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Old
10-26-2013, 10:53 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Flyerss View Post
Coyotes guys are willing to trade Yandle for Voracek
Josi, salomaki and a second round pick for voracek and meszaros

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10-26-2013, 12:44 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Vorachek's scoring clip last year was better than anyone we've had in SIX years. Have to go back to Arnott of '07 to find a matching pace (not better). So I don't think it's fair to him to lump him with everyone else. Granted, he's no Sidney Crosby-- we won't get an elite forward unless we are trading Weber and/or Jones.

What if Josi is going to be plagued by concussions for big parts of his career? How much his 30 million dollar contract is insured?

I don't know the answers to the questions. But if there's even some legitimate concern over Josi's future health, we should deal him while we can-- especially now with Jones in the picture. We've seen too many of our valuable assets go to zero for various reasons.
What if Voracek suddenly has a couple of concussions? Or just one that is severe enough to end his career? The "what if" game goes all sorts of ways.

My issue with giving up Josi for Voracek right now is we will be relying on Jones and Ekholm to continue playing just as they have been. I hope that we are in a position to trade Josi simply because it means we are once against stacked on the blueline, but doing so right now to try to fix the offense is a pretty big risk. Honestly, I don't even think Voracek would thrive here, and despite his great half of a season last year he isn't proven to be anything more than a 50 point player yet. His career scoring is a bit lower than Martin Erat's. Would anyone here trade Josi for Erat?

Also, the proposal to send Josi+ to Philly for Voracek and Mezaros wouldn't work. We are taking back entirely too much salary. Cap issues kill that deal.

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10-26-2013, 02:01 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
What if Voracek suddenly has a couple of concussions? Or just one that is severe enough to end his career? The "what if" game goes all sorts of ways.

My issue with giving up Josi for Voracek right now is we will be relying on Jones and Ekholm to continue playing just as they have been. I hope that we are in a position to trade Josi simply because it means we are once against stacked on the blueline, but doing so right now to try to fix the offense is a pretty big risk. Honestly, I don't even think Voracek would thrive here, and despite his great half of a season last year he isn't proven to be anything more than a 50 point player yet. His career scoring is a bit lower than Martin Erat's. Would anyone here trade Josi for Erat?

Also, the proposal to send Josi+ to Philly for Voracek and Mezaros wouldn't work. We are taking back entirely too much salary. Cap issues kill that deal.
I see what your saying about putting a hole on the defense by trading josi, but we are playing great without him now. And if we did make this move, then we could move one of our forwards to bring back a top four defenseman. But comparing voracek to erat is not fair because erat is like ten years older, voracek has way more potential.

If meszaros brings back to much cap hit for us we can always look into read, grossman, etc as other possible returns from Philly for dmen.

Someone said we should trade josi with a first and a too prospect to get a top three guy. Well my question is who are you going to get? And who's available.
I think josi vs voracek is fairly even and this way we save a top prospect and first round pick.

I really think voracek develops into a 70 point guy at least. He has so many tools and is a big dude. He would be the centrepiece of our offense.

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10-26-2013, 02:34 PM
  #29
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I don't know if we have enough depth to start trading defensemen off, we were all looking to add defense in the offseason.

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10-26-2013, 03:28 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I don't know if we have enough depth to start trading defensemen off, we were all looking to add defense in the offseason.
Trade one of our top six current forwards for a top four defenseman after we make the voracek trade. I said that in my previous post. We will be overstocked in forwards anyways, makes perfect sense.

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10-26-2013, 03:28 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I don't know if we have enough depth to start trading defensemen off, we were all looking to add defense in the offseason.
Exactly. Bartley is a marginal 6/7 guy. Trade any D man and we are one injury from disaster, even if Josi returns soon and especially if Josi is the o e traded.

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10-26-2013, 05:48 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
What if Voracek suddenly has a couple of concussions? Or just one that is severe enough to end his career? The "what if" game goes all sorts of ways.

My issue with giving up Josi for Voracek right now is we will be relying on Jones and Ekholm to continue playing just as they have been. I hope that we are in a position to trade Josi simply because it means we are once against stacked on the blueline, but doing so right now to try to fix the offense is a pretty big risk. Honestly, I don't even think Voracek would thrive here, and despite his great half of a season last year he isn't proven to be anything more than a 50 point player yet. His career scoring is a bit lower than Martin Erat's. Would anyone here trade Josi for Erat?

Also, the proposal to send Josi+ to Philly for Voracek and Mezaros wouldn't work. We are taking back entirely too much salary. Cap issues kill that deal.
The "what if" game becomes much more applicable when someone is on their 5th concussion.

There are no moves that can be made now that will make us a contending team. Our roster will have holes anyway you slice it.

I'm just worried we may see another asset waste away with Josi. And if we have an opportunity to get a decent top 3 (6 at worst) center, than I'd jump on it. It's a major hole on our team.

No one should know Josi's concussion issues better than our mgmt. If it is a legitimate concern, I'd certainly shop him. But he already the damaged goods tag so his value isn't going to be sky high. And that's the same with Vorachek-- having 0 goals right now is not helping his potential trade value.

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10-26-2013, 06:37 PM
  #33
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We do not have a deep blueline right now; we're playing three rookies / near-rookies. I don't understand the Josi / Klein proposals that have been floating around lately. We have nothing of note to move right now and when was the last time Poile made a major trade? Frankly the Erat trade was one of the largest he's ever made. Standing pat is my expectation and hope.

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10-26-2013, 07:56 PM
  #34
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I've said it twice already, if we traded josi or whoever to bring in voracek. Then our overloaded forward group could spare one in a trade for a top four defenseman.

Then voracek takes that guys place, and we build our offense around voracek and forsberg.

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10-26-2013, 07:59 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
I've said it twice already, if we traded josi or whoever to bring in voracek. Then our overloaded forward group could spare one in a trade for a top four defenseman.

Then voracek takes that guys place, and we build our offense around voracek and forsberg.
Then the magic unicorns ride the rainbows to the land of free beer.

We don't have the defensive depth of three to four years ago. We lack the type forward that brings in a top four d-man in return. If the simplistic logic used to justify these trade proposals worked in the real world, the trades would have happened long ago.

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10-26-2013, 09:14 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Then the magic unicorns ride the rainbows to the land of free beer.

We don't have the defensive depth of three to four years ago. We lack the type forward that brings in a top four d-man in return. If the simplistic logic used to justify these trade proposals worked in the real world, the trades would have happened long ago.
I don't think many here are suggesting trading Josi or Klein this very second. In the near future, between this season and 2015-16 we'll probably see someone on our top 4 moved. It's quicker to make a cup contender if you're doing it on your computer.

Once we've solidified our top four with Weber-Jones, Klein, Ekholm, and if Josi is still playing the way he was last year we grab a nice forward with our extras.

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10-26-2013, 09:58 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Soundgarden View Post
I don't think many here are suggesting trading Josi or Klein this very second. In the near future, between this season and 2015-16 we'll probably see someone on our top 4 moved. It's quicker to make a cup contender if you're doing it on your computer.

Once we've solidified our top four with Weber-Jones, Klein, Ekholm, and if Josi is still playing the way he was last year we grab a nice forward with our extras.
What extras? Bartley? If Josi comes back healthy he outshines Ekholm any day.

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10-26-2013, 10:07 PM
  #38
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Agree, healthy Josi>Ekholm any day.

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10-27-2013, 10:02 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Then the magic unicorns ride the rainbows to the land of free beer.

We don't have the defensive depth of three to four years ago. We lack the type forward that brings in a top four d-man in return. If the simplistic logic used to justify these trade proposals worked in the real world, the trades would have happened long ago.

So we trade josi for voracek and then need defense. Well with voracek in the lineup as our offense centrepiece as I said we can look to move a forward we don't need anymore due to arrival of voracek.

You say we don't have one single forward that is worth a top four defense?!

Maybe you should stay off your magic unicorn and focus more on reality of the situation. We easily could spare a top six forward for a top four dman if we brought in voracek.

And like soundgarden said, we are not saying make this move today, all in time.

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10-27-2013, 10:49 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
You say we don't have one single forward that is worth a top four defense?!
Not one that the Preds can afford to get rid of without ending up weaker in the bargain.


EDIT: And, of course, this is still blithely assuming Voracek would be acquirable at all.

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10-27-2013, 11:34 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Not one that the Preds can afford to get rid of without ending up weaker in the bargain.


EDIT: And, of course, this is still blithely assuming Voracek would be acquirable at all.
All trade proposal threads are nothing but 100% assumptions and fantasy world talk soooooo I know what you're saying.

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10-27-2013, 12:51 PM
  #42
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Not one that the Preds can afford to get rid of without ending up weaker in the bargain.


EDIT: And, of course, this is still blithely assuming Voracek would be acquirable at all.
I don't understand what you mean.

Example: we trade josi for voracek
Then
We trade say bourque/fisher/Cullen (examples) and get a top 4 defenseman back.

So hypothetically we would lose josi and a top six forward and in return we would get voracek and a top four dman.

With jones, weber, Klein, ekholm, and a newly acquired top four dman our defense is still very impressive. But more importantly, we finally have a young offensive weapon that has proven what he is capable of in the NHL and we can build the offense around him and forsberg and hopefully even Wilson.

Our defense is simply awesome currently, but our offense is just brutal. So making these two moves would make a ton of sense, as long as we could find a team wanting one of our current top six forwards for a top four dman. Which I'm sure we can find. It's not exactly a where's Waldo search lol.

Still having Klein, weber, jones and the new guy in our top is pretty damn solid! And would make us more of a contender now that we can finally score. Imagine being down by one goal in a playoff game with a minute left and bring able to have voracek and forsberg out there, rather than fisher and forsberg. Or any other forward we have and forsberg. I like the sounds of that.

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10-27-2013, 03:04 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
I don't understand what you mean.

Example: we trade josi for voracek
Then
We trade say bourque/fisher/Cullen (examples) and get a top 4 defenseman back.

So hypothetically we would lose josi and a top six forward and in return we would get voracek and a top four dman.

With jones, weber, Klein, ekholm, and a newly acquired top four dman our defense is still very impressive. But more importantly, we finally have a young offensive weapon that has proven what he is capable of in the NHL and we can build the offense around him and forsberg and hopefully even Wilson.

Our defense is simply awesome currently, but our offense is just brutal. So making these two moves would make a ton of sense, as long as we could find a team wanting one of our current top six forwards for a top four dman. Which I'm sure we can find. It's not exactly a where's Waldo search lol.

Still having Klein, weber, jones and the new guy in our top is pretty damn solid! And would make us more of a contender now that we can finally score. Imagine being down by one goal in a playoff game with a minute left and bring able to have voracek and forsberg out there, rather than fisher and forsberg. Or any other forward we have and forsberg. I like the sounds of that.
As dulzhok accurately stated earlier, the difference between us being a contender and not is not a single guy that has had one almost-PPG season. It may be a start, but it's not a solution, and that's ignoring the downgrade we'll experience on defense going from Josi to this hypothetical top 4 d-man.

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10-27-2013, 03:05 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
I don't understand what you mean.

Example: we trade josi for voracek
Then
We trade say bourque/fisher/Cullen (examples) and get a top 4 defenseman back.

So hypothetically we would lose josi and a top six forward and in return we would get voracek and a top four dman.
In theory, sure. In practice, it doesn't work that way.

Philly's blueline is in a state such that they have a few washed-up vets and too many kids still learning the job. Josi would be potentially welcome while healthy, but that's it - he wouldn't be a savior. Certainly not enough for Voracek straight up, considering that Voracek and Giroux did so well together last year.
(Consider also the response that such speculation is getting in this T&R thread...)

As for trading Bourque, or Fisher, or Cullen... well, you *might* get a top-4 defenseman, but the emphasis would be on the "4". Certainly not someone anywhere near Josi's upside. The going rate for top-4 defensemen in exchange for forwards is usually someone who can at least pot 15 goals or more. The only guy in that group who meets that criteria is Fisher, and I think that would be a Very Bad Move for the Preds.

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With jones, weber, Klein, ekholm, and a newly acquired top four dman our defense is still very impressive. But more importantly, we finally have a young offensive weapon that has proven what he is capable of in the NHL and we can build the offense around him and forsberg and hopefully even Wilson.
As one who is very familiar with Voracek and how he plays the game, trust me - he'd basically be Erat 2.0. Very valuable, but not a star and not a go-to weapon. He's not a go-to weapon in Philly either, for that matter; he just plays really damn well with Claude Giroux.

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Our defense is simply awesome currently, but our offense is just brutal. So making these two moves would make a ton of sense, as long as we could find a team wanting one of our current top six forwards for a top four dman. Which I'm sure we can find. It's not exactly a where's Waldo search lol.
Hon? There's lots of teams searching for exactly that with exactly those requirements. Look at Detroit's efforts to replace Quincey, for example. It is not nearly as simple as you blithely assume.

(And last I checked, the defense is having severe depth issues as is. The top pairing is great, and the second pairing is doing well, but the third... Oh, the third. )

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10-27-2013, 05:31 PM
  #45
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All I am saying is that we have a lot more talented players on blueline, and really nobody on forwards outside of hopefully forsberg and maybe Wilson. I think we can spare some d for some o. And if we could get an offensive weapon like voracek why the hell not?? Maybe we could work something not I voicing josi, who knows, but I'm sure a deal could be had for voracek. He would help us score which is what we desperately need and have needed for a long time. So why not finally make a move?

Especially when we thought we were getting one of the big forwards from this past draft but instead got even more deep at defenseman in Seth.

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10-27-2013, 06:21 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
What extras? Bartley? If Josi comes back healthy he outshines Ekholm any day.
I'm talking two to three seasons from now. Once Ekholm solidifies himself as a top 4 guy, can't forget that he's in the top 4 in rookie TOI either, we can afford to move someone. Josi might make the most sense when that happens, Weber will be in his prime, and Jones will be breaking out while Klein is Klein the whole time.

Josi, if he continues playing at the level he was at, would probably bring in a great young forward like Vorachek, or one of the Edmonton kids, while Ekholm, Bartley, Ellis, whoever we have in 2-3 years gets a lesser forward or a boom or bust prospect project.

Now, I'm not saying we trade him off now, or as soon as he gets back, but in the future his name might make the most sense.

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10-27-2013, 06:40 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Soundgarden View Post
I'm talking two to three seasons from now. Once Ekholm solidifies himself as a top 4 guy, can't forget that he's in the top 4 in rookie TOI either, we can afford to move someone. Josi might make the most sense when that happens, Weber will be in his prime, and Jones will be breaking out while Klein is Klein the whole time.

Josi, if he continues playing at the level he was at, would probably bring in a great young forward like Vorachek, or one of the Edmonton kids, while Ekholm, Bartley, Ellis, whoever we have in 2-3 years gets a lesser forward or a boom or bust prospect project.

Now, I'm not saying we trade him off now, or as soon as he gets back, but in the future his name might make the most sense.
Ekholm is getting that ice time out of necessity, not because he is a top 4 d-man. Injuries and a lack of organizational depth on the blueline now have him playing a pairing higher than he should. Of 31 goals allowed by the Preds, Ekholm was on the ice for 12 of them (8 ES, 4 PK). Bartley is looking like a #6/7 d-man right now and Ellis is a bottom pairing guy with unrealized offensive upside. We no longer have the stocked pipe to the blueline of five years ago. They've all either made the big club, moved on, or busted (sometimes all three ... i.e. Blum).

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10-27-2013, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
All I am saying is that we have a lot more talented players on blueline, and really nobody on forwards outside of hopefully forsberg and maybe Wilson. I think we can spare some d for some o. And if we could get an offensive weapon like voracek why the hell not?? Maybe we could work something not I voicing josi, who knows, but I'm sure a deal could be had for voracek. He would help us score which is what we desperately need and have needed for a long time. So why not finally make a move?
Because the moves aren't actually there. You're chasing mirages.

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Especially when we thought we were getting one of the big forwards from this past draft but instead got even more deep at defenseman in Seth.
...and with that, the true motivation for this crusade comes out. Thanks for playing.

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10-27-2013, 07:43 PM
  #49
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Voracek is not the freaking answer. He's a mid tier player. We have those. Sure, he may be better than what we have but not by a landslide. We need elite players. If we're trading any of Josi, Weber or Jones it's to get a top 3 forward, not another run of the mill forward. We need game breakers, guys that can change the game all by themselves and make those around them better, Voracek is not that type of guy. Oh my freaking lord.

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10-27-2013, 07:50 PM
  #50
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Voracek is not the freaking answer. He's a mid tier player. We have those. Sure, he may be better than what we have but not by a landslide. We need elite players. If we're trading any of Josi, Weber or Jones it's to get a top 3 forward, not another run of the mill forward. We need game breakers, guys that can change the game all by themselves and make those around them better, Voracek is not that type of guy. Oh my freaking lord.
He is still pouting that Barkov didn't fall to us.

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