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Coots: Sean Couturier

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Old
10-24-2013, 09:49 PM
  #126
sg12lw
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there are a ton of players that can do what couts is doing right now. im sorry, i know this is pretty much his fan club here, but a checking line center who cant skate, isnt that great on faceoffs, and doesnt provide a hint of offense? they are all over the place

i dont care what you say about his competition, his linemates, his age, his confidence blah blah blah....unless he finds about 2-3 steps, he will NEVER be a productive offensive player. he is too slow....and i truly believe he has more than enough offensive skill and smarts to be a point producer....but he cant skate.

...and my concern with him is that i dont see anyway that he "catches up" to everyone else....for every off season he gains a half step, so does everyone else. he is fine once he gets going. but his first 3 steps are embarrassingly bad.

but my biggest frustration with him right now is turnovers. happened all last year, and is happening again this year. for a guy who is supposed to be a defensive specialist he turns the puck over an awful lot in his own end. i am beyond sick of it. i was in love with this kid his rookie year and so excited for him, and he has gradually made his way onto my **** list. figure it out sean

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10-24-2013, 10:17 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by sg12lw View Post
there are a ton of players that can do what couts is doing right now. im sorry, i know this is pretty much his fan club here, but a checking line center who cant skate, isnt that great on faceoffs, and doesnt provide a hint of offense? they are all over the place

i dont care what you say about his competition, his linemates, his age, his confidence blah blah blah....unless he finds about 2-3 steps, he will NEVER be a productive offensive player. he is too slow....and i truly believe he has more than enough offensive skill and smarts to be a point producer....but he cant skate.

...and my concern with him is that i dont see anyway that he "catches up" to everyone else....for every off season he gains a half step, so does everyone else. he is fine once he gets going. but his first 3 steps are embarrassingly bad.

but my biggest frustration with him right now is turnovers. happened all last year, and is happening again this year. for a guy who is supposed to be a defensive specialist he turns the puck over an awful lot in his own end. i am beyond sick of it. i was in love with this kid his rookie year and so excited for him, and he has gradually made his way onto my **** list. figure it out sean
I know this may seem like a "blah blah blah" response, but, you speak of him like he is a 28 year old that just hasnt put it together (cough Coburn) he is 20. Twenty. Two-Zero. I feel like for some reason that has to be stressed because according to you its just another ******** excuse.

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10-24-2013, 11:33 PM
  #128
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I know this may seem like a "blah blah blah" response, but, you speak of him like he is a 28 year old that just hasnt put it together (cough Coburn) he is 20. Twenty. Two-Zero. I feel like for some reason that has to be stressed because according to you its just another ******** excuse.
I realize that he is 20 and I am not suggesting they get rid of him, but do you really think that he is going to become a significantly faster or better skater (more so than most of the other players in the league) in the next couple of years?

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10-24-2013, 11:39 PM
  #129
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I realize that he is 20 and I am not suggesting they get rid of him, but do you really think that he is going to become a significantly faster or better skater (more so than most of the other players in the league) in the next couple of years?
He has improved his skating and speed significantly this year. Are you blind? Also the the physical development one goes through before the age of 25 is quite significant.

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10-24-2013, 11:47 PM
  #130
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He has also been pretty damn good in the faceoff circle.

The only thing that has suffered is his offensive production, but then again most of our team has.


Last edited by StandingCow: 10-25-2013 at 02:32 AM.
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10-24-2013, 11:59 PM
  #131
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Nice! Malkin still produced though even though Couturier did do a good job on him, especially of frustrating him, in more of a pest like way, I think, as opposed to using defensive tools per se. Sort of like Bundy on Jagr back in the day.

Anyway, I'm not denying he's shown flashes and apparently gets up to play against the Pens, but I think some have gotten carried away with their opinion of his overall(defensive) game. Last year's performance made that rookie season look like an anomaly...but at his age, you have to be willing to take the ups and downs, not get too high or low on him, and see how he comes along in the next few years...that's how I'm looking at it with young Couturier.

edit: But I would likely, at this point, be inclined to trade Couturier for a Keith Yandle or better type player (a youngish, established top-pairing type) if such became available, and I know some of the Couturier proponents wouldn't even consider it. I mean, I think he's got good upside, but not so much that it would/should preclude such a deal (imo).
Let me try and understand what you're saying:
Malkin still produced points against the flyers, while Couturier was on the bench.

Malkin produced points against the flyers while Richards was here.

Ergo Malkin's production in 2012 against the flyers shows that Richards had a bad year in LA

Did I get that right?

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10-25-2013, 12:30 AM
  #132
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He has improved his skating and speed significantly this year. Are you blind? Also the the physical development one goes through before the age of 25 is quite significant.
With that reasoning we just have to wait 5 years before he becomes an average to above average skater. I think the physical development up to age 25 will come more in the form of strength on the puck and physicality and less skating speed.

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10-25-2013, 12:41 AM
  #133
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Couturier's skating does look a little better this year but he's still slow as hell.

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Old
10-25-2013, 07:06 AM
  #134
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I realize that he is 20 and I am not suggesting they get rid of him, but do you really think that he is going to become a significantly faster or better skater (more so than most of the other players in the league) in the next couple of years?
Couturier only needs to become a league average skater. He had great puck possession skills in juniors, and that will return when he fills out. He has an excellent hockey IQ, and excellent defensive instincts and awareness. He also has a very nice wrist shot, and good vision.

As of now his skating will hold his offense back because he can't create much on a rush, and because our offense is getting 0 puck possession time. Putting him on the PP is a good idea because otherwise he won't get much work in the offensive zone due to his assignments and the physical limitations of his 20 year old body.

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10-25-2013, 07:20 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by sg12lw View Post
there are a ton of players that can do what couts is doing right now. im sorry, i know this is pretty much his fan club here, but a checking line center who cant skate, isnt that great on faceoffs, and doesnt provide a hint of offense? they are all over the place

i dont care what you say about his competition, his linemates, his age, his confidence blah blah blah....unless he finds about 2-3 steps, he will NEVER be a productive offensive player. he is too slow....and i truly believe he has more than enough offensive skill and smarts to be a point producer....but he cant skate.

...and my concern with him is that i dont see anyway that he "catches up" to everyone else....for every off season he gains a half step, so does everyone else. he is fine once he gets going. but his first 3 steps are embarrassingly bad.

but my biggest frustration with him right now is turnovers. happened all last year, and is happening again this year. for a guy who is supposed to be a defensive specialist he turns the puck over an awful lot in his own end. i am beyond sick of it. i was in love with this kid his rookie year and so excited for him, and he has gradually made his way onto my **** list. figure it out sean
First, who are these players? Are they 20 years old? Also, his faceoff skills look like they're improving, something that's supposed to happen after having several years in the league.

Lets get something straight right off the bat. He has no right being in the NHL right now. His skating isn't ready, his body is not ready, and yet here he is in his 3rd season.

Do you know why?

Because he is insanely good defensively for his age, insanely good. Better than Richards was, better than Carter was by far. He has no right being the defensively player he is right now. He's not nearly as strong or fast as any of the player he goes against, and yet every night he gets sent back out there and does his job.

Do you know why defenseman peak later and stay in the prime longer than forwards? Because the defensive side of the game is about what is between your ears. It's about your experience, your instincts, your understanding of how the game works, and your ability to read the play and know where to be and when to be there.

Guys don't usually come around to being really good defensive players until their mid to late 20's, and Couturier was there at 18. If defense was as apparent as scoring a goal you all would understand why some of us love the fact that we have this kid.

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10-25-2013, 07:32 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Couturier only needs to become a league average skater. He had great puck possession skills in juniors, and that will return when he fills out. He has an excellent hockey IQ, and excellent defensive instincts and awareness. He also has a very nice wrist shot, and good vision.

As of now his skating will hold his offense back because he can't create much on a rush, and because our offense is getting 0 puck possession time. Putting him on the PP is a good idea because otherwise he won't get much work in the offensive zone due to his assignments and the physical limitations of his 20 year old body.
His skating is not a strength, but his main issue for me is he stops moving his feet too often to battle for pucks, especially on the forecheck.

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10-25-2013, 07:35 AM
  #137
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That BSH article that touts Couturier as an elite defensive forward that Meltzer based his piece on and which is often cited in these discussions, was done in February during a season that began in January. The numbers I ran, at least included the whole 48 game season. To your point though, in such a young player there's liable to be ups and downs in the development curve, so really, any sample size we have thus far isn't necessarily suffcient to make hard conclusions.



Who says? What, are you the stat police? I can use them any way I wish and believe I did so in a relevant and meaningful fashion. You don't have to subscribe to it if you don't want to do so.



The numbers I'm looking at here are defensive oriented...the players he's been put with are some of the team's better defensive forwards...I don't see where his linemates are the weak defensive links, especially when you see players like Talbot and Hall outperform him on the PK, a part of the game that requires, above all, defensive acumen.



Well, there's a couple of others, and certainly it's rare that someone of that age to come in an make an impact like Couturier had in his first season. I think it's been a struggle since, and I don't currently see him as a "top defensive forward" or shutdown center just yet...I see flashes of it, here and there, but also long stretches of so-so play. Surely, the team's overall struggles have not helped. Hopefully he and the other young guys are learning valuable lessons that will pay dividends down the road.

I'll say again that I like Couturier, I just think it's way too early to fluff the kid up and have all these expectations and labels of "top defensive forward" and/or "Selke level defense"...that kind of thinking can be counterproductive. I'd like to see the Flyers be patient with him, work on his skating and his game, let him fill out his lanky frame, and gain confidence...then I think we'll know what his game is really about.
1) I said nothing of the BSH article. If you're going to talk about a player you need use a relevant sample size, usually around 3 years. He's got just under 2 years experience, so the best we can do is use all his games, not a 48 game section of it.

2) You can use stats anyway you want but it does not make you right, and it does not make them relevant. Appleyard showed one of the flaws in how you used the stats. You also can't compare GA/60 across teams without putting it into context of overall team defense and goaltending. You compare GA/60 to the players teammates, otherwise it can be misleading. IE I can probably find a year when say Malkin had a better number than Kesler. Also you're comparing centers and wingers, and their defensive responsibilities are not the same.

3) I was not talking solely about his linemates, but the linemates of everyone you compared him to.

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10-25-2013, 08:01 AM
  #138
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People are upset that a 20 year old who

hasn't even played two full seasons
has been relegated to 3rd and 4th line duty
plays with checking-line/sub-par offensive teammates
matches up against the hardest competition daily
has shown improvement in faceoffs and skating
and is already a top defensive player...

isn't putting up top offensive numbers -- or even very good offensive numbers -- when it's been shown (Appleyard, etc) that people in his position don't have that sort of production.

No wonder we have a bad reputation as fans. And no wonder impatience and Flyers are synonymous.
Agreed 100% great post, you win cups with guys like Couts, I'm going go out on a limb here and say in 2-3 years everyone on here is going to love him like they did Brind'Amour

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10-25-2013, 08:27 AM
  #139
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While I do feel that Couturier's skating is not where it needs to be it has gotten better since last season. I think his biggest problem is not moving his feet. He seems to stop skating all together when he gets the puck on his stick. I don't know if it is a confidence problem, but if he can learn to just keep skating when he gets the puck, I think his offensive game will start to increase.

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10-25-2013, 08:28 AM
  #140
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It's seems like Couturier is the new whipping boy which is very odd to me. He is the cheapest top 9 forward on the team for the next few years. Why not go after B. Schenn who makes almost double, doesn't backcheck, and has flubbed more golden chances than anybody else on this team?

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10-25-2013, 08:28 AM
  #141
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Couturier only needs to become a league average skater. He had great puck possession skills in juniors, and that will return when he fills out. He has an excellent hockey IQ, and excellent defensive instincts and awareness. He also has a very nice wrist shot, and good vision.

As of now his skating will hold his offense back because he can't create much on a rush, and because our offense is getting 0 puck possession time. Putting him on the PP is a good idea because otherwise he won't get much work in the offensive zone due to his assignments and the physical limitations of his 20 year old body.
I agree with this. The problem is there are some who have ideas that Coots will become a great skating offensive dynamo. It is possible that he will, but I donít think that will be the case. As you have said, this kidís strength is his hockey IQ, excellent defensive instincts and awareness, not his skating. That is why he is playing on the checking line, not because the Flyers are trying to ease him into a 1C or 2C role. Fact is, if this team remains as it is for the most part (never guaranteed with Holmgren), Coots will probably always remain in this role as we have a number of better skating, offensively gifted centers that do not have the defensive ability and defensive anticipation that this kid possesses.

Some think that as a result, we wasted a #8 pick on him. I do not agree with this sentiment. The shutdown center role is perhaps the hardest one to play and though there may be a ton of others in the NHL that are in this role, how many of them have shown the same level of success in that role (i.e. shutting down Malkin, etcÖ)? Once you have that question answered, determine how many of them have had this level of success as a rookie teenager? I am guessing that the number is exceedingly small. Itís not a fluke that Coots name comes up on the Trades board a lot as others understand the importance of this type of player for a teamís overall success.

I am happy with a #8 pick that may turn out to be a perennial Selke candidate. I also agree that putting him on one of the PP units will give him some more offensive experience.

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10-25-2013, 09:07 AM
  #142
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It's seems like Couturier is the new whipping boy which is very odd to me. He is the cheapest top 9 forward on the team for the next few years. Why not go after B. Schenn who makes almost double, doesn't backcheck, and has flubbed more golden chances than anybody else on this team?
Schenn doesn't get massively overrated by this fan base like Couturier does.

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10-25-2013, 09:40 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by sg12lw View Post
there are a ton of players that can do what couts is doing right now. im sorry, i know this is pretty much his fan club here, but a checking line center who cant skate, isnt that great on faceoffs, and doesnt provide a hint of offense? they are all over the place

i dont care what you say about his competition, his linemates, his age, his confidence blah blah blah....unless he finds about 2-3 steps, he will NEVER be a productive offensive player. he is too slow....and i truly believe he has more than enough offensive skill and smarts to be a point producer....but he cant skate.

...and my concern with him is that i dont see anyway that he "catches up" to everyone else....for every off season he gains a half step, so does everyone else. he is fine once he gets going. but his first 3 steps are embarrassingly bad.

but my biggest frustration with him right now is turnovers. happened all last year, and is happening again this year. for a guy who is supposed to be a defensive specialist he turns the puck over an awful lot in his own end. i am beyond sick of it. i was in love with this kid his rookie year and so excited for him, and he has gradually made his way onto my **** list. figure it out sean
You are completely right. I'm getting sick of hearing the "age" thing. You either can skate and have hands or you don't. Couturier doesn't. If he hasn't improved in these areas during the last 2 offseasons, chances are he never will. The Flyers have made him a 3rd line "defensive" center and that's all he'll amount to because he either doesn't want to improve in other areas or he just can't. And, like you said, players of his ilk can be found in later rounds or acquired for a 3rd round pick.

The mystique with Couturier is that he was a former "potential 1st overall pick" and he had ONE very good playoff round getting under the skin of Geno Malkin. Outside of those, he's done nothing to warrant the hype. The Flyers missed their chance to sell high on him when Laughton made him expendable. Shame on Holmgren.... another fail.

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10-25-2013, 09:42 AM
  #144
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Agreed 100% great post, you win cups with guys like Couts, I'm going go out on a limb here and say in 2-3 years everyone on here is going to love him like they did Brind'Amour
You're out of your mind and obviously don't remember Brind'Amour as a Flyer. The guy was a ball of energy, had good offensive skills, hit like a truck, hunted the puck and was a natural born leader. Couturier is NOTHING like Rod Brind'Amour.... more like a homeless man's Keith Primeau with no snarl.

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10-25-2013, 09:56 AM
  #145
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You are completely right. I'm getting sick of hearing the "age" thing. You either can skate and have hands or you don't. Couturier doesn't. If he hasn't improved in these areas during the last 2 offseasons, chances are he never will. The Flyers have made him a 3rd line "defensive" center and that's all he'll amount to because he either doesn't want to improve in other areas or he just can't. And, like you said, players of his ilk can be found in later rounds or acquired for a 3rd round pick.

The mystique with Couturier is that he was a former "potential 1st overall pick" and he had ONE very good playoff round getting under the skin of Geno Malkin. Outside of those, he's done nothing to warrant the hype. The Flyers missed their chance to sell high on him when Laughton made him expendable. Shame on Holmgren.... another fail.
Couturier's skating has improved, and he does have good hands. But of course you choose to ignore the opinion of the Flyers top beat writer who watches Couturier in every game and also in practice because it conflicts with the narrative you have built up in your head.

Laughton showed at camp that he was not ready for 4th line duties let alone taking on Couturier's role as the Flyers 3C and best defensive forward.

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10-25-2013, 09:57 AM
  #146
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I think now is the time that he has to start showing it. With Read and Simmonds, he has 2 players that produce as 2nd liners. Imagine if that line started clicking how much it would change our team!
could be a hundred point line. i like the way they play

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10-25-2013, 10:05 AM
  #147
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Couturier's skating has improved, and he does have good hands. But of course you choose to ignore the opinion of the Flyers top beat writer who watches Couturier in every game and also in practice because it conflicts with the narrative you have built up in your head.
Rotfl. Really? Really?? The Flyers media coverage is absolutely horrific. I can care less what their "beat writers" say. I have eyes. Couturier's skating is HORRIBLE. Enough with the "improvement" nonsense. He CAN'T SKATE.

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10-25-2013, 10:08 AM
  #148
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You really would be better of educating yourself by reading what Bill Meltzer has to say than just repeating your stupidly exaggerated criticisms inside the echo chamber of your own head.

Writing something in caps just shows you are losing your temper, it doesn't make it a fact.

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10-25-2013, 10:13 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
You are completely right. I'm getting sick of hearing the "age" thing. You either can skate and have hands or you don't. Couturier doesn't. If he hasn't improved in these areas during the last 2 offseasons, chances are he never will. The Flyers have made him a 3rd line "defensive" center and that's all he'll amount to because he either doesn't want to improve in other areas or he just can't. And, like you said, players of his ilk can be found in later rounds or acquired for a 3rd round pick.

The mystique with Couturier is that he was a former "potential 1st overall pick" and he had ONE very good playoff round getting under the skin of Geno Malkin. Outside of those, he's done nothing to warrant the hype. The Flyers missed their chance to sell high on him when Laughton made him expendable. Shame on Holmgren.... another fail.
So there is no room for improvement in a 20 year old's game.

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10-25-2013, 10:19 AM
  #150
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So there is no room for improvement in a 20 year old's game.
JVR made his skating more explosive as a 24 year old.

http://www.tsn.ca/toronto/blogs/jonas_siegel/?id=434023

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