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Jean Beliveau vs. Bobby Hull

View Poll Results: Jean Beliveau or Bobby Hull?
Hull 54 40.00%
Beliveau 81 60.00%
Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-24-2013, 02:51 PM
  #176
Canadiens1958
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No Regrets, No absurdities.

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Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
So we are to believe the Canadien's management ended up regretting bringing up Ferguson to adopt the role of policeman and that his fighting ability/toughness was actually a liability to the team because it led to his teammates being penalized?

I have to confess this discussion with you guys is getting more and more enjoyable as your position becomes more and more absurd
Canadiens never regreted bringing up John Ferguson.

The issue is simply appreciating how he was used in different circumstances and the risks and consequences involved with each usage. The choices made by Toe Blake as coach and Sam Pollock as GM were clearly explained to you.

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10-24-2013, 06:09 PM
  #177
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The Numbers

Further to the issue of John Ferguson and his role on the Canadiens.

The following link gives the linemate scoring for Jean Beliveau.

Link is not readily available to all. Will provide om request via other threads. Key points follow.


John Ferguson played 503 RS games while Gilles Tremblay played 509, both over 8 seasons. Yet, Gilles Tremblay, 155 points, handily outscores John Ferguson, 66 points, as a Jean Beliveau linemate. Overall in John Ferguson scored 303 NHL points, while Gilles Tremblay scored 330 NHL points during the regular season.

Rather telling.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 10-24-2013 at 09:04 PM. Reason: link issues
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Old
10-26-2013, 07:56 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Sadly for your point that does not apply since the "Third Man in Rule" was instituted in 1977 well after Beliveau, Ferguson and other concerned players retired.
My point is not about the 3rd man in "rule", it is that players who pair off and hold each other at bay, when a fight breaks out, without fighting themselves, are not penalized. I'm not saying Beliveau was a wimp, and i think you are over reacting to what you think is my insinuation to that effect. Beliveau had a lot more grit than a Gretzky or a Bossy, but he was not a feared tough guy. He had 13 fights in his career and 3 after Ferguson joined the team. The idea that he was spending too much time in the penalty box coming to the aid of John Ferguson is ludicrous.

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10-26-2013, 08:04 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Canadiens never regreted bringing up John Ferguson.

The issue is simply appreciating how he was used in different circumstances and the risks and consequences involved with each usage. The choices made by Toe Blake as coach and Sam Pollock as GM were clearly explained to you.
Please explain some of the circumstances he was used in. Did they have at least something to do with protecting certain players on his team or retaliating against those who took liberties with his teamates?

Or is that too much of a stretch?

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10-26-2013, 08:09 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Further to the issue of John Ferguson and his role on the Canadiens.

The following link gives the linemate scoring for Jean Beliveau.

Link is not readily available to all. Will provide om request via other threads. Key points follow.


John Ferguson played 503 RS games while Gilles Tremblay played 509, both over 8 seasons. Yet, Gilles Tremblay, 155 points, handily outscores John Ferguson, 66 points, as a Jean Beliveau linemate. Overall in John Ferguson scored 303 NHL points, while Gilles Tremblay scored 330 NHL points during the regular season.

Rather telling.
Telling what? That maybe Ferguson was more intent on protecting his linemates than scoring? Oh, what a minute - where would he have gotten that mistaken idea about what his main role on the team was?

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10-27-2013, 05:42 PM
  #181
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Jean Beliveau. He wasn't the greatest player of all-time but he had no flaws in his game. He was a superstar on and off the ice and was loaded with intangibles. He also made his teammates better and played a more important position than Hull. Both were amazing legends but the nod goes to Beliveau.

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10-27-2013, 10:28 PM
  #182
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Tried to keep an open mind on this- but looked at Bobby Hull's season-stats during what pretty much figured to amount to his young prime:

1959-60: led league in scoring.
1960-61: didn't crack the top five.
1961-62: led league in scoring.
1962-63: didn't crack the top five.

Must have been freaking frustrating as a fan. Was he working through maturity-issues at the time? Now, you can't exactly call 60-61 & 62-63 wasted years (especially since 60-61 was The Cup Year)- but this looks like high-order inconsistency- yet virtually no-one holds it against Hull's memory.

Rather have the guy who, in his prime, was pretty much assured of being in the top-three in scoring (unless suffering from significant time-loss, e.g.: 57-58) than someone who might lead the league in scoring, but underperform/disappoint the following year.

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10-28-2013, 02:00 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiTownPhilly View Post
Tried to keep an open mind on this- but looked at Bobby Hull's season-stats during what pretty much figured to amount to his young prime:

1959-60: led league in scoring.
1960-61: didn't crack the top five.
1961-62: led league in scoring.
1962-63: didn't crack the top five.

Must have been freaking frustrating as a fan. Was he working through maturity-issues at the time? Now, you can't exactly call 60-61 & 62-63 wasted years (especially since 60-61 was The Cup Year)- but this looks like high-order inconsistency- yet virtually no-one holds it against Hull's memory.

Rather have the guy who, in his prime, was pretty much assured of being in the top-three in scoring (unless suffering from significant time-loss, e.g.: 57-58) than someone who might lead the league in scoring, but underperform/disappoint the following year.
Injuries. Bobby Hull was known for keeping himself in the lineup regardless of injuries. Was playing with a knee injury in 60-61. Not sure what his injury was in 62-63 but he missed 5 games so it must have been serious.Later in his career played with a broken jaw and other injuries.

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Old
10-28-2013, 02:53 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Injuries. Bobby Hull was known for keeping himself in the lineup regardless of injuries... Later in his career played with a broken jaw and other injuries.
Indeed. And that infamous incident when arch nemesis John Ferguson of Montreal tried to rip off the helmet & face guard Hull was wearing during recovery, the hometown Habs fans appalled, loudly booing Fergie for his unsportsmanlike conduct....

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Old
11-15-2013, 06:44 PM
  #185
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If Bobby would played his entire career in the NHL, he would be getting a lot more credit, add 200 goals and 150 assists min to his NHL totals and I don't think as many would dispute Hull, however 2 of the best to ever play regardless, ....

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