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Old
10-24-2013, 10:44 PM
  #701
Marc the Habs Fan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I never said McCarron would step into the OHL and dominate points wise.
I just spent probably 20 minutes going through your post history and found these 2 quotes:

One before the draft (June 16th, IIRC): ''He will play next season in London with Domi and Horvat and be a dominant force in the OHL.''

Also on September 15th: ''Gaston doesn't know what he's talking about - McCarron will dominate at the OHL level...period.''

To be fair, he hasn't played with both Horvat and Domi at the same time. More with Domi, who hasn't had a great start either. The Knights will be on Sportsnet against Kingston in a few weeks, I can't wait to see how he looks.


Last edited by Marc the Habs Fan: 10-24-2013 at 11:10 PM.
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10-24-2013, 11:09 PM
  #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I just spent probably 20 minutes going through your post history and found these 2 quotes:

''He will play next season in London with Domi and Horvat and be a dominant force in the OHL.''

Also on September 15th: ''Gaston doesn't know what he's talking about - McCarron will dominate at the OHL level...period.''

To be fair, he hasn't played with both Horvat and Domi at the same time. More with Domi, who hasn't had a great start either. The Knights will be on Sportsnet against Kingston in a few weeks, I can't wait to see how he looks.
To be fair, only the first comment alludes to any level of domination in the OHL this year

He's got you on the second quote, however to grant the same level of fairness, it's only been 10 games. History has shown isolated samples to be a poor testament to a players potential. It'd be prudent to give the guy a full season before anyone comments on the guy's career trajectory.

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10-25-2013, 08:53 AM
  #703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I just spent probably 20 minutes going through your post history and found these 2 quotes:

One before the draft (June 16th, IIRC): ''He will play next season in London with Domi and Horvat and be a dominant force in the OHL.''

Also on September 15th: ''Gaston doesn't know what he's talking about - McCarron will dominate at the OHL level...period.''

To be fair, he hasn't played with both Horvat and Domi at the same time. More with Domi, who hasn't had a great start either. The Knights will be on Sportsnet against Kingston in a few weeks, I can't wait to see how he looks.
Why did I know you'd do that? Wow..funny how you failed to "find" the posts where I said he wouldn't be a huge point scorer. You seemingly take pleasure in trying to find my supposed missteps....good for you. Thankfully I don't have such an obsession with you...I actually have a life. And no..I'm not going to go through all of your posts to find..and then post... examples.

Where does either quote say he will dominate points wise? I never said he would.....EVER!! Do you fail to comprehend that it's possible to dominate in ways other than putting up gaudy point totals? Obviously you didn't read all of my last post..and obviously you like to put your own spin on others opinions to try to get them in "gotcha" situations. Not a very healthy mentality.

Ten friggin games into the season..and we get this bullcrap already. How many of his games have you watched? Sure sounds like all you've done is look at his point totals and obtusely concluded he must be struggling...then tried to twist my previous quotes to make it look like I am completely wrong....ten games into his OHL career.

I know I sound like a broken record...but give prospects time folks..don't judge them after a handful of games one way or another, or by looking at the boxscore and speculating wildly. Gregoire is not going to be a superstar..Mac is not going to be a bust.

The Hunters are doing what they always do..easing him in. You don't go from the USHL to the OHL and immediately dominate statistically, especially after missing the team's training camp...but by the end of the year..as was stated by both Hunters..expect to see Mac playing with at least one of Horvat or Domi, and expect better point totals. By the Memorial Cup I think he will not only be dominant physically and defensively, but also putting up better point toals.

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10-25-2013, 09:33 AM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Why did I know you'd do that? Wow..funny how you failed to "find" the posts where I said he wouldn't be a huge point scorer. You seemingly take pleasure in trying to find my supposed missteps....good for you. Thankfully I don't have such an obsession with you...I actually have a life. And no..I'm not going to go through all of your posts to find..and then post... examples.

Where does either quote say he will dominate points wise? I never said he would.....EVER!! Do you fail to comprehend that it's possible to dominate in ways other than putting up gaudy point totals? Obviously you didn't read all of my last post..and obviously you like to put your own spin on others opinions to try to get them in "gotcha" situations. Not a very healthy mentality.

Ten friggin games into the season..and we get this bullcrap already. How many of his games have you watched? Sure sounds like all you've done is look at his point totals and obtusely concluded he must be struggling...then tried to twist my previous quotes to make it look like I am completely wrong....ten games into his OHL career.

I know I sound like a broken record...but give prospects time folks..don't judge them after a handful of games one way or another, or by looking at the boxscore and speculating wildly. Gregoire is not going to be a superstar..Mac is not going to be a bust.

The Hunters are doing what they always do..easing him in. You don't go from the USHL to the OHL and immediately dominate statistically, especially after missing the team's training camp...but by the end of the year..as was stated by both Hunters..expect to see Mac playing with at least one of Horvat or Domi, and expect better point totals. By the Memorial Cup I think he will not only be dominant physically and defensively, but also putting up better point toals.
Amen Grant

This is the mess Twitter has left us with, everyone thinks their opinion matters....

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10-25-2013, 09:35 AM
  #705
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Why did I know you'd do that? Wow..funny how you failed to "find" the posts where I said he wouldn't be a huge point scorer. You seemingly take pleasure in trying to find my supposed missteps....good for you. Thankfully I don't have such an obsession with you...I actually have a life. And no..I'm not going to go through all of your posts to find..and then post... examples.

Where does either quote say he will dominate points wise? I never said he would.....EVER!! Do you fail to comprehend that it's possible to dominate in ways other than putting up gaudy point totals? Obviously you didn't read all of my last post..and obviously you like to put your own spin on others opinions to try to get them in "gotcha" situations. Not a very healthy mentality.

Ten friggin games into the season..and we get this bullcrap already. How many of his games have you watched? Sure sounds like all you've done is look at his point totals and obtusely concluded he must be struggling...then tried to twist my previous quotes to make it look like I am completely wrong....ten games into his OHL career.

I know I sound like a broken record...but give prospects time folks..don't judge them after a handful of games one way or another, or by looking at the boxscore and speculating wildly. Gregoire is not going to be a superstar..Mac is not going to be a bust.

The Hunters are doing what they always do..easing him in. You don't go from the USHL to the OHL and immediately dominate statistically, especially after missing the team's training camp...but by the end of the year..as was stated by both Hunters..expect to see Mac playing with at least one of Horvat or Domi, and expect better point totals. By the Memorial Cup I think he will not only be dominant physically and defensively, but also putting up better point toals.
Tinordi also looked rough around the edges when he arrived in the OHL then after 25-30 games he got comfortable and improved a lot over those 2 years.

I find "power" players take a bit more time adjusting to the pace of the game(see Tinordi in the NHL) but once they do they are very valuable players.

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10-25-2013, 09:45 AM
  #706
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Thanks guys for the infos about Gregoire. Hopefully he turns out a bigger stronger more healthier Hudon...


They really are different players.

Hudon will adjust a million times faster to higher levels then Gregoire because of his smarts, seems the better level he plays the more it shows. His decision making is unreal and that's what makes him a stellar prospect. You'll see it at the WJC. Chicoutimi doesn't hyave a great team this year so him and Dauphin are closely marked.

Gregoire is more about intensity and work then talent and natural abilities. He needs to give it all every shifts and use physicality to be useful. He improved a lot over the last 2 years and has always been a playoffs warrior. But he will have much more work then Hudon to do to be effective at superior levels since he isn't close to have the same natural abilities.

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10-25-2013, 09:45 AM
  #707
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I just spent probably 20 minutes going through your post history and found these 2 quotes:

One before the draft (June 16th, IIRC): ''He will play next season in London with Domi and Horvat and be a dominant force in the OHL.''

Also on September 15th: ''Gaston doesn't know what he's talking about - McCarron will dominate at the OHL level...period.''

To be fair, he hasn't played with both Horvat and Domi at the same time. More with Domi, who hasn't had a great start either. The Knights will be on Sportsnet against Kingston in a few weeks, I can't wait to see how he looks.
Points wise and dominant force is not necessarily the same thing. A player can dominate physically. I think in time the points will come but it's not McCarron's bread ad butter. This year I expect about 0.75-0.8 PPGM and next yaer around 1 PPGM is he plays there both years.

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10-25-2013, 09:52 AM
  #708
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Grant, relax. I am not happy Mac is off to a slow start. I never hated on the pick.

I guess what happened is you used the word ''dominant''...in my mind that typically implies fairly significant point production for a 1st round forward in a quality draft. I'd love to see the list of players who put up a 0.7 PPG or less as an 18 year old in the CHL and ended up playing top 9 minutes in the NHL for a long time. It can't be very long.

And since you were THE source for McCarron info before and after the draft (and I thank you for it), maybe I built my hopes up a bit too high after reading such quotes implying dominance...especially after his training camp with the Habs when I thought he was real good.

I haven't watched a game because simply they aren't available here, but I view every London game highlight pack on the OHL's site and I've listened to a few segments of their games...and quite frankly he's certainly not standing out, especially recently. We can use the rookie ''reason'' to explain it, but London's 16 year old Mitch Marner has nearly twice as many points. Christian Dvorak is a 17 year old rookie who is also outproducing him.

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10-25-2013, 09:56 AM
  #709
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Grant, relax. I am not happy Mac is off to a slow start. I never hated on the pick.

I guess what happened is you used the word ''dominant''...in my mind that typically implies fairly significant point production for a 1st round forward in a quality draft. And since you were THE source for McCarron info before and after the draft, maybe I built my hopes up a bit too high after reading such quotes, especially after his training camp with the Habs.

I haven't watched a game because simply they aren't available here, but I view every London game highlight pack on the OHL's site and I've listened to a few segments of their games...and quite frankly he's certainly not standing out, especially recently. We can use the rookie ''reason'' to explain it, but London's 16 year old Mitch Marner has nearly twice as many points. Christian Dvorak is a 17 year old rookie who is also outproducing him.
But that's the point isn't? You haven't watched a game and yet you think he's having a slow start. All you did is look at his stats and mouth off at Grant....

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10-25-2013, 09:59 AM
  #710
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Grant, relax. I am not happy Mac is off to a slow start. I never hated on the pick.

I guess what happened is you used the word ''dominant''...in my mind that typically implies fairly significant point production for a 1st round forward in a quality draft. I'd love to see the list of players who put up a 0.7 PPG or less as an 18 year old in the CHL and ended up playing top 9 minutes in the NHL for a long time. It can't be very long.
And since you were THE source for McCarron info before and after the draft (and I thank you for it), maybe I built my hopes up a bit too high after reading such quotes implying dominance...especially after his training camp with the Habs when I thought he was real good.

I haven't watched a game because simply they aren't available here, but I view every London game highlight pack on the OHL's site and I've listened to a few segments of their games...and quite frankly he's certainly not standing out, especially recently. We can use the rookie ''reason'' to explain it, but London's 16 year old Mitch Marner has nearly twice as many points. Christian Dvorak is a 17 year old rookie who is also outproducing him.
Yes it would be extremely long IMO. many players developps later.

EDIT: oh I've read 1PPG. .7 might be much shorter.

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10-25-2013, 10:03 AM
  #711
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McCarron saw a couple shifts with Domi and Horvat last night late in the third. Good board work by McCarron and Horvat freed the puck up at the blue line and then the defenceman sent the puck to Domi. Domi dangled around the goaltender and scored, but the goal was waved off as the play was deemed offside.

I think we will be seeing more of that line in the near future.

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10-25-2013, 10:12 AM
  #712
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Maybe it's time to seperate 'development' from 'production'.

Just because McCarron isn't lighting it up at the moment, doesn't mean he's not developing as a prospect, which ultimately, is the primary goal.

Points are often circumstancial and don't necessarily equate to a player developing at a good pace.

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10-25-2013, 10:15 AM
  #713
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its not the production that worries me. Mccaron seems to have a few flaws in his game in order to be a top 6. Skating is one of them.

He has a lot of years to prove us wrong but even if he becomes a solid third liner, I would be more then happy. Problem is you don't pick a young prospect in the first round to be a projected bottom 9 player. I don't see the speed in him in order to become a Shayne Corson or I don't know a Shane Doan or ... a dominant power forward? Mike definitely uses size to his advantage which is a plus. He is also good at protecting the puck along the boards.

As habs fans not only we tend to overhype but we are on roller coaster judgemnet. If Eller has 9 points in his first 5 games he is a hero if not he is a bum, it doesnt work that way. Patience is always required. We would need to wait until mid season for Mccaron to have a good judgement. Don't let statistics fool ya btw.

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10-25-2013, 10:19 AM
  #714
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Originally Posted by FazChenyuk View Post
its not the production that worries me. Mccaron seems to have a few flaws in his game in order to be a top 6. Skating is one of them. He has a lot of years to prove us wrong but even if he becomes a solid third liner, I would be more then happy. Problem is you don't pick a young prospect in the first round to be a projected bottom 9 player.
For an 18 year old guy that's 6'5" 237lbs I find he moves pretty well.


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10-25-2013, 10:21 AM
  #715
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Look, this what I am getting at.

With his massive size, his soft hands, his solid hockey IQ and his decent skating ability for his size (I don't agree it's a weakness, Faz)...he should be producing more than a point every 2 games playing against kids while playing on a team loaded with talent and playmakers. He has an incredible physical advantage over about 90% of his opponents.

It's reasonable to say it's a slow start. Maybe I put too much stock in his training camp with us, I came in expecting a huge project who was nowhere near ready to play decent hockey in exhibition games. And he looked so much more advanced than that in those games.

Yes, Tinordi was pretty average in his first year in the OHL. I am fully aware. However, let's not forget that was London's worst team in years and it's always a longer adjustment period for a defenceman.

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10-25-2013, 10:22 AM
  #716
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Yes it would be extremely long IMO. many players developps later.
Not sure what you mean by extremely long. Will you find some examples, sure, there's always an Alex Burrows, Pascal Dupuis but there's not an extremely long list of those guys.

I see you edited your post I didn't check for 1PPG, there's probably more of them.

I wasn't a fan of the pick to begin with. That said, I'll give him time, it's still early in the year. Kid got hurt, not playing the best minutes on earth. That said, I can't say I'm surprised that he's not lighting it up. Size is generally vastly overrated for forwards except when it comes to defensive play.

I always struggled with the concept that a player can dominate while not producing either offensively or defensively. I understand that McCarron is not a defensive liability but I don't think I've read reports saying he's a shutdown type of guy either. I understand you can create space for your teammates, make the opposing team take penalties and whatnot but it's still fairly marginal.

I don't get the Tinordi comparisons either. Tinordi was a d-man playing on a weak team. McCarron is a forward playing on a strong team. Other than both being big men playing for London their development curve should be 2 different things.

Quote:
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He has an incredible physical advantage over about 90% of his opponents.
More like 99.6%


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10-25-2013, 10:31 AM
  #717
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For an 18 year old guy that's 6'5" 237lbs I find he moves pretty well.
I agree. I know Timmins value skating a lot in his scouting so he wouldn't have picked Mccaron if his skating was like Latendresse. Basing on camp, I think he definitely has room for improvement, I would say his skating was average but it might be above average in juniors.

Maybe its because of his size, you can't be that big and be insanely quick.

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10-25-2013, 10:49 AM
  #718
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Look, this what I am getting at.

With his massive size, his soft hands, his solid hockey IQ and his decent skating ability for his size (I don't agree it's a weakness, Faz)...he should be producing more than a point every 2 games playing against kids while playing on a team loaded with talent and playmakers. He has an incredible physical advantage over about 90% of his opponents.

It's reasonable to say it's a slow start. Maybe I put too much stock in his training camp with us, I came in expecting a huge project who was nowhere near ready to play decent hockey in exhibition games. And he looked so much more advanced than that in those games.

Yes, Tinordi was pretty average in his first year in the OHL. I am fully aware. However, let's not forget that was London's worst team in years and it's always a longer adjustment period for a defenceman.
So I guess you are ready to say that Mantha will have a better NHL career than McCarron.

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10-25-2013, 11:32 AM
  #719
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its not the production that worries me. Mccaron seems to have a few flaws in his game in order to be a top 6. Skating is one of them.

He has a lot of years to prove us wrong but even if he becomes a solid third liner, I would be more then happy. Problem is you don't pick a young prospect in the first round to be a projected bottom 9 player. I don't see the speed in him in order to become a Shayne Corson or I don't know a Shane Doan or ... a dominant power forward? Mike definitely uses size to his advantage which is a plus. He is also good at protecting the puck along the boards.
I do hope you meant bottom 6. Late first are mostly middle 6er, so third liner wouldn't be that bad and 2-3rd tweener would be good. A first liner with size at the 25th pick would be orgasmic.

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10-25-2013, 11:39 AM
  #720
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So I guess you are ready to say that Mantha will have a better NHL career than McCarron.
No I am not going to say that, I'm not a Mantha fan...he can put up 250 points in the Q this season and I'll still have the same questions about his future in the pros.

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10-25-2013, 12:52 PM
  #721
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I think people who expect these high picks to come to junior and "dominate" instantly are those who don't watch much junior. And as Grant said, a player like McCarron is not the type to dominate offensively for a while.

But Marc has a valid point. I speak routinely with London fans who believe it is certainly fair to say he's been a tad underwhelming so far. Having said that, it's also worth noting that the entire London team has been a tad underwhelming based on expectations. They'll all be fine in time.

Without Maatta and Zadorov though, there are huge puck movement holes on their blueline and players like McCarron and Domi are spending more time in their own end than they normally would. Plus, in the two games I've watched this year, McCarron seems to be putting extra focus on getting the system down and being in position and finishing his checks. Once he learns that, his ice time will increase in offensive situations and then we'll be able to judge.

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10-25-2013, 03:08 PM
  #722
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No I am not going to say that, I'm not a Mantha fan...he can put up 250 points in the Q this season and I'll still have the same questions about his future in the pros.
So what your saying is production in junior really is not the measuring stick in terms of pro potential - right?

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10-25-2013, 03:40 PM
  #723
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So what your saying is production in junior really is not the measuring stick in terms of pro potential - right?
What I'm saying is that Mantha has already proven he can put up huge points during the regular season in the Q, whether he posts 100, 120 or 150 points this season, there will still be questions on whether he can translate his game to the pros and be an effective NHLer on a solid team.

We're still trying to figure out what McCarron's potential truly is offensively. That's the difference.

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10-25-2013, 03:45 PM
  #724
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Lehkonen hasn't scored in a few games.

Another Timmins bust

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10-25-2013, 03:52 PM
  #725
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What I'm saying is that Mantha has already proven he can put up huge points during the regular season in the Q, whether he posts 100, 120 or 150 points this season, there will still be questions on whether he can translate his game to the pros and be an effective NHLer on a solid team.

We're still trying to figure out what McCarron's potential truly is offensively. That's the difference.
Except very likely it won't be in junior that you define NHL production. Too many examples of junior point guys becoming role players or not making NHL and the reverse is also true. Not every solid NHL point producer was a junior point producing standout.

So basically, trying to extrapolate McCarron's NHL offensive potential will require a teesy-weensie more patience :-)

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