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GDT: Capitals @ Flyers, Dec. 9th, 7:00PM EST (CSN)

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Old
12-09-2006, 10:30 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
BTW .. while the 4th wasn't a bad terrible goal, a big time goalie makes that save. The Niitty that played last night in Jersey makes that save.
There's probably only 4 goalies in the league who are 'big time' goalies to begin with due to the fact that so few are truly dominant.

John, you want Biron in here, what has he done that Niitty hasn't that he is handed the #1 job in camp and given such a contract? I wouldn't cry if he was here, but then again, the only time he's ever started was for bad Buffalo teams between Hasek and Ryan Miller.

You can also be assured that we won't get Souray. He wants to play out west. And no way would I give him $5M



If Clarke knew Calder would be this bad, you can bet your house Clarke wouldn't have done that trade. He knew how valuable of an asset Handzus was and he got a legitmate potential 30-goal scorer. No one knew he'd be this bad.


For defensemen I'd look at next year:
Kimmo Timonen if not then Brian Rafalski
Chris Phillips if not then Ossi Vaananen or Karlis Skrastins

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12-09-2006, 10:43 PM
  #202
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I'd be interested ... but I like Biron, who would be much cheaper and allow me to fill other holes.
i am not sure Biron is that much of an upgrade. He lost the job in Buffalo.

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12-09-2006, 10:44 PM
  #203
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Stevens probably wouldn't mind.
I'll take it at this point.

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12-10-2006, 07:30 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
There's probably only 4 goalies in the league who are 'big time' goalies to begin with due to the fact that so few are truly dominant.

John, you want Biron in here, what has he done that Niitty hasn't that he is handed the #1 job in camp and given such a contract? I wouldn't cry if he was here, but then again, the only time he's ever started was for bad Buffalo teams between Hasek and Ryan Miller.

You can also be assured that we won't get Souray. He wants to play out west. And no way would I give him $5M



If Clarke knew Calder would be this bad, you can bet your house Clarke wouldn't have done that trade. He knew how valuable of an asset Handzus was and he got a legitmate potential 30-goal scorer. No one knew he'd be this bad.


For defensemen I'd look at next year:
Kimmo Timonen if not then Brian Rafalski
Chris Phillips if not then Ossi Vaananen or Karlis Skrastins
There is only one true big time goalie in the league, Marty. All the rest are guys who can get hot for a few months or tops, one year. Luongo? I still think he is streaky. I would take him over Nitty but any goalie can get hot, they're all good goalies to get into the NHL. The goalie is not the biggest part of our problem. I don't think anyone could have predicted this team being this bad.

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12-10-2006, 09:33 AM
  #205
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i am not sure Biron is that much of an upgrade. He lost the job in Buffalo.
he didn't "lose" the job so much as get supplanted by a very very good goalie.

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12-10-2006, 10:28 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
There's probably only 4 goalies in the league who are 'big time' goalies to begin with due to the fact that so few are truly dominant.

John, you want Biron in here, what has he done that Niitty hasn't that he is handed the #1 job in camp and given such a contract? I wouldn't cry if he was here, but then again, the only time he's ever started was for bad Buffalo teams between Hasek and Ryan Miller.
Stop making excuses. If Niitty plays better than Brent Johnson we win that game. You can't be getting outplayed by Brent ****ing Johnson !!!

Biron is a better goalie than Niittymaki. End of story.

If we can get Giggy, I'd be all for that, but that probably isn't real likely at this point.

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12-10-2006, 11:31 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by King Fish View Post
There is only one true big time goalie in the league, Marty. All the rest are guys who can get hot for a few months or tops, one year. Luongo? I still think he is streaky. I would take him over Nitty but any goalie can get hot, they're all good goalies to get into the NHL. The goalie is not the biggest part of our problem. I don't think anyone could have predicted this team being this bad.
if someone had told me about the scoring struggles of the kids and the injuries we've seen... i would have predicted it. me and GKJ had a specific discussion this summer about the fact that this club was going to need to outscore opponents due to the lack of D. that relied HEAVILY on Umberger/Carter continuing their second half performance and Richards stepping up some.

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12-10-2006, 12:11 PM
  #208
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if someone had told me about the scoring struggles of the kids and the injuries we've seen... i would have predicted it. me and GKJ had a specific discussion this summer about the fact that this club was going to need to outscore opponents due to the lack of D. that relied HEAVILY on Umberger/Carter continuing their second half performance and Richards stepping up some.
Nobody expected the defense/goaltending to be great, and Niittymaki hasn't been the biggest problem with the team, but he hasn't been part of the solution either.

In order to have a successful season we needed the Carter, Calder, Richards and Umberger group to provide the secondary scoring. There was every reason to believe that those four would be able to score 90 goals .... and 100 should have been a distinct possibility.

We're now 35% of the way through the season and those four have 9 goals and been outscored by Viktor Kozlov.

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12-10-2006, 01:45 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Stop making excuses. If Niitty plays better than Brent Johnson we win that game. You can't be getting outplayed by Brent ****ing Johnson !!!

Biron is a better goalie than Niittymaki. End of story.

If we can get Giggy, I'd be all for that, but that probably isn't real likely at this point.
Brent Johnson didn't exactly set up a brick wall.


The biggest myth in hockey is that your goaltender has to be better than the other team's goaltender, when he actual reality is the goaltender has to give your team a chance to win, I've seen plenty of games over the past few years when the better goalie didn't win the game. Niitty gave up a bad goal, but the game was still tied in the 3rd period, and they had a chance to win the game. It's not excuses it's the reality of the position of the game.


Please explain why Biron is a better solution. For lack of a better term appeasing people around here who just like to dog the goalie because its easy to do, he could he another Cechmanek. Niittymaki has more carreer playoff minutes than Biron. No one knows how good Biron is because he's never played a game that's meant anything since 1999...when he was in the AHL.

How quickly we forget that 3 of 4 teams who went the futhest in the playoffs last year got there with their backup goalie.


Improve the team around him first and then if the craps the bed then you have a point, but to admonish Niittymaki for not being a big time goalie when he hasn't even been a starter for an entire season, that's like all the other people who looked at what happened in 2002 and blamed the goalie.


Everything that's happened this season, it's nothing to be shocked about.

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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
In order to have a successful season we needed the Carter, Calder, Richards and Umberger group to provide the secondary scoring. There was every reason to believe that those four would be able to score 90 goals .... and 100 should have been a distinct possibility.

We're now 35% of the way through the season and those four have 9 goals and been outscored by Viktor Kozlov.

Any team who decided to take 3 sophomores, who rarely repeat rookie success, and expect them to produce like seasoned veterans, deserves to lose. That's just poor management in my opinion. After picking up scoring help late in the offseason, I did think it was a possability, but when your defense is as horrible as it is, I don't care who the goalie is your team will stink.

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Originally Posted by King Fish View Post
There is only one true big time goalie in the league, Marty. All the rest are guys who can get hot for a few months or tops, one year. Luongo? I still think he is streaky. I would take him over Nitty but any goalie can get hot, they're all good goalies to get into the NHL. The goalie is not the biggest part of our problem. I don't think anyone could have predicted this team being this bad.
I'll take Kiprusoff too.

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12-10-2006, 01:47 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Brent Johnson didn't exactly set up a brick wall.

The biggest myth in hockey is that your goaltender has to be better than the other team's goaltender, when he actual reality is the goaltender has to give your team a chance to win, I've seen plenty of games over the past few years when the better goalie didn't win the game. Niitty gave up a bad goal, but the game was still tied in the 3rd period, and they had a chance to win the game. It's not excuses it's the reality of the position of the game.
Your goalies doesn't have to be better than the other teams goalie to win, but it certainly helps.

Johnson wasn't great last night, but he was better than Niittymaki.

Why are you continuing to make excuses for him ? He gave up one awful goal, and two other stopable goals last night.

This certainly isn't all his fault, but right now he's not playing any better than the rest of the team.

The forwards need to be better .. and they'll be looking to upgrade in the offseason.

The defense needs to be better and they'll be looking to upgrade in the offseason.

The goaltending needs to be better, and they should look to upgrade in the offseason.

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12-10-2006, 02:00 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Any team who decided to take 3 sophomores, who rarely repeat rookie success, and expect them to produce like seasoned veterans, deserves to lose. That's just poor management in my opinion. After picking up scoring help late in the offseason, I did think it was a possability, but when your defense is as horrible as it is, I don't care who the goalie is your team will stink.
I disagree whole heartedly. How about making the players responsible:

Carter scored 23 goals, while essentially missing the first month of the season with mono, and then getting 4th line minutes for most of the season.

Healthy at the beginning of the year, increased icetime and power play time, there is absolutely no reason to think he doesn't score a minimum of 25 goals, and really should have been 30+.

Umberger scores 20 goals after joining the team in November. His icetime was going to go up. 20 goals should have been expected, and very well may happen.

Kyle Calder was coming off seasons scoring 21 goals in just 66 games and then 26 goals a year ago. Yes, he was going to see a little bit less icetime, but he was also going to be surrounded by a better team. 20 was certainly expected, and 25 was a reasonable number to expect.

Mike Richards scored 11 goals last year, and with more icetime and better linemates, 15 should have been expected and 20 certainly not out of the question.

None of those expectations should have been unrealistic. Richards and Carter weren't 4th round picks that were big surprises a year ago. Both are/were considered big time propects that had succeeded and thrived at every level including the NHL.


I have absolutely no problem at all with the expectations placed on those four players coming into the season. Nothing unreasonable was expected of them.

With the additions of Sanderson and Robitaille, who have both played very well secondary scoring shouldn't have been an issue.

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12-10-2006, 02:39 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
I disagree whole heartedly. How about making the players responsible:

Carter scored 23 goals, while essentially missing the first month of the season with mono, and then getting 4th line minutes for most of the season.

Healthy at the beginning of the year, increased icetime and power play time, there is absolutely no reason to think he doesn't score a minimum of 25 goals, and really should have been 30+.

Umberger scores 20 goals after joining the team in November. His icetime was going to go up. 20 goals should have been expected, and very well may happen.

Kyle Calder was coming off seasons scoring 21 goals in just 66 games and then 26 goals a year ago. Yes, he was going to see a little bit less icetime, but he was also going to be surrounded by a better team. 20 was certainly expected, and 25 was a reasonable number to expect.

Mike Richards scored 11 goals last year, and with more icetime and better linemates, 15 should have been expected and 20 certainly not out of the question.

None of those expectations should have been unrealistic. Richards and Carter weren't 4th round picks that were big surprises a year ago. Both are/were considered big time propects that had succeeded and thrived at every level including the NHL.


I have absolutely no problem at all with the expectations placed on those four players coming into the season. Nothing unreasonable was expected of them.

With the additions of Sanderson and Robitaille, who have both played very well secondary scoring shouldn't have been an issue.

i would also note that these kids all were a year older than your normal 2nd year NHL player due to the lock-out. i wasn't expecting this team to be fantastic, but i was expecting it to put points on the board... hasn't happened.

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12-10-2006, 02:49 PM
  #213
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There's nothing wrong with your expectations, I had the same, and yes, they should be producting, but sophomore rarely do. They're sophomores but they're still very green - I think it's more mental than anything. I just beleive that it takes special players to tell them to go out and be an important player of the team when they're still learning what it takes to even be here in the first place. You can have those expectations and yet not have such pressure, there was no fall back plan should this have happened.

Randy Robitalle isn't someone you bring in and tell him to go out and score. He is a borderline NHL player. We could have had Brendan Shanahan at a not-so-terrible price who would also be the leader and de-facto captain that this team sorely needs. Geoff Sanderson isn't good enough to just go out and score because he's good enough to do it. If we're out of it, I'd trade him.

I don't make excuses for Niittymaki, I'm just not so quick to mortify him because it is clear what he is capable of, but as we discussed before, it takes bona fide franchise/potential hall of fame goalie for a goalie to play the way you need him to play in our situation, and at the stage he is in his career.

That said, we've also learned that you don't need a bona fide franchise goalie to be a great - even championship - team.

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12-10-2006, 03:02 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
There's nothing wrong with your expectations, I had the same, and yes, they should be producting, but sophomore rarely do. They're sophomores but they're still very green - I think it's more mental than anything. I just beleive that it takes special players to tell them to go out and be an important player of the team when they're still learning what it takes to even be here in the first place. You can have those expectations and yet not have such pressure, there was no fall back plan should this have happened.
They aren't 19 year olds. Richards and Carter will be 22 within two months, Umberger is 24 and Calder is 26. They also weren't being asked to carry the team, but they do need to produce.

Players their age are getting it done: Staal, Horton, Vanek, Michalek, Phaneuf, Parise, Seabrook, Getzlaff, Perry, Bergeron

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Randy Robitalle isn't someone you bring in and tell him to go out and score. He is a borderline NHL player. We could have had Brendan Shanahan at a not-so-terrible price who would also be the leader and de-facto captain that this team sorely needs. Geoff Sanderson isn't good enough to just go out and score because he's good enough to do it. If we're out of it, I'd trade him.
Shanny is making $4 million, and we didn't have that kind of room.

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I don't make excuses for Niittymaki, I'm just not so quick to mortify him because it is clear what he is capable of, but as we discussed before, it takes bona fide franchise/potential hall of fame goalie for a goalie to play the way you need him to play in our situation, and at the stage he is in his career.
What's clear that he's capable of ? He hasn't proven that he's capable of being a number one goalie on a playoff team in the NHL.

At this point nothing is clear when it comes to Niittymaki, and that's the issue. He'll likely get another 40 starts or so this year. If his play doesn't improve, I can't go into next year with him as a clear cut #1, if I think I'm going to be a solid playoff team.

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12-10-2006, 03:41 PM
  #215
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The Primeau situation handcuffed Clarke this summer. Clarke was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

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12-10-2006, 04:52 PM
  #216
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The Primeau situation handcuffed Clarke this summer. Clarke was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.
We'd still have Handzus if it wasn't for Primeau, in my opinion.

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12-10-2006, 08:48 PM
  #217
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We'd still have Handzus if it wasn't for Primeau, in my opinion.
yep, that trade doesn't happen if he knows Primeau isn't going to be here... i personally think he should have operated under that assumption, but due to the cap you have to make moves for financial reasons.

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12-11-2006, 12:06 AM
  #218
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At this point nothing is clear when it comes to Niittymaki, and that's the issue. He'll likely get another 40 starts or so this year. If his play doesn't improve, I can't go into next year with him as a clear cut #1, if I think I'm going to be a solid playoff team.
You might not have a choice. #1 goalies aren't available just because we need there to be one.


It is clear what Niittymaki is capable of. Just take a look at his resume. Everything he's ever done he left as a resounding success. The rush to find a #1 goalie could result in the team cutting loose the second goalie that should be getting more than one chance since Ron Hextall.

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The Primeau situation handcuffed Clarke this summer. Clarke was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.
I'm not putting money on it, and I'm not totally sure this will happen, but you watch, Primeau will try to come back next year.


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12-11-2006, 07:36 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It is clear what Niittymaki is capable of. Just take a look at his resume. Everything he's ever done he left as a resounding success. The rush to find a #1 goalie could result in the team cutting loose the second goalie that should be getting more than one chance since Ron Hextall.
What he's done in the NHL means a helluvalot more than what he did in the Olympics and the AHL, and to this point he's proven nothing in the NHL.

What I know at this point is that he can get hot for two week stretches of time. He's isn't overly consistent, makes a great save, but also has a habit of giving up soft goals.

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12-11-2006, 07:48 AM
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What he's done in the NHL means a helluvalot more than what he did in the Olympics and the AHL, and to this point he's proven nothing in the NHL.

What I know at this point is that he can get hot for two week stretches of time. He's isn't overly consistent, makes a great save, but also has a habit of giving up soft goals.
i would point out that tourney play (NHL playoffs included) is a horrible sample to base judgment on as well. Nitty has shown a knack for getting hot in tournaments, but that might just be random luck... isn't like he's played in 10 playoffs and always come through.

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12-11-2006, 04:25 PM
  #221
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What he's done in the NHL means a helluvalot more than what he did in the Olympics and the AHL, and to this point he's proven nothing in the NHL.

What I know at this point is that he can get hot for two week stretches of time. He's isn't overly consistent, makes a great save, but also has a habit of giving up soft goals.
Neither has Biron, so why the rush to run out and get him? At least Niitty has done something

The NHL may be the most important, but the Olympics is the greatest collection of teams by nation that there is. It is best in the world vs best in the world. Antero Niittymaki was considered to be the best player out of everyone that stepped on the ice during the Olympics. The Olympics aren't played for ***** and giggles. They don't mean nothing just because they weren't the NHL.

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i would point out that tourney play (NHL playoffs included) is a horrible sample to base judgment on as well. Nitty has shown a knack for getting hot in tournaments, but that might just be random luck... isn't like he's played in 10 playoffs and always come through.
Well by the standards being discussed here he won't even get 1 playoff we'll never know if he'd come through.


Patience with a goalie is premium. I stress how many times teams have given up on goalies and then smacked themselves on the forehead. It is stupid to get rid of the goalie when you stress a youth movement because you don't feel like waiting. That's the growing pains of developing a team from rock bottom. No one here who strictly watches the Flyers would know that because it's never happened.

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12-11-2006, 05:24 PM
  #222
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Neither has Biron, so why the rush to run out and get him? At least Niitty has done something

The NHL may be the most important, but the Olympics is the greatest collection of teams by nation that there is. It is best in the world vs best in the world. Antero Niittymaki was considered to be the best player out of everyone that stepped on the ice during the Olympics. The Olympics aren't played for ***** and giggles. They don't mean nothing just because they weren't the NHL.



Well by the standards being discussed here he won't even get 1 playoff we'll never know if he'd come through.


Patience with a goalie is premium. I stress how many times teams have given up on goalies and then smacked themselves on the forehead. It is stupid to get rid of the goalie when you stress a youth movement because you don't feel like waiting. That's the growing pains of developing a team from rock bottom. No one here who strictly watches the Flyers would know that because it's never happened.
he's going to be getting observation for 80+ games... i'm not giving up on him, i'm just not ready to buy in with Nitty at this point.

in what posts around here have i not sounded patient? i'm about as patient as possible... Nitty hasn't impressed me nearly as much as he's impressed others. i see a goalie that over-commits on a REGULAR basis and has a propensity for giving up weak goals. he's 26, not 20... which adds to my concern about him. doesn't mean he won't become a good goalie, but it isn't like he was drafted last year either.


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12-11-2006, 06:46 PM
  #223
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There's nothing wrong with your expectations, I had the same, and yes, they should be producting, but sophomore rarely do. They're sophomores but they're still very green - I think it's more mental than anything. I just beleive that it takes special players to tell them to go out and be an important player of the team when they're still learning what it takes to even be here in the first place. You can have those expectations and yet not have such pressure, there was no fall back plan should this have happened.

Randy Robitalle isn't someone you bring in and tell him to go out and score. He is a borderline NHL player. We could have had Brendan Shanahan at a not-so-terrible price who would also be the leader and de-facto captain that this team sorely needs. Geoff Sanderson isn't good enough to just go out and score because he's good enough to do it. If we're out of it, I'd trade him.

I don't make excuses for Niittymaki, I'm just not so quick to mortify him because it is clear what he is capable of, but as we discussed before, it takes bona fide franchise/potential hall of fame goalie for a goalie to play the way you need him to play in our situation, and at the stage he is in his career.

That said, we've also learned that you don't need a bona fide franchise goalie to be a great - even championship - team.
I hear you, but I think you are going a little overboard on Robitaille. The guy is a good 2nd line playmaker IMO, and has shown that with 40 points in 67 games last year and has been arguably our most consistent player this year.

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12-11-2006, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Neither has Biron, so why the rush to run out and get him? At least Niitty has done something

The NHL may be the most important, but the Olympics is the greatest collection of teams by nation that there is. It is best in the world vs best in the world. Antero Niittymaki was considered to be the best player out of everyone that stepped on the ice during the Olympics. The Olympics aren't played for ***** and giggles. They don't mean nothing just because they weren't the NHL. .
Biron has been a better NHL goalie. End of story.

Niitty was not the best player in the tournament. He played well, but he wasn't even the best player on his team.

I also haven't said I'm getting rid of Niittymaki. He'll get an equal chance to win the #1 job, but he'll have to outplay Biron to do so. If he he superior to Biron as you seem to believe he'll take over the #1 job again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Well by the standards being discussed here he won't even get 1 playoff we'll never know if he'd come through.

Patience with a goalie is premium. I stress how many times teams have given up on goalies and then smacked themselves on the forehead. It is stupid to get rid of the goalie when you stress a youth movement because you don't feel like waiting. That's the growing pains of developing a team from rock bottom. No one here who strictly watches the Flyers would know that because it's never happened.
What big time goalies have teams given up on, that the ultimately really regretted ??? It doesn't happen all that often.

The team next year should be and will be expected to make the playoffs. This isn't going to be the Penguins tanking for the next 5 years.

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