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Coots: Sean Couturier

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Old
10-25-2013, 12:09 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Isn't their career numbers pretty identical as well?
Spin it anyway that helps you sleep better at night. Bernier is better than Mason, watch the games and watch them play. And I'm not even down on Mason..... he's been the Flyers best player and is finally a very decent option in net. But Bernier is better.

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10-25-2013, 12:10 PM
  #177
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Isn't their career numbers pretty identical as well?
Not really, but Mason has played way more games, and for a really crappy team.

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10-25-2013, 12:19 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
Gees, please stop with the other 8th picks and the forwards taken, etc. The Flyers passed on Dougie Hamilton and Jonas Brodin to take Sean Couturier when they CLEARLY lacked viable defensive depth within the organization..... and at the time had Giroux, Briere, Talbot and Schenn on the team. Their evaluation of TALENT is poor which is why they figured Couturier would be better than Hamilton or Brodin (which he is NOT). It's also why the messed up by taking Morin over superior talents like Morrissey, Pulock, Zadorov and Theodore.... and that's just defensemen.
You just killed all your credibility in one sentence.

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10-25-2013, 12:21 PM
  #179
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Neither Brodin or Hamilton will ever be Norris candidates, but Couturier when he is mid 20's I can see being in a lot of Selke discussion. Couturiers type takes longer to adjust to the game. One thing that makes his development take longer is the fact that they want him getting bigger first. He still needs to fill his frame a bit more, so he is stronger with the puck. By doing so it makes it harder for him to focus on strengthening his skating. The way I see his development going is one more off season of growth (right now he is only 197, and realistically he needs to be around 210-215. After that he can focus more on his speed. His defensive IQ is through the roof, and that will only improve, but he hasn't transitioned his offensive game yet to the NHL level like that of his Q days. At 20, I'm not worried about that coming, because he has offensive skill, I've seen it in the Q. I think one major problem we have is the assumption that guys like Giroux/Couts/Jake are going to be putting up 30+ goals every year, when realistically all 3 of the guys have always been Play-makers first, and neither of these guys are playing with any bonified Snipers.

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10-25-2013, 12:22 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
See, this is where we disagree. What "hole" is caused by trading Sean Couturier? The role of a 3rd line, checking center? We currently have Max Talbot who can slip right into that role and we have Scott Laughton waiting in the wings who could end up even better at that role because of his skating ability and edge. Christ, if worst came to absolute worst, the Flyers could have Adam Hall fill that role as a stop gap.... or the Flyers could trade for a player like Mark Letestu, Boyd Gordon or Antoine Vermette if they really NEEDED to.
Do you forget what Talbot is like at center? He is HORRIBLE. You know how the 3rd line centered by Couturier actually gets out of the D-zone and establishes an offensive zone presence? Kiss that ability goodbye; hell, they're doing it now first with Talbot as an offensive anchor and now with Simmonds looking like he's forgotten what the point of hockey is. Also, kiss the ability to neutralize top players goodbye. Laughton is a hell of a lot less proven than Couturier, assuming he could just replace him is baseless. Couturier's skill set is more unique than you realize, as Appleyard has pointed out repeatedly. There is no other 20 year old that does what he does. I cannot, off the top of my head, name another 18 year old that came into the NHL and did the same stuff defensively. Only Clarke comes to mind immediately, and he was freaking 20 when he started.

All of your solutions here make the team a lot worse. We would have 2 top lines and 2 fourth lines...ask the Caps how that works out, and we don't have Ovechkin.


Quote:
You honestly don't think having a top like winger like Ryan or Eriksson would help this team significantly more than keeping Sean Couturier as your 3rd line checking center? Wow.
Pursue Ryan for free in FA.

And again, you're clearly underestimating how much impact Couturier has. Remember when the Pens traded Staal and lost their depth? Observe now how they fold immediately if someone has a Couturier-like player who can eliminate their stars and force them to rely on depth.

You'd be turning the Flyers into a 2 line team, and that's a step back. Also, it's not how you rebuild. You do not rebuild by trading high potential young players because you're impatient now. The team is years from contending. They are not one or two moves away from realistically making a splash. Build through the draft. Build through FA. But most of all, BUILD. Don't scatter vital pieces away in what would be a lateral move at best.

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Old
10-25-2013, 12:23 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
You honestly don't think having a top like winger like Ryan or Eriksson would help this team significantly more than keeping Sean Couturier as your 3rd line checking center? Wow.
Both of those guys would have cost a lot more than Couturier to acquire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
Gees, please stop with the other 8th picks and the forwards taken, etc. The Flyers passed on Dougie Hamilton and Jonas Brodin to take Sean Couturier when they CLEARLY lacked viable defensive depth within the organization..... and at the time had Giroux, Briere, Talbot and Schenn on the team. Their evaluation of TALENT is poor which is why they figured Couturier would be better than Hamilton or Brodin (which he is NOT). It's also why the messed up by taking Morin over superior talents like Morrissey, Pulock, Zadorov and Theodore.... and that's just defensemen.
So now you're saying you already know that all those guys are better than Morin, as well as that Hamilton will be a 28 minute defenseman i.e. the highest minutes eater in the league. That is a hell of a crystal ball you've got there.

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10-25-2013, 12:24 PM
  #182
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Well I mean they've only drafted these guys i the first round over the past decade+

Pitkanen
Carter
Richards
Giroux
JvR
Sbisa
Couturier (waste)
Laughton
Morin (sucks)

And signed Bob and Read out of nowhere

That seems like pretty poor talent evaluation.

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10-25-2013, 12:25 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
You just killed all your credibility in one sentence.
Mason and his username namesake shoot that notion directly in both feet.

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10-25-2013, 12:33 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
How many times does Appleyard have to lay stuff out for you before you actually respond to him?
He also refused to respond to the fact that Couturier is scoring goals at almost the same pace as Henrik Sedin did as a young player.

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10-25-2013, 12:36 PM
  #185
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I wish I could put all of the contents in this thread (some excellent research by Appleyard, well done) in a pamphlet and mail it to all the bonehead Flyer fans that lament trading JVR and Bob, but at the snap of the fingers will include Couturier in every trade scenario. I really think if they end up moving him, they'll SERIOUSLY regret it.

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10-25-2013, 12:37 PM
  #186
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I want to know how we are going to win faceoffs without Couturier. The team is at 47%, with Couturier leading at 53%.

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10-25-2013, 12:38 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I wish I could put all of the contents in this thread (some excellent research by Appleyard, well done) in a pamphlet and mail it to all the bonehead Flyer fans that lament trading JVR and Bob, but at the snap of the fingers will include Couturier in every trade scenario. I really think if they end up moving him, they'll SERIOUSLY regret it.
They'll seriously regret it immediately when they suddenly see the team spending a lot more time stuck in their own zone.

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10-25-2013, 12:40 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
They'll seriously regret it immediately when they suddenly see the team spending a lot more time stuck in their own zone.
Do you honestly think they'll be able to make that connection?

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10-25-2013, 12:41 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
They'll seriously regret it immediately when they suddenly see the team spending a lot more time stuck in their own zone.
I seriously don't understand how you can watch a game (like seriously watch it, watch all the plays and how players react) and tell me Couturier is worthless. If anything, even if you think there are a ton of guys like him out there, he's freaking CHEAP! Handzus used to make 4 mil, then 2.5, Jarrett Stoll makes 3.25, John Madden used to make ~3m. Couturier is young and pretty much cost controlled. At least someone can look at simple numbers?

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10-25-2013, 12:45 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Not really, but Mason has played way more games, and for a really crappy team.
Oh ok, I was at work & didn't feel like looking it up but I thought for some reason they were.

It's still an absurd statement regardless

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Old
10-25-2013, 02:44 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You do not rebuild by trading high potential young players because you're impatient now. The team is years from contending. They are not one or two moves away from realistically making a splash. Build through the draft. Build through FA. But most of all, BUILD. Don't scatter vital pieces away in what would be a lateral move at best.
I agree with this point a lot. That said, Bobby Ryan would be a key piece of the future.... he's what, 25 years old?? Trading Couturier for a 31-32 year old would be a disaster. Ryan would have been a piece of the core.... and IMO a more important one than Couturier. Same with Bernier..... who IMO will be one of the best young goalies in the league soon.

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10-25-2013, 02:54 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
I agree with this point a lot. That said, Bobby Ryan would be a key piece of the future.... he's what, 25 years old?? Trading Couturier for a 31-32 year old would be a disaster. Ryan would have been a piece of the core.... and IMO a more important one than Couturier. Same with Bernier..... who IMO will be one of the best young goalies in the league soon.
Jeesh this dude's name won't die...it has more lives than Leighton

Hopefully, Mason will make both Bob and Bernier an afterthought and I think Couturier will not disappoint even if the Flyers are dumb enough to give up on him at some point.

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10-25-2013, 04:06 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
Jeesh this dude's name won't die...it has more lives than Leighton.
He's from Cherry Hill! OMG OMG! And his parents are friends with Bob Clarke! OMG! Let's trade Couts and 73 1st round picks for him! Hurry! Tim Panaccio said so!


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Old
10-25-2013, 04:55 PM
  #194
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He's from Cherry Hill! OMG OMG! And his parents are friends with Bob Clarke! OMG! Let's trade Couts and 73 1st round picks for him! Hurry! Tim Panaccio said so!
They should try and do an 'all local boys' on the ice at the same time:

Ryan-Tangredi-Sloane (Ryan has to make way for Sloane on the right ofc)
T.J. Brennan-Sanguinetti

Try and get Mike Richter out of retirement.

(I know Ryan does have genuinely special links to the org though, and I imagine there is a decent chance he signs here if he goes FA, and that would be great, but I don't think it is a dead cert, but then again only Bobby himself knows that.)

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10-25-2013, 05:00 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
I agree with this point a lot. That said, Bobby Ryan would be a key piece of the future.... he's what, 25 years old?? Trading Couturier for a 31-32 year old would be a disaster. Ryan would have been a piece of the core.... and IMO a more important one than Couturier. Same with Bernier..... who IMO will be one of the best young goalies in the league soon.
People need to stop with Bobby Ryan. He isn't coming to Philadelphia and the word is that the Senators are close to re-signing him to a long term deal.

I don't get why you're so down on Couturier. The man is playing the toughest role on the team and the problem with his offense has to do with the team pigeon holing him in a defensive role and giving him no opportunity to play an offensive game. The offense will come. People just need to be patient. Christ, the kid hasn't even turned 21 yet.

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10-25-2013, 05:38 PM
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
I wish I could put all of the contents in this thread (some excellent research by Appleyard, well done) in a pamphlet and mail it to all the bonehead Flyer fans that lament trading JVR and Bob, but at the snap of the fingers will include Couturier in every trade scenario. I really think if they end up moving him, they'll SERIOUSLY regret it.
No doubt. But it is the way of many Flyer fans. Complain about Couturier, see him traded where he excels and then be mad that the Flyers traded him.

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10-25-2013, 06:39 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
Gees, please stop with the other 8th picks and the forwards taken, etc. The Flyers passed on Dougie Hamilton and Jonas Brodin to take Sean Couturier when they CLEARLY lacked viable defensive depth within the organization..... and at the time had Giroux, Briere, Talbot and Schenn on the team. Their evaluation of TALENT is poor which is why they figured Couturier would be better than Hamilton or Brodin (which he is NOT). It's also why the messed up by taking Morin over superior talents like Morrissey, Pulock, Zadorov and Theodore.... and that's just defensemen.
huh? Couts has done more at the NHL level than either of those two.

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10-25-2013, 09:01 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Gustafsson View Post
Spin it anyway that helps you sleep better at night. Bernier is better than Mason, watch the games and watch them play. And I'm not even down on Mason..... he's been the Flyers best player and is finally a very decent option in net. But Bernier is better.
He looked bad tonight against the Jackets

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10-25-2013, 09:06 PM
  #199
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Main problem with Coots is he is a Center on a team absolutely stacked at C. To his credit he has become good at Faceoffs, so someday he should get the #2 role, or even #1 if Giroux never re-finds his game.

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10-26-2013, 01:16 PM
  #200
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Main problem with Coots is he is a Center on a team absolutely stacked at C. To his credit he has become good at Faceoffs, so someday he should get the #2 role, or even #1 if Giroux never re-finds his game.
What has Couturier shown that makes you think he could be fitted as a #1 Centre? #2 centre is being generous at this stage. I'm well aware of his defensive zone starts, poor linemates, etc, but the fact of the matter is he has scored a whopping 4 goals in his last 55 games played. Poor linemates and defensive zone starts aside, those numbers does resemble a potential #1 centre even in the slightest.

Hey, he could prove me wrong (and I'd happily eat crow), but lets take a step back for a second and face reality. His speed alone will prevent him (I think) from ever being a #1 centre.

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