HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Coaching Discussion Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-25-2013, 03:05 PM
  #1
cwede
Registered User
 
cwede's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 438
vCash: 500
Coaching Discussion Thread

Vigneault? another Trottier\Tom Webster\Ron Stewart\Larry Popein\Boom Boom

cripes, has any other team had so many ineffective new coaches since '60's expansion?

Maybe AV gets to finish his first season, unlike the guys I listed (Webster was actually health), but this is pathetic.

The players haven't produced, but the team has no identity or presence.


Last edited by cwede: 10-25-2013 at 03:14 PM. Reason: add the removed list of names from initial subject to body text
cwede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 03:29 PM
  #2
beef 4 lunch
Registered User
 
beef 4 lunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 239
vCash: 500
couple thoughts on AV:

I doubt that he was hired with the expectation that this team would be successful right away. Maybe it was not expected to be THIS bad, but as I've said before, this is a terrible roster, just terrible. No coach could win with this roster.

I would expect that AV presented a plan to achieve success over a period of one or two or three years. The 1st part of this season would be dedicated to getting to know the roster and making personnel decisions. As the season goes on, I expect the Rangers to be active in trading undesirables and acquiring players that better fit the system and team identity.

As time goes goes by, and the coach has acquired the players he wants, the bar will be raised. I would be completely shocked if he got the boot this year.....it would take a worse than last place finish.

I am excited at the prospect of a new coach and system AND regular playing time for some young blood in the form of young guys from Hartford, high draft picks, and skilled players from trades.

Just need to ride out this low point.

beef 4 lunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 03:34 PM
  #3
Machinehead
Moderator
Siez and toffnuss!
 
Machinehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New York New York
Country: United States
Posts: 40,388
vCash: 500
I want Herb Brooks.

__________________
Machinehead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 03:57 PM
  #4
Savant
Registered User
 
Savant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,705
vCash: 500
Alain Vigneault is a good hockey coach. However I think he is a terrible fit.

I disagree he was that brought in with low expectations, that makes no sense to me. They got him because he was a veteran "players" coach that has a reputation for winning. If they wanted to go for an overhaul they would have gone in a different direction, and changes to the roster would have reflected this, and a rebuild would have began. It is a logical time to rebuild because of all the impending free agents, but it is unlikely Sather goes in that direction because he is Sather.

They thought getting rid of Torts and adding a more offensive coach would lead to more wins, but instead the defense is worse because they don't know what to do in his system, and the offense is horrendous, not only because of injuries, but because they lack the personnel to play how AV wants to. To use an NFL analogy, it is very hard to play a 3-4 defense if you have 4-3 personnel, and everyone suffers because it represents a lot of square pegs in round holes. I also think hiring Arniel was a massive mistake and put another unnecessary distraction in the mix.I don't think AV's shtick works with the NY media and the fan base, and I can't imagine he is a good fit in the locker room. Honestly the whole thing reminds me of what happened when the Red Sox hired Bobby Valentine as manager and we know how that is ending up.

Savant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 04:01 PM
  #5
True Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,243
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
No coach could win with this roster.
Not exactly true
Quote:
As the season goes on, I expect the Rangers to be active in trading undesirables and acquiring players that better fit the system and team identity.
And what is that identity?
Quote:
I am excited at the prospect of a new coach and system AND regular playing time for some young blood in the form of young guys from Hartford, high draft picks, and skilled players from trades.
Have there not been young players regularly making the team and playing meaningful minutes?

True Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 04:12 PM
  #6
pld459666
Registered User
 
pld459666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Danbury, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 17,069
vCash: 500
AV needs time.

what we see is that we have a team that is small, slow and not very skilled.

stringing 2-3 passes together should not be something to applaud. Yet this team fails at that very simple thing game in and game out. That's not systemic, that's just pathetic.

pld459666 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 04:21 PM
  #7
beef 4 lunch
Registered User
 
beef 4 lunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Not exactly true

And what is that identity?

Have there not been young players regularly making the team and playing meaningful minutes?
Maybe not exactly true but no one will know. I say that based on my opinion of the roster.

No idea what the identity is. But can a new coach create an identity In a month? With players that have no identity.

There have been young players but the lineup is riddled with garbage. Moore, Pyatt, Poulliot, and Boyle play too much and we will not win with em in the lineup. I want hungry guys with something to prove.

beef 4 lunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 04:28 PM
  #8
Machinehead
Moderator
Siez and toffnuss!
 
Machinehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New York New York
Country: United States
Posts: 40,388
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Not exactly true
Only two coaches could win with this roster: Herb Brooks and Jesus H. Christ.

They're both dead.

Machinehead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 04:29 PM
  #9
Shadowtron
Registered User
 
Shadowtron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,532
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Have there not been young players regularly making the team and playing meaningful minutes?
Exactly. The Callys and the Dubis were the yoots posters like you and I were smacked and told to wait for whenever we raised a criticism about the direction this GM was taking. Well...they're here and pushing 30 and we're talking a rebuild now? Time for a new GM. End of story.

Shadowtron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 04:43 PM
  #10
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 30,216
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
couple thoughts on AV:

I doubt that he was hired with the expectation that this team would be successful right away. Maybe it was not expected to be THIS bad, but as I've said before, this is a terrible roster, just terrible. No coach could win with this roster.
Disagree. You don't fire a coach who has gone to the ECF and 2nd round of playoffs in consecutive years and replace him with the idea that you are going to take a step back when the roster is by and large the same. The injuries certainly hasn't helped but I don't think it's a bad roster. I'm not so sure how it fits into AV's system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
I would expect that AV presented a plan to achieve success over a period of one or two or three years. The 1st part of this season would be dedicated to getting to know the roster and making personnel decisions. As the season goes on, I expect the Rangers to be active in trading undesirables and acquiring players that better fit the system and team identity.
The Rangers made a big-time trade to add Rick Nash who was supposed to be the final, missing piece. They had a disappointing season but still managed to make the playoffs and win a round. The GM constantly (and sometimes insanely) says that goal of the team is to win the Stanley Cup. You don't hire a coach who then gives you a 2-3 year plan. If for no other reason than that's not the way Sather operates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
As time goes goes by, and the coach has acquired the players he wants, the bar will be raised. I would be completely shocked if he got the boot this year.....it would take a worse than last place finish.
Nope. You hire a coach who will mesh well with the current personnel. Or the coach needs to adapt to the players he has. Tortorella coached differently when he didn't have a Vincent Lecavalier, Martin St. Louis or Dan Boyle on his roster. The bar has been raised. Any thought that Glen Sather's plan was to take a step back this season is pure folly.

__________________

Last edited by SingnBluesOnBroadway: 10-25-2013 at 04:49 PM.
SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 04:50 PM
  #11
True Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,243
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Only two coaches could win with this roster: Herb Brooks and Jesus H. Christ.

They're both dead.
Tortarella seemed to have success with a very similar roster.

True Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 04:54 PM
  #12
True Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 15,243
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
Maybe not exactly true but no one will know. I say that based on my opinion of the roster.
What did the previous coach do with a substantially similar roster?
Quote:
No idea what the identity is. But can a new coach create an identity In a month? With players that have no identity.
An identity path can be started on and adherence to it can be enforced.
Quote:
There have been young players but the lineup is riddled with garbage. Moore, Pyatt, Poulliot, and Boyle play too much and we will not win with em in the lineup. I want hungry guys with something to prove
.
In the last 4 years, there have been more youth given meaningful minutes than in the last 25 years. Don't like Moore, Pyatt or Pouliot? Blame either Sather for signing them or AV for asking for them.

True Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 04:58 PM
  #13
NikC
Registered User
 
NikC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,601
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Only two coaches could win with this roster: Herb Brooks and Jesus H. Christ.

They're both dead.
Christ Jesus is risen from the dead

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

NikC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 05:09 PM
  #14
stan the caddy
Registered User
 
stan the caddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,759
vCash: 500
I don't think that management expected everything to click in the first 5 games but a coaching change was made because the old coach was supposedly holding the team back. Glen Sather based his decision on the Rangers dumping the puck in too much, lmao.

stan the caddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 06:05 PM
  #15
beef 4 lunch
Registered User
 
beef 4 lunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Disagree. You don't fire a coach who has gone to the ECF and 2nd round of playoffs in consecutive years and replace him with the idea that you are going to take a step back when the roster is by and large the same. The injuries certainly hasn't helped but I don't think it's a bad roster. I'm not so sure how it fits into AV's system.
If there was some master plan for a new coach to take us over the hump, why trade our best scorer? Because he didn't mesh well with Torts. Torts was forced out by the players, and i dont think Sather intended on firing torts until he heard from his big players.

And this roster is bad. there are good players but overall, they are where they belong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The Rangers made a big-time trade to add Rick Nash who was supposed to be the final, missing piece. They had a disappointing season but still managed to make the playoffs and win a round. The GM constantly (and sometimes insanely) says that goal of the team is to win the Stanley Cup. You don't hire a coach who then gives you a 2-3 year plan. If for no other reason than that's not the way Sather operates.
Disagree. A more ridiculous suggestion is to think the Glen is simple minded enough to think that a new coach would take this roster to the Stanley Cup the first year. or the AV would be so bold as to promise that he could do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Nope. You hire a coach who will mesh well with the current personnel. Or the coach needs to adapt to the players he has.Tortorella coached differently when he didn't have a Vincent Lecavalier, Martin St. Louis or Dan Boyle on his roster. The bar has been raised. Any thought that Glen Sather's plan was to take a step back this season is pure folly.
That is not why you hire a coach. Don't you expect PLAYERS to adapt to the COACH? or the coach has the authority to bring players that play a style. Glen said that the rangers were unwatchable. AV style was supposed to address that, let him get the players he needs and implement the system.

beef 4 lunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 06:08 PM
  #16
beef 4 lunch
Registered User
 
beef 4 lunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
What did the previous coach do with a substantially similar roster?
What did he do? he got run out of town by his players. And torts' best years here were with a very different team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
An identity path can be started on and adherence to it can be enforced.
Not sure what you mean here.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
In the last 4 years, there have been more youth given meaningful minutes than in the last 25 years. Don't like Moore, Pyatt or Pouliot? Blame either Sather for signing them or AV for asking for them.
I blame Sather of course. How could you blame AV. he just got here and hasnt had a chance to adjust the roster.

beef 4 lunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 06:16 PM
  #17
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 30,216
vCash: 500
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
If there was some master plan for a new coach to take us over the hump, why trade our best scorer? Because he didn't mesh well with Torts. Torts was forced out by the players, and i dont think Sather intended on firing torts until he heard from his big players.
You're using the benefit of hindsight. You're assuming there was a plan in place to replace Torts when the Gaborik trade was made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
And this roster is bad. there are good players but overall, they are where they belong.
The roster is not full of players who are going to thrive in the current system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
Disagree. A more ridiculous suggestion is to think the Glen is simple minded enough to think that a new coach would take this roster to the Stanley Cup the first year. or the AV would be so bold as to promise that he could do that.
Oh, there's no doubt in my mind the Sather thinks that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
That is not why you hire a coach. Don't you expect PLAYERS to adapt to the COACH? or the coach has the authority to bring players that play a style. Glen said that the rangers were unwatchable. AV style was supposed to address that, let him get the players he needs and implement the system.
No, there are more players than coaches. It's up to the coach to get the most out his players. Players can't make themselves skate faster or score more goals. You play to your team's strengths.


And I don't care if the team was unwatchable Being watchable isn't the goal. Winning is. And truth be told this season has been some of the most unwatchable hockey I've seen.

To let AV get the players he wants and implement his system is to just keep the revolving door going. So in three years they can get another coach and start the wheel of disfunction again?

SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 06:30 PM
  #18
beef 4 lunch
Registered User
 
beef 4 lunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You're using the benefit of hindsight. You're assuming there was a plan in place to replace Torts when the Gaborik trade was made.



The roster is not full of players who are going to thrive in the current system.




Oh, there's no doubt in my mind the Sather thinks that.



No, there are more players than coaches. It's up to the coach to get the most out his players. Players can't make themselves skate faster or score more goals. You play to your team's strengths.


And I don't care if the team was unwatchable Being watchable isn't the goal. Winning is. And truth be told this season has been some of the most unwatchable hockey I've seen.

To let AV get the players he wants and implement his system is to just keep the revolving door going. So in three years they can get another coach and start the wheel of disfunction again?
Amen. But i don't think this has anything to do with AV.

beef 4 lunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 06:33 PM
  #19
Savant
Registered User
 
Savant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You're using the benefit of hindsight. You're assuming there was a plan in place to replace Torts when the Gaborik trade was made.



The roster is not full of players who are going to thrive in the current system.
On these two points, I do not believe the Gaborik trade was made with the plan to fire Torts. If anything that trade got rid of Gaborik for Torts. I think AV would have been thrilled to go into this season with Nash and Gaborik. Torts needed another year with the guys he got from Columbus, or he needed to be fired midseason before Gaborik was traded.

Also I honestly think Laviolette could win with this roster, not that Sather is going to fire AV, but this team has a lot of Laviolette friendly personnel and Laviolette is familiar with the team from being in division and from team USA.

Right now the team is just watered down and there is a major disconnect at all levels. I do think AV botched the preseason and the team is obviously out of sync. The Rangers seemed to feed off Torts' passion. AV is a gum chewing robot. To me it's just a bad fit, and I don't see it getting better.

Savant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 06:58 PM
  #20
bernmeister
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,022
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikC View Post
Christ Jesus is risen from the dead

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Hallelujah
(optional on the chorus or the Leonard Cohen version)

I understand people are trying to figure out exactly the gospel (actually 4 recognized major ones in the New Testament which are similar w/subtle differences).

IMO, We get a partial pass there because God enlightens us all differently, so we are judged on a curve based on what we are supposed to do within the construct of what we are given.

However, notwithstanding the fact that our favorite team could use all the Divine intervention it can get, let's not get anybody --- and I mean Anybody --- pissed by being disrespectful.

Since some of us know the middle initial, ok, but let's take care beyond that.

bernmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 07:06 PM
  #21
bernmeister
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,022
vCash: 500
Getting back to the subject, AVs system has a track record. It works. But it REQUIRES speed.

We have some guys with average jump, but our real speedsters are
Kreider Miller Fast
who should be playing as a line.

When returned, Hags + Cally could be 2/3s of another line.

The rest of our F guys:
keep/trade for premium assets / or upgrade: Stepan, /Brassard, Moore
not able to move for obvious reasons: Richards
guys to move if the price is right, decent value ok: Boyle, Dorsett
guys to dump for cap space: Pouilot, MZA, Pyatt

bernmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 07:16 PM
  #22
Savant
Registered User
 
Savant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,705
vCash: 500
AV has had plenty of chances to move Fast up but he has not done so. I would love to put the kids together but AV does not share that sentiment.

Savant is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 07:32 PM
  #23
OverTheCap
Registered User
 
OverTheCap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 9,843
vCash: 500
At AV's press conference, Sather said that maybe if the team stayed healthy like the Blackhawks or the Bruins, then the Rangers would have been in the finals. He did not recognize the deficiencies of the roster back then and from many of the comments made that day, it sure seems like he hired AV with the notion that this team would contend almost immediately.

OverTheCap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 07:38 PM
  #24
beef 4 lunch
Registered User
 
beef 4 lunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 239
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
At AV's press conference, Sather said that maybe if the team stayed healthy like the Blackhawks or the Bruins, then the Rangers would have been in the finals. He did not recognize the deficiencies of the roster back then and from many of the comments made that day, it sure seems like he hired AV with the notion that this team would contend almost immediately.
One of our best scorers ever was traded and our 1a center rode the bench through the playoffs and Sather thinks injuries were the problem?

beef 4 lunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-25-2013, 07:41 PM
  #25
Bullseyes
Registered User
 
Bullseyes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,680
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
At AV's press conference, Sather said that maybe if the team stayed healthy like the Blackhawks or the Bruins, then the Rangers would have been in the finals. He did not recognize the deficiencies of the roster back then and from many of the comments made that day, it sure seems like he hired AV with the notion that this team would contend almost immediately.
The Rangers have a lot of problems and as most probably would agree, are not close to the Blackhawks or the Bruins.

Every team deals with injuries in the playoffs.

Bullseyes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:43 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.