement
Vernon Fiddler
Brandon Sutter
David Legwand
Cal Clutterbuck
Steve Ott
Brendan Morrow
Mikhail Grabovski
Frans Nielsen
Paul Stasny
Tyler Bozak


Last edited by Appleyard: 10-24-2013 at 06:39 PM.
Appleyard is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 06:27 PM
  #121
tuckrr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,557
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I think all that nullifying Malkin talk is a bit overstated. Let's look at Malkin's production vs. the Flyers with and without Coots on the Flyers:

This season: 1 GP 1 pt

Last Season: 3GP 2 pts

11-12 (Couturier's 1st season):
Reg Season: 6GP 6 Pts
Playoffs: 6GP 8 pts

Coots era: 16GP 17 pts = 1.1 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------

10-11 (Before Coots):
Reg Season: 4GP 2 pts
Playoffs 4GP 4 pts

09-10:
Reg Season: 5GP 8 pts
(no playoff meeting)

08-09:
Reg Season: 6GP 7 pts
Playoffs: 6GP 9pts

Pre-Coots Era: 25 GP 30 pts = 1.2 pts per game

-------------------------------------------------------

So, net net, the difference in Malkin's production against the Flyers has been "nullified" by Couturier's presence to the tune of one tenth of a point per game! Give the kid the damn Selke!
For your enjoyment:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1175395

tuckrr is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 07:29 PM
  #122
PALE PWNR
Registered User
 
PALE PWNR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 4,073
vCash: 1050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Move to delete posters who refer to Couturier as "Couts".
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
It's better than ''Cooter''
Move to delete them too. What awful, awful nicknames

PALE PWNR is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 08:19 PM
  #123
1865
Registered User
 
1865's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chester, UK
Country: England
Posts: 9,190
vCash: 50
He's 20 and already more than competent in his role. No worries here.

1865 is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 09:21 PM
  #124
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
1) You used stats from basically half a season. That is not a sufficient sample size.
That BSH article that touts Couturier as an elite defensive forward that Meltzer based his piece on and which is often cited in these discussions, was done in February during a season that began in January. The numbers I ran, at least included the whole 48 game season. To your point though, in such a young player there's liable to be ups and downs in the development curve, so really, any sample size we have thus far isn't necessarily suffcient to make hard conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest
2) You used some of those stats in ways they're not meant to be used.
Who says? What, are you the stat police? I can use them any way I wish and believe I did so in a relevant and meaningful fashion. You don't have to subscribe to it if you don't want to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest
3) You did not take into consideration quality of linemates.
The numbers I'm looking at here are defensive oriented...the players he's been put with are some of the team's better defensive forwards...I don't see where his linemates are the weak defensive links, especially when you see players like Talbot and Hall outperform him on the PK, a part of the game that requires, above all, defensive acumen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest
4) He was 19 years old in those games, how many of the players you were comparing him to were 19 or really even close to 19?
Well, there's a couple of others, and certainly it's rare that someone of that age to come in an make an impact like Couturier had in his first season. I think it's been a struggle since, and I don't currently see him as a "top defensive forward" or shutdown center just yet...I see flashes of it, here and there, but also long stretches of so-so play. Surely, the team's overall struggles have not helped. Hopefully he and the other young guys are learning valuable lessons that will pay dividends down the road.

I'll say again that I like Couturier, I just think it's way too early to fluff the kid up and have all these expectations and labels of "top defensive forward" and/or "Selke level defense"...that kind of thinking can be counterproductive. I'd like to see the Flyers be patient with him, work on his skating and his game, let him fill out his lanky frame, and gain confidence...then I think we'll know what his game is really about.

fauxflex is offline  
Old
10-24-2013, 09:38 PM
  #125
fauxflex
Registered User
 
fauxflex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Nice! Malkin still produced though even though Couturier did do a good job on him, especially of frustrating him, in more of a pest like way, I think, as opposed to using defensive tools per se. Sort of like Bundy on Jagr back in the day.

Anyway, I'm not denying he's shown flashes and apparently gets up to play against the Pens, but I think some have gotten carried away with their opinion of his overall(defensive) game. Last year's performance made that rookie season look like an anomaly...but at his age, you have to be willing to take the ups and downs, not get too high or low on him, and see how he comes along in the next few years...that's how I'm looking at it with young Couturier.

edit: But I would likely, at this point, be inclined to trade Couturier for a Keith Yandle or better type player (a youngish, established top-pairing type) if such became available, and I know some of the Couturier proponents wouldn't even consider it. I mean, I think he's got good upside, but not so much that it would/should preclude such a deal (imo).


Last edited by fauxflex: 10-24-2013 at 09:49 PM.
fauxflex is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:39 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.