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Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Centers)

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Old
10-26-2013, 08:45 PM
  #326
Canadiens1958
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Goal Differential

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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Goal differential is what matters. A highly offensive player/team is almost always going to give up more goals than a highly defensive team. The question is whether the offensive player's style results in a net positive goal differential not a reduction in goals against.
Net positive goal differential - another way of saying winning is better than losing.

How is this net positive goal differential calculated? Raw? Positive %? Pythagorean?

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10-26-2013, 08:49 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
You are taking a window 1956-57 to 1966-67 that fits certain players but does not fit others, namely Stan Mikita, Phil Esposito, Bryan Trottier and Bobby Clarke who were as or more prolific on the PP in a similar time frame window.
Yes, that's why I said "of his era."

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10-26-2013, 09:00 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Net positive goal differential - another way of saying winning is better than losing.

How is this net positive goal differential calculated? Raw? Positive %? Pythagorean?
R-on vs. R-off would likely be a good start

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10-26-2013, 09:25 PM
  #329
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His Era

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes, that's why I said "of his era."
Arbitrary window.

Beliveau's Era in the NHL was from 1953-1971. Might as well look at 1961-62 thru 1970-71 and Hull, Mikita, Esposito, Howe outperform Beliveau on the PP. Yvan Cournoyer alone in seven seasons(1964-65 thru 1970-71) scored 89 PP goals to Beliveau's 50 in the same seven season window.

The purpose of the table you linked was to show Henri Richard's strengths.

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10-26-2013, 09:34 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Arbitrary window.

Beliveau's Era in the NHL was from 1953-1971. Might as well look at 1961-62 thru 1970-71 and Hull, Mikita, Esposito, Howe outperform Beliveau on the PP. Yvan Cournoyer alone in seven seasons(1964-65 thru 1970-71) scored 89 PP goals to Beliveau's 50 in the same seven season window.

The purpose of the table you linked was to show Henri Richard's strengths.
Beliveau's statistical prime was clearly 1954-55 to 1965-66. So no, you might not as well look at a time period that contains mostly the time after Beliveau's prime. At this point, I have no idea what you're even trying to prove.

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10-26-2013, 09:48 PM
  #331
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PP Dominant

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Beliveau's statistical prime was clearly 1954-55 to 1965-66. So no, you might not as well look at a time period that contains mostly the time after Beliveau's prime. At this point, I have no idea what you're even trying to prove.
You made the claim about Jean Beliveau being dominant on the PP. You provided a select 10 season window featuring a table built tp show Henri Richard's ES prowess. Now you are talking statistical prime. Previously you were trying to sell a transition argument for the 1961-64 playoff period.

I am not trying to prove anything, just debunking your claim.

Back to the key point. Your initial window works because the nature of the window conveniently excludes the majority of PP performers because they only played a segment of the window.

Specifically it seems that you may have found a table that supports your view at first glance but would not surprise me if during the window Jean Beliveau never lead the NHL in PP points during the period in question.

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10-26-2013, 10:25 PM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
You made the claim about Jean Beliveau being dominant on the PP. You provided a select 10 season window featuring a table built tp show Henri Richard's ES prowess. Now you are talking statistical prime. Previously you were trying to sell a transition argument for the 1961-64 playoff period.

I am not trying to prove anything, just debunking your claim.

Back to the key point. Your initial window works because the nature of the window conveniently excludes the majority of PP performers because they only played a segment of the window.

Specifically it seems that you may have found a table that supports your view at first glance but would not surprise me if during the window Jean Beliveau never lead the NHL in PP points during the period in question.
Nothing you provided refutes the statistical fact that Beliveau scored a higher percentage of his offense on the PP than any other top players of his age group.

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10-27-2013, 03:44 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by ChiTownPhilly View Post
B] Like sentinel, I don't really get the case for Clarke over Trottier- really I don't. Trottier played more games, scored more goals, dished more assists, and scored at a higher rate than Clarke. Clarke had three 100 point-seasons- Trottier had 5-in-a-row. Also (more of a "holy [bleep]" cherry-pick stat than anything else), during that half-decade span, he averaged a 23% shooting percentage. When I point things like this out in my current region-of-residence, I'm usually accused of slamming Clarke. Not my intention- Clarke is safely in the top-10 of all-time at center... but better than Trottier? Just one punter's opinion, granted-- but I don't think so.[/COLOR]
Clarke didn't quite have a Bossy (only 'poor man's Bossy' = Leach) as a linemate, though. Or a Potvin as a defenseman. Just sayin'.

Not that I'd choose Clarke over Trottier either.

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10-27-2013, 08:52 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Then explain why the Oilers and Kings were giving up so many goals against in the little time that the other team was fortunate to have the puck when Gretzky and to an extent Coffey, gave up possession.

Likewise the Penguins when Lemieux, later with Jagr, when the other team was fortunate to have the puck they sure scored a lot for limited puck possession.
Good point.

Seems like most posters here don't want to admit how little effort Gretzky & Mario (and Coffey in terms of a defenseman) put into defensive play.

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10-27-2013, 09:17 AM
  #335
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I don't understand criticizing Gretzky for his defensive play. If you are able to put up 200 points in a season, than why should you even worry about defense. Same with Lemieux, and basically a good majority of Art Ross winners.

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10-27-2013, 09:24 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by bigbuffalo313 View Post
I don't understand criticizing Gretzky for his defensive play. If you are able to put up 200 points in a season, than why should you even worry about defense. Same with Lemieux, and basically a good majority of Art Ross winners.
centers have a big amount of defensive responsibilities. ranking them as centers is a different project than as the best players i feel, while mario was probably the better player, i feel that beliveau was the prototypical center.

im happy im not the one responsible for picking X over Y... im just a big fan of this section who reads

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10-27-2013, 09:27 AM
  #337
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No one knew how or when to pass the puck than Gretz. I was a hockey player myself, a phyisical defenseman average peewee player in 1982 who went on to idolize Coffey and Messier and begrudgedly admit Gretzky the greatest player I've ever seen simply because he had the consistent knack of doing the right thing at the right time, in a sublime way only equalled by Bourque and Lemieux in my lifetime (no one today demonstrates as consistent an acumen in terms of decision making).

Gretzky, Oates, Federko, Nieuwendyk and Forsberg in terms of how to play the puck when the play heated up in traffic!

Players like Sedin, Giroux, Thornton and Fedorov thankfully don't belong in the coversation yet.

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10-27-2013, 09:29 AM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbuffalo313 View Post
I don't understand criticizing Gretzky for his defensive play. If you are able to put up 200 points in a season, than why should you even worry about defense. Same with Lemieux, and basically a good majority of Art Ross winners.
Kind of a snarky response, but they can't score without the puck. The players that were able to get it back "better" - so to speak - like Beliveau had [this] amount of value to their teams. Players like Lemieux or Esposito had [that] value to their teams. And you fill in the blanks there...

A goal prevented is difficult to measure considering there is no stat for it. But it's just as important - maybe even more important - than a goal scored.

Completeness of a center, or any position for that matter, is measured largely by proper talent evaluation. Players that are well-rounded are often more adaptable to various situations/circumstances, adaptable players often better exhibit sustainability. Translates to other positions as well.

Though, like Dominik Hasek, some players are just so above and beyond in what they do, how they do it, it becomes tough to ignore. But this should be reserved for supernova players. 99 and 66 fit that bill, in my opinion. They will be my #1 and #2 centers when I vote and I don't believe that opinion was ever really challenged in any meaningful way.

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10-27-2013, 09:32 AM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbuffalo313 View Post
I don't understand criticizing Gretzky for his defensive play. If you are able to put up 200 points in a season, than why should you even worry about defense. Same with Lemieux, and basically a good majority of Art Ross winners.
This was my thought exactly after reading through the last few pages. Defensive play tends to get fetishized a bit around here but, at the end of the day, a player should be judged on whether or not they contributed to wins. Not how sexy an excel spreasheet their career creates.

Knocking a 2PPG+ Mario Lemieux for not backchecking is like criticizing Usain Bolt for not tying his shoes properly.

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10-27-2013, 09:35 AM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Kind of a snarky response, but they can't score without the puck. The players that were able to get it back "better" - so to speak - like Beliveau had [this] amount of value to their teams. Players like Lemieux or Esposito had [that] value to their teams. And you fill in the blanks there...

A goal prevented is difficult to measure considering there is no stat for it. But it's just as important - maybe even more important - than a goal scored.

Completeness of a center, or any position for that matter, is measured largely by proper talent evaluation. Players that are well-rounded are often more adaptable to various situations/circumstances, adaptable players often better exhibit sustainability. Translates to other positions as well.

Though, like Dominik Hasek, some players are just so above and beyond in what they do, how they do it, it becomes tough to ignore. But this should be reserved for supernova players. 99 and 66 fit that bill, in my opinion. They will be my #1 and #2 centers when I vote and I don't believe that opinion was ever really challenged in any meaningful way.
Well said.

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10-27-2013, 09:37 AM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbuffalo313 View Post
I don't understand criticizing Gretzky for his defensive play. If you are able to put up 200 points in a season, than why should you even worry about defense. Same with Lemieux, and basically a good majority of Art Ross winners.
I would not put any other Art Ross winner on the same level as Gretzky & Mario either defensively or offensively.

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10-27-2013, 10:18 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
This was my thought exactly after reading through the last few pages. Defensive play tends to get fetishized a bit around here but, at the end of the day, a player should be judged on whether or not they contributed to wins. Not how sexy an excel spreasheet their career creates.

Knocking a 2PPG+ Mario Lemieux for not backchecking is like criticizing Usain Bolt for not tying his shoes properly.
Totally agree. And when you see that the stars of the '80s Oilers occupy 3 of the top 6 spots for career SH goals, it's kind of obvious to see that offense as the best defense translated into plenty of wins for them. Mario in the top 4 despite having played only roughly half the games compared to some of the other leaders (and having led the league 3 times in SH goals) represents similar "transcending" of "traditional" defensive responsibilities, imo.

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10-27-2013, 10:36 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Clarke didn't quite have a Bossy (only 'poor man's Bossy' = Leach) as a linemate, though. Or a Potvin as a defenseman. Just sayin'.

Not that I'd choose Clarke over Trottier either.
No Barber and Leach weren't Bossy but they where a pretty good set of wingers and did help bump up Clarke's production from the 90 point range to the 120ish range for those 2 stellar seasons.

Leach and his alcohol issues are well documented by the chemistry he had as Clarke's triggerman are also well documented.

Clarke's Dmen were Dionne like though but the style of play and makeup of the team was also well suited to help Clarke as well, ie his supporting cast didn't hurt in the more physical playoffs.

There was a comment about Dionne's poor international stats in another thread and Clarke's stats are much worse.

Even if Clarke is viewed by some as the 2nd best player in the 72 series for Canada that's really not saying a lot as that team really had a poor performance if one really stops to think about it.

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10-27-2013, 11:37 AM
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Kind of a snarky response, but they can't score without the puck. The players that were able to get it back "better" - so to speak - like Beliveau had [this] amount of value to their teams. Players like Lemieux or Esposito had [that] value to their teams. And you fill in the blanks there...

A goal prevented is difficult to measure considering there is no stat for it. But it's just as important - maybe even more important - than a goal scored.

Completeness of a center, or any position for that matter, is measured largely by proper talent evaluation. Players that are well-rounded are often more adaptable to various situations/circumstances, adaptable players often better exhibit sustainability. Translates to other positions as well.

Though, like Dominik Hasek, some players are just so above and beyond in what they do, how they do it, it becomes tough to ignore. But this should be reserved for supernova players. 99 and 66 fit that bill, in my opinion. They will be my #1 and #2 centers when I vote and I don't believe that opinion was ever really challenged in any meaningful way.

Even though I don't agree with Mario at #2 this is a very good post.

IMO better 2 way play over a long period of time matters more than scoring an extra 2,3,4 or 5 points in a blowout win.

Wayne is #1 because of his ability to score over such a long period of time and Mario gets bumped down because of a lack of longevity.

Maybe many people here are putting Mario at #2 because of his peak play and not his overall career. Will they be consistent with other players the same way though?

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10-27-2013, 11:38 AM
  #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Kind of a snarky response, but they can't score without the puck. The players that were able to get it back "better" - so to speak - like Beliveau had [this] amount of value to their teams. Players like Lemieux or Esposito had [that] value to their teams. And you fill in the blanks there...

A goal prevented is difficult to measure considering there is no stat for it. But it's just as important - maybe even more important - than a goal scored.

Completeness of a center, or any position for that matter, is measured largely by proper talent evaluation. Players that are well-rounded are often more adaptable to various situations/circumstances, adaptable players often better exhibit sustainability. Translates to other positions as well.

Though, like Dominik Hasek, some players are just so above and beyond in what they do, how they do it, it becomes tough to ignore. But this should be reserved for supernova players. 99 and 66 fit that bill, in my opinion. They will be my #1 and #2 centers when I vote and I don't believe that opinion was ever really challenged in any meaningful way.
The last paragraph is what I am talking about. They are is much further above the others that defensive play shouldn't matter, yet people still criticize these two.

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10-27-2013, 11:41 AM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I would not put any other Art Ross winner on the same level as Gretzky & Mario either defensively or offensively.
I know that they are light years ahead if the others, but there aren't many seasons where I would take a Selke winner over an Art Ross winner

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10-27-2013, 11:57 AM
  #347
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Originally Posted by bigbuffalo313 View Post
I know that they are light years ahead if the others, but there aren't many seasons where I would take a Selke winner over an Art Ross winner
Yeah and i think that is becouse of that forwards have defenders to back them up with the defensive work, while finding and giving a Selke winner elite offensive help on his line is not all that easy, especially if the Selke winner is highly limited offensively and not being able to help much. Playing defense is not the forwards main job, scoring is. But when talking about Pavel Datsyuk for example, then of course his relatively high scoring becomes a great total package, with some people actually thinking he's on Crosbys and Ovechkins level, and he's at least very close.

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10-27-2013, 11:59 AM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Even though I don't agree with Mario at #2 this is a very good post.

IMO better 2 way play over a long period of time matters more than scoring an extra 2,3,4 or 5 points in a blowout win.

Wayne is #1 because of his ability to score over such a long period of time and Mario gets bumped down because of a lack of longevity.

Maybe many people here are putting Mario at #2 because of his peak play and not his overall career. Will they be consistent with other players the same way though?
His peak is 6 Art Ross Trophies, most coming in the vaunted integrated NHL era. If someone else could claim this I'm sure they'd get the same treatment.

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10-27-2013, 12:04 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
This was my thought exactly after reading through the last few pages. Defensive play tends to get fetishized a bit around here but, at the end of the day, a player should be judged on whether or not they contributed to wins. Not how sexy an excel spreasheet their career creates.

Knocking a 2PPG+ Mario Lemieux for not backchecking is like criticizing Usain Bolt for not tying his shoes properly.
Well square this circle for me then, in 95 without Mario the Pens have a .635 winning %, in 96 with his Hart 161 point season it's .622%.

I'm not saying that Mario didn't have a very good season but in terms of "dominance" his 96 season is really over rated here.

To categorize Mario as a dominant player for his entire career is simply not supported by the facts, unless one is only talking exclusively of offense and not the overall impact. And it's overall impact that really should matter here when evaluating Mario right?

From 86-93 one can say Mario was a 2 PPG player whose offense was enough to overcome his lack of defense.

That's over a period of 504 games, outside of that time period his overall impact, in your terms of making a difference in winning games, wasn't elite.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 10-27-2013 at 12:10 PM.
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10-27-2013, 12:09 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by bigbuffalo313 View Post
I know that they are light years ahead if the others, but there aren't many seasons where I would take a Selke winner over an Art Ross winner
Well, Fedorov in 1993-94, but that's largely because he finished 2nd in scoring.

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Originally Posted by Rob Scuderi View Post
His peak is 6 Art Ross Trophies, most coming in the vaunted integrated NHL era. If someone else could claim this I'm sure they'd get the same treatment.
Exactly. Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux were guaranteed sure bets to win the Art Ross Trophy by wide margins when healthy, unless competing against each other. No other players in NHL history can say that.

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